My agave spirit

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Re: My agave spirit

Post by 8Ball »

pope wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:31 am 8Ball plenty hot these days - did you get your 21 Missions batch fermenting or is the finished product the one you put needles in? I've been removing the 2020 dust from my garage and thinking of getting things going again. With everything going on I quit cold turkey so I've got some agave and molasses vinegar I have to dump, but maybe I can live vicariously through your successes?

I have a 21 Missions jug in the corner just waiting for water and yeast, once everything is sorted I might have to get into another round....
Hey Pope. I was hoping to start this weekend actually, but can’t. It looks like I won’t be able to start until August, too much going on with being away & I want to be able to monitor the first ferment or two daily, then run it as soon as it is finished. I took a sip of the white agave with pine needles this afternoon. Very nice. I’m thinking that I will soak some fresh baby needles in terpenes then pack my pot riser loosely with them during the spirit run. Will post up if I do.
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Re: My agave spirit

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jonnys_spirit wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:41 am I've got some 21 Missions Agave and Terpenes I'll be fermenting pretty soon. Interesting about the pine needles but I'll have plenty of spirits to experiment with after I get through the syrup and terpene runs... I'll do a small batch or three to start which they suggest to keep about 1.036 or so for starting gravity if I remember correctly but I'll try adding terpenes to the spirit run and maybe some other approaches to get more of a range from blanco through anejo style to maybe more of a stronger flavored mezcal..

Cheers!
-j
+1 on the 1.036 start from what 21M folks suggest. That is about 5% max abv.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by 8Ball »

Here is what I’m thinking of doing:

🎱 21 Missions Raw Dark Agave Nectar w/Terpenes
(Premium Agave Organic Raw Dark RBA-20kg-Dark-ZY)

1:9 agave:water ratio
Cool, clean water.
Filtered to remove chlorine.
Neutralize chlorine with VitC
Use Fermax & boiled yeast as nutrients.
Feed every day for 3 days
Use bread yeast if you want
Wait till hearts show up before adding terpenes to low wines.
Don’t heat wash up past 115F pre-ferment.

SafTec Blue yeast - 0.5g/G minimum
8g SafTec Blue + 4g FP921 or bread yeast rehydrated @ 95F in 1QT water.
Pitch 4g bread yeast on day 4
Maintain 85-95F ferment temperature.

Nutrient
3 big spoons fermax plus 1 spoon bakers yeast boiled 3 minutes in 3 cups water.

Feed
1 cup at 1.038-ish start
1 cup at 1.034 33% ferment drop 24 hours
1 cup at 1.025 66% ferment drop 48 hours

Make a big oyster sock.
Ph control during first 3 days with calcium hydroxide.
Let it initially drop to 4.0, then raise it to 4.5.
Should be good for the rest of the ferment.
Might crash at less than 3.7 so don’t let it get under 4.0.

Loosely pack copper pot riser with some fresh pine needles soaked in terpenes.
You want terpene to interact with vapors, like a gin basket.

Use backset up to 25%

2.5L (0.66G) 21M + 7.0 water @ 85F + 0.25G yeast starter = 8G total

2 oz terpenes in 8G wash
1 oz terpenes in 4.5G spirit run
8g SafTec Blue + 4g bread yeast rehydrated @ 95F in 1QT water.
Strip 7.5G and reserve 0.5G wash
Spirit: Do two ferments & strips to get 4G low wines + 1G wash
Toss fores and early heads, then collect till aggregate is 55%

Targets
SG 1.038 (5% abv max)
pH 5.0 + 0.25
90F
85F - 95F
Feed @ pitch, @ 24 hours, @ 48 hours @72 hours
Ph control: if the oyster sock doesn’t work, let it drop to 4.0, then bring back up to 4.5 with calcium hydroxide.

2.5L (0.66G) (7.333#) 21M
7.25-0.25=7G water
0.25G (32 oz) yeast starter
0.66+7.0+0.25=7.91 G total wash volume, top off to 8G.
Last edited by 8Ball on Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Nice writeup @ 8ball! I've got 10 gallons of the Dark-55 syrup and a bottle of the terpenes and 100g SafTeq Blue - Plenty to play with plus Fermaid O/K and sterilised trub for nutes :)

Cheers,
j

EDIT: I did this before with a higher SG (1.070'ish probably but don't remember now) and used some sweet potatoes that I smoked on the grill along with boiled yeast for nutes (and smoke) and no crash issues encountered... Probably had thrown in a pocket full of shells too and some calcium hydroxide so there's that :) - Sorta treat these like a sugar wash WRT crashes over the first day or two of ferment...
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by 8Ball »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:37 pm Nice writeup @ 8ball! I've got 10 gallons of the Dark-55 syrup and a bottle of the terpenes and 100g SafTeq Blue - Plenty to play with plus Fermaid O/K and sterilised trub for nutes :)

Cheers,
j

EDIT: I did this before with a higher SG (1.070'ish probably but don't remember now) and used some sweet potatoes that I smoked on the grill along with boiled yeast for nutes (and smoke) and no crash issues encountered... Probably had thrown in a pocket full of shells too and some calcium hydroxide so there's that :) - Sorta treat these like a sugar wash WRT crashes over the first day or two of ferment...
Thanks Jonny. I’m really looking forward to starting on the agave. How did the smoke carry over with the sweet taters? I’d like a little hint of smoke in the clear spirit, but not the strong camp fire effect.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I was pretty minimal with it and don't have my exact notes ATM and it wasn't very up front at all - I'd smoke them for longer next time. I think I did three or four sweet taters smoked for an hour or two added to a 32g brute ferment - Maybe 25g tops of the Agave wash.. Just estimates off the top of my head but I'll do more next time for a smoke batch to blend down if it's too much... I'd really like to see how I can get a stronger Mezcal type approach so will be experimenting further and dig up my notes.. Charred oak would probably also head in that direction but some infused smoke may lend some depth too..

Cheers!
-j
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by 8Ball »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:31 pm I was pretty minimal with it and don't have my exact notes ATM and it wasn't very up front at all - I'd smoke them for longer next time. I think I did three or four sweet taters smoked for an hour or two added to a 32g brute ferment - Maybe 25g tops of the Agave wash.. Just estimates off the top of my head but I'll do more next time for a smoke batch to blend down if it's too much... I'd really like to see how I can get a stronger Mezcal type approach so will be experimenting further and dig up my notes.. Charred oak would probably also head in that direction but some infused smoke may lend some depth too..

Cheers!
-j
Yea, I agree. 4 taters in 25G doesn’t sound like much. Maybe that amount in an 8G wash would work. They cook the pinas’ underground for a week or so with stones & wood so the smoke slowly builds up.

I’m also thinking I might set a glass jar full of ice inside my smoker. Let the condensate drip into a container beneath the jar. Then add the melted ice water and condensate to the ferment and/or spirit run. Just trying to avoid the wet camp fire/ash tray flavor. Something subtle like a smoked cheese instead. It will reveal itself at some point I hope.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by pope »

Jonny I used to have to push more gravity in the OG to get up to barrel strength on the spirit run but I switched to plates (right before I took my long hiatus lol) so I'll have to try lower gravity and leverage those plates to get up to strength. Looks like I did a 1.058 SG last January, dropped nice and steady based on notes, but I fed it multiple times and never pampered a ferment like that before in my life. Kept the temp >80F. But like I said at the time I was limited by pot abv's for a double distill. I'll be pulling a bottle of my mezcal off the shelf tonight and contemplate a new agave ferment. Thanks for the peer pressure fellas!
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by pope »

8Ball there's DIY youtube videos on how to make your own liquid smoke with basically a BBQ, a bowl of ice water, and a few odds and ends. I've got a book with mezcal notes that say what kinds of woods they use - oak and eucalyptus are common, I think all the guys down in Mexico doing it the old fashioned way just use the local wood they can find. If you want a bigger list of species I can track down that book and share. It doesn't sound as magical as doing it all the old fashioned way, but I've thought about adding some DIY liquid smoke when cutting the final spirit to really dial in the profile I'm looking for. The guy at 21 Missions reminded me that there's no standard for 'agave spirit' so you can do whatever the F you want with it and it's still agave spirit as long as it ain't 'tequila' or 'mezcal'. Plus that only matters for pros anyway.
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by jonnys_spirit »

If you strip the lower OG 1.038'ish so 30%ABV your pot still spirit run should still be in the 120-130 proof range just need more ferment volume... A plated still prolly works fine too but I just use a pot for now so double or 1.5 with terpenes and I like this idea of soaking pine needles (or something else maybe) in terpenes in the vapor path.... I'm looking forward to using the terpenes in the spirit run to see what kind of flavors I can get... I'm pretty swamped at work this next week but might be able to start a small ferment to run a couple test batches before I go for a full 45g ferment.. Just need to watch for a pH crash and treat it quickly if so.. Yeah not too worried about sticking to making a tequila/mezcal so want to push it a little lol..

Cheers!
-j
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by 8Ball »

I started an 8G wash of 21 Missions Raw Dark Organic Agave last Saturday.

2.7L agave, 2.5 oz terpenes and nutrients. OG 1.034, ph 5.3, pitch temp 87.6F.

Used a starter made with 9g SafTec Blue & 5g bakers. Hung an oyster shell sock in it.

Ferment started up in a couple hours. Ph went from 5.3 to 3.5 in 18 hours. Buffered with pickling lime to 4.7 and fed it some more nutrients. Basically adjusted ph up and fed nutes for 3 days now. SG currently is at 1.013 and ph 4.2. Using a 10G insulated water cooler as the tub.

Ferment slowing down. Added 3g more of bakers started yesterday. Temperature has been holding steady at 86-87F. Just a hint of sweetness left and no sourness. Will probably be finished in a day or so under 1.000 and approx. 5% abv.

Will strip out 7G and reserve 1G for the spirit as a 1.5 run. Not sure if I’m going to add more terpenes or any smoke essence to the spirit. This is my first run of raw agave and I may have pushed it already with terpenes in the wash.

I’m pretty stoked about this one.
🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting.
Per a conversation I had with Mr. Jay Gibbs regarding white oak barrel staves: “…you gotta get it burning good.”
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by Hambone »

Just received 16 gal dark blue agave from 21 missions…interesting days ahead.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Following your progress 8ball! I’m excited too! pH crashed quickly wow!

Hambone, did you pick up terpenes as well?

I did an all agave before and really enjoyed it but no terpenes.

I might try to overdo terpenes with a small batch spirit run and blend if needed or maybe even put some away on oak to see how that approach matures.

21missions has a darker syrup as well with more unfermentables that might be interesting as an adjunct too. I don’t remember which product it was off the top of my head.

Cheers!
-j
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by 8Ball »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:44 pm
21missions has a darker syrup as well with more unfermentables that might be interesting as an adjunct too. I don’t remember which product it was off the top of my head.

Cheers!
-j
They call it “black” agave. Not sure how it would work for our purposes. Pretty sure the guy at 21M told me to steer clear of it.

Dunno.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by Hambone »

Terpenes come in tomorrow. They actually had a really decent sale on their site if anyone in interested…

Will likely add for ferment and also augment the low wines.

As far as unfermentables, I have heard of using an enzyme that breaks down inulin…not sure if that would help.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I ordered the black agave 55 at first and they called and talked me out of it lol. As an adjunct and with enzymes maybe it might lend something interesting? The amber is going to be good in any case. I think I ended up with the dark amber “45”.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by 8Ball »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:04 pm I ordered the black agave 55 at first and they called and talked me out of it lol. As an adjunct and with enzymes maybe it might lend something interesting? The amber is going to be good in any case. I think I ended up with the dark amber “45”.
Yea, thats what I got:
Premium Agave Organic Raw RBA-20kg-Dark-ZY
1 80.95
Dark 45
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by Sigerson »

After studying this thread and others, as well as watching the Agave Spirit video from Bearded and Bored on YouTube, I threw together this hybrid process and ran a small test batch:

2x 1 gallon containers with 5ml terpenes and ~1.5lbs of Madhava raw dark agave syrup, for an OG of 1.064.

Don't have a tequila yeast, so I ran a mix of DADY and 71B (for fruitiness?) rehydrated with Go-Ferm Protect.

Pitched and placed the two containers in a cooler with a space heater and temp control centered around 90f. Added a small handful of crushed oyster shells to each for pH buffering.

Ferment never looked very active, with only light foaming, but SG steadily dropped each day. pH never dropped below 4.1X for either, and progress remained steady. Did step feedings with homemade nutrient (yeast hulls + DAP + B vitamin complex + Epsom) on days 4 and 6 - treating this almost like a mead seems to be the way to go. One container fermented out before the other, so I added about 100ml of its contents to the slower one. Both came out below 1.0 in around 9 days. Cold crashing now.

I'm looking to try a more traditional agave wine, since that seems to be a thing. I'm hoping the flavor improves after the yeast falls out of suspension and I might rack half of it to secondary to see if it improves. I'm a big fan of the smokiness of mezcal, but struggled with how to get the smoke in there without the pinas that other have access to - I may play around with liquid smoke or even try bubbling some smoke through the wine and/or spirit to see what happens.

8ball: smoking ice is a great way to get smoky water - it's used for cocktails and I've done it myself with a smoker tube. Smoke likes to adhere to cold things so just putting a pan of ice in a smoker or smoky grill will capture a lot of smoke without having to collect condensation. When the ice is melted, it's probably absorbed as much smoke as it reasonably will. If you don't use it in a wash, you can always refreeze it and use it in cocktails.

Thanks to everyone who contributed so much great knowledge to this thread!
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by 8Ball »

Thanks Sigerson! I’ll have to smoke a tray full of ice and add it to my next wash to make some “Smoke on the water” agave.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by Hambone »

Cool name
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by pope »

I was told to handle the black agave like terpenes, adding more than recommended for either will seriously hamper or prevent fermentation (I know this from experience). Please do not over-do the black or you will wait months and eventually have very expensive vinegar like me! Call it the price of learning.

8Ball FWIW my notes on my last ferment were "added 4g potassium carbonate and 6 gram calcium carbonate" at 16 hours, this in a 12-gal batch which contained 18# dark syrup plus terpenes. No buffer but the volume was 25% backset. I had to add the same dosage again at the 4.5 day mark which was like 2/3 through the total gravity drop. It wasn't enough so I added 6g additional calcium hydroxide which is more powerful. Ultimately it kept pH between 4.2 starting as low as 3.7 through the whole thing.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by 8Ball »

pope wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:12 pm I was told to handle the black agave like terpenes, adding more than recommended for either will seriously hamper or prevent fermentation (I know this from experience). Please do not over-do the black or you will wait months and eventually have very expensive vinegar like me! Call it the price of learning.

8Ball FWIW my notes on my last ferment were "added 4g potassium carbonate and 6 gram calcium carbonate" at 16 hours, this in a 12-gal batch which contained 18# dark syrup plus terpenes. No buffer but the volume was 25% backset. I had to add the same dosage again at the 4.5 day mark which was like 2/3 through the total gravity drop. It wasn't enough so I added 6g additional calcium hydroxide which is more powerful. Ultimately it kept pH between 4.2 starting as low as 3.7 through the whole thing.
Thanks Pope. Thats what I remember the 21M guy telling me about the black agave when we talked about 30 minutes.

Myfirst ferment just finished today after 96 hours. OG 1.034 / FG 0.993 & 5.46% abv calculated. I had to buffer ph up with calcium hydroxide every 18-24 hours x 3 days. Did nutes feeds x 3 days too. Gonna strip it out tomorrow and keep some wash for the spirit.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by MtRainier »

I just ordered the 44 pound jug of dark raw and a bottle of terpenes.

Looking forward to giving it a try.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by pope »

So stoked so many people are successfully making agave spirits these days. IMO 21 Missions was such a game changer.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by 8Ball »

Yesterday, I stripped 7.5G @ 5.3% abv 21 Missions Dark Agave wash I used 2.5 oz (74 ml) terpenes in 8 gallons, so roughly 2.44 ml/L. I kept 0.5G wash in reserve fir the spirit run.

I stripped & collected everything until the alcometer floated at 0.00, this gave me almost 2 gallons low wines @ 20% abv.

I did the spirit in my 5G copper pot. 2G low wines + the 0.5G reserve wash. I tossed the first 4 oz as fores, then collected everything else until it got too funky coming out the pipe for my taste. This was when the parrot indicated 110P (corrected for temp). I then stripped the rest out as feints for the next run, collected 0.5G @ 23%.

The hearts cut was 43.25 oz @ 62% abv. I let it air out overnight and this morning I knocked it down to 55% abv. I’m keeping a bottle crystal clear, and to the remaining pint or so I added a small piece of used, untoasted or charred white oak heartwood.

I’m real happy with the taste & outcomes so far. Next time I won’t use terpenes so I can get a baseline on the raw agave alone and also will let it age longer before I knock it down to 55%. I’ll probably go with the recommended amount of terpenes going forward as well. Treat terpenes like specialty malts, a little goes a long way.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by MtRainier »

8Ball, so you use some wash for the spirit run but not any terpenes by themselves?
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by 8Ball »

This was my very first run with 21M agave & terpenes. I used more than double (2.3x) the recommended amount of terpenes. The wash still had unstripped terpenes in it so I decided I probably had enough in the recipe — and I did. I’m satisfied with the flavor, but my taste says to use no more than the recommended amount (20 ml/5G). I will make some without terpenes just to get a taste the base flavor profile, and go from there.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by MtRainier »

Thanks. I'll use your experience to inform mine. I did get some of the Saftech Blue yeast which is supposed to be resistant to some of the ferment poisons in agave. I'll use the recommended amount of terpenes in the fermentation and once I get a good sniff and a little taste of them I'll decide if I want to put some in the spirit run.

I plan to basically ferment like a rum ferment with some DAP and crushed oyster shells. I'll do it at a lower gravity than my rum ferments. I normally do 1 gallon of molasses to 4 gallons of water. The agave guy says more like 1 gallon to 8 gallons, so I'll respect those ratios. With an investment in ingredients it's better to take a little extra time than to risk a stall and attempt a recovery.

Did your agave syrup from them take a little while to ship? I'm on the opposite coast from them and did the thing where FedEx delivers to a store and you can pick it up. My terpenes shipped pretty quickly, but 5 days later my jug of syrup still hasn't shipped, or at least doesn't have a tracking number associated.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by 8Ball »

MtRainier wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:31 pm Thanks. I'll use your experience to inform mine. I did get some of the Saftech Blue yeast Good, I used 2g/G plus bakerswhich is supposed to be resistant to some of the ferment poisons in agave. I'll use the recommended amount of terpenes good ideain the fermentation and once I get a good sniff and a little taste of them I'll decide if I want to put some in the spirit run.

I plan to basically ferment like a rum ferment with some DAP and crushed oyster shells. might want to have some calcium hydroxide (pickling lime) handy for a quicker buffer I'll do it at a lower gravity than my rum ferments. I normally do 1 gallon of molasses to 4 gallons of water. The agave guy says more like 1 gallon to 8 gallons, so I'll respect those ratios. yea, I did 0.75G in 8G total With an investment in ingredients it's better to take a little extra time than to risk a stall and attempt a recovery.

Did your agave syrup from them take a little while to ship? I'm on the opposite coast from them and did the thing where FedEx delivers to a store and you can pick it up. I had no problems with shipping. My terpenes shipped pretty quickly, but 5 days later my jug of syrup still hasn't shipped, or at least doesn't have a tracking number associated.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by MtRainier »

I do have some calcium hydroxide on hand. I also have some powdered calcium carbonate that I'd toss in if it starts dropping too low after a day or two.
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