Possible Whiskey Grain Bill?

[SmokyMtn]

I haven't graduated to AG, but I am interested in learning. I'm working a grain bill and looking for opinions.

Pounds per Gallons of water
Corn- 1.72 lbs
Barley - 0.25 lbs
Rye - 0.17
This equates 2.14 lbs of grain per gallon of water.

Planning on bakers yeast active dry. Good start, bad, any ideas?

[Twisted Brick]

Putting together a grain bill is a lot of fun, especially when your spirit ages out and you get to taste it. Grain bills are usually listed in percentages of each grain in the entire bill, so that, like in baker's percentages, batch sizes can be changed while the percentages remain constant.

So yours would work out to be:

Corn - 80%
Barley - 11%
Rye - 8%

A mash relying on grain only for its enzymes requires 20% malted grain as a rule of thumb, for it to convert. You don't mention if your barley and rye are malted, but if they are, you would be ok. If they are not you will require exogenous enzymes to convert your mash. If you're not familiar, you want to research diastatic power of malts (DP), and how they are calculated in mashing.

Here's an explanation.

As you create grain bills, you will learn to predict the contribution of each grain based on its percentages. The easiest way to learn this is to make a few batches using a known recipe and how it translates to flavor. Any variations to that grain bill later on will tell you what each grain contributes.

Grain Bills of Bourbons and Ryes

Designing and stilling your own recipes takes you to a new level over making an existing recipe.

Twisted Brick

[SmokyMtn]

This does exist, it's Jack 80-12-8. But the mystery is the amount of grain to water. Also of course their yeast.

[arentwejusthere]

Have you seen this:

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 14&t=17750

It's a long read, but a great one, with a lot of good information that might save you some heartache.

[arentwejusthere]

As for the grain to water ratio you should be able to come up with whatever you'd like based on what you'd like your OG and FG to be using some reasonable estimates.

Typical Max PPGs I've encountered:
Corn: 37
Rye: 35
2 Row: 37

If your mashing / conversion is good you could plan for somewhere around 75% efficiency for the above numbers. You could calculate for 65% if you wanted to over make the first time. Water is EASY to add. Gravity is harder to add if you're going AG and don't want to use sugar.

A beer with an OG of 1.040 and an FG around 0.998 will keep your yeast happy (within a pretty safe margin), resulting in about 5.5% ABV in your finished beer.

So if you need an OG of 1.040 and you want 5 gallons of it you need 200 points. Split those up however you'd like, keeping diastatic power in mind if you're not using added enzymes.

You'll want to account for water loss to grain, as well. Depending on your process 0.5qts/lb loss is maybe a good place to start.

[Durhommer]

When mixing a grain bill I so far like 60 barley 20 corn 10 rye 10 oat

[Expat]

Useful reference as to how AG recipes are planned.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=69417

[TDick]

You might also want to read through Jimbo's Easy 1/2 Barrel Wheated Bourbon and Gumballhead

One of the first things Jimbo says is you CAN substitute Rye for the wheat. But I like the procedure because
1. I can understand it,
2. I don't have to cook grits - boil corn for hours,
3. It gives you the bonus of the Gumballhead instead of just throwing out spent grain.

Also note that he takes into consideration using cracked corn or ground meal.
With cracked corn, your ration is 3:1, dropping to 2.4:1 if you grind it up.

Whatever you decide, read through the T&Ts, and pick one that makes sense to you.
Then read the whole damned thread - twice.
It will save you a LOT of grief at the most inopportune times.

[SmokyMtn]

I appreciate the links but most is to complex right now. I think I understand the gelatinization of the grains and use of enzymes. But the equations and math are over my head.

[jonnys_spirit]

I’d stick to studying and making a couple tried and true recipes until you’re more comfortable.

Cheers!
-jonny

[SmokyMtn]

I’d stick to studying and making a couple tried and true recipes until you’re more comfortable.

Cheers!
-jonny

I'm not afraid to fail or try something new. Worse that could happen is screw up a mash. I have been fermenting and running sugar for a spell.

[vagabondmountainman]

Are you planning fermenting on or off grain? If you've never mashed before, one of the T&T recipes that doesn't contain cracked corn might be a good place to start. Cracked corn is a lot of work to mash without enzymes, especially if you've never mashed or sparged before. You would get a great whiskey and gain some good experience by doing something along the lines of Jimbos single malt AG. If you do want to make a bourbon, using flaked corn from a homebrew store for your first mash would make your life a lot easier too.

[SmokyMtn]

Are you planning fermenting on or off grain? If you've never mashed before, one of the T&T recipes that doesn't contain cracked corn might be a good place to start. Cracked corn is a lot of work to mash without enzymes, especially if you've never mashed or sparged before. You would get a great whiskey and gain some good experience by doing something along the lines of Jimbos single malt AG. If you do want to make a bourbon, using flaked corn from a homebrew store for your first mash would make your life a lot easier too.

I planned on mashing in this https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/Brew_in ... -16gal.htm I like the metal basket so I can agitate with a drill.

And moving grain to a brew bag, then bag into fermenter. I realize it is an extra step.

Pintoshine has a video mashing all corn grain bill. It didn't really get thick on him. I may try his method.

[SmokyMtn]

Pintoshine video if care to watch

[arentwejusthere]

If you can understand not just the process but the why of the above you'll be off to a good start. The why is just as important as the product coming out as expected if you want to make your own stuff, or have the skillset and understanding to troubleshoot things.

As for the equations and math, it's not as complicated as it seems. If you pick a Tried and True you should, with a few hours of study and reading, be able to break a T&T down and understand the maths behind what was used.

[vagabondmountainman]

That's a nice single pot set up. You should get pretty good efficiency with that. The mesh strainer and bag makes sense if you are sparging and fermenting off the grain, but not sure you need the extra step with the bag if you are fermenting on the grain. I always sparge and ferment off grain with my brewing system, because its easier for me to get most of the fermentable sugars out of the grain while everything is hot than do it after fermentation, plus I think it gives me a cleaner flavor. Lots of folks ferment on the grain with amazing results too. With that setup you could easily try both and see what works for you/what makes a better flavor. It'll also be really easy to take the the first runnings of your mash and ferment off the grain, and do a sugar head on the grain with the left over grain and more water.

You'll have great results with sebstar HTL, and should get a good conversion. I use a 2 step mash at different temps for bourbon. I keep my temp up around 185-190 F with just the corn, appropriate amount of water and sebstar to start and recirculate the corn mash with a pump and heat as needed for 2-3 hours to get a good conversion. After that I add malted rye and barley after adding the appropriate volume of extra cold water to get the temperature down to 145 or so with the grains and hold everything there for another hour before sparging.

There are lots of different ways to accomplish the same thing. You should get good results with your pot and stirring with the drill with Pintoshines method. If you use rye, it has a lot of gummy betaglucans and can easily cause a stuck mash and clog all the holes in your screen. Even with the enzymes you might want to add some rice hulls to help with that If you are going to sparge and ferment off grain at some point. Using some sebstar low temp enzyme once you get temps down into 150's or below will help too.

The cracked corn just takes a lot longer and is more work. It can be frustrating if you don't have experience mashing otherwise. That's why I recommended trying a whiskey without it first for your first mash. I can do an allgrain mash for beer, scotch, Irish Whiskey or anything else not involving cracked field corn in 60 min or so without needing enzymes, but to do one with the corn adds a lot more complexity with enzymes, extra heat and a few more hours. If flaked corn wasn't so much more expensive ($75 for 50 pounds vs $12) I'd just use it. If you combine corn and rye for your first mash it'll be a good challenge, but you seem like you've done your research, so you should be fine if you follow the right procedure. Although if you're set on bourbon, you might consider trying a wheated one with just corn, wheat and barley rather than rye first to make it a little less of a challenge. Whatever you do, post some pics and let us know how it turns out. I'm excited for you.

[SmokyMtn]

but not sure you need the extra step with the bag if you are fermenting on the grain.

Reason for the bag is I anticipate the volume of grain to exceed the capacity of the basket. Also I would like to move to a larger fermenter with multiple mashes and bags in one barrel. My entire process is completed outdoors. So fermenting takes longer.

[arentwejusthere]

Also I would like to move to a larger fermenter with multiple mashes and bags in one barrel.

Multiple mashes and bags in one barrel of the same grain bill/recipe?

[SmokyMtn]

Yes same grain bill. Just multiple mashes to fill up larger fermenter.

[vagabondmountainman]

Nothing wrong with that. I do this sometimes doing 2 mashes in one day in my 25 gallon mash tun and putting them into a big 55 gallon food grade barrel to ferment. Then I have two washes to strip separately and combine for one spirit run. But don't make too much work for yourself at the start. No matter how careful you are, you will make some mistakes and learn a lot on your first several all grain mashes. We all do. I learn new things constantly, that's part of the process. But if you try to do too much at once, you'll likely make more mistakes and have less fun. You might also consider mashing in a cooler like a lot of folks do to extend your capacity and just do one mash.