Apple Varieties

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punkin
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Apple Varieties

Post by punkin » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:26 am

I'm deciding on apples to plant for making Calvados. I'm after some advice from those in the know apple wise. I wanted to try planting eating apples rather than cider apples as i mostly plan to distill the cider anyway, and i spose the trees will be there in the yard after i'm well dead or moved away, and i wanted to be fair to the next occupants of the house.

There's a couple of three-in-one grafted trees at a couple of local nurseries that are ready to bear next year ( they have a couplea flowers on em now ). I have room for two trees if i Espallier them across a boundary fence, the first one i'm looking at has Gala, Red Fuji, and Pink Lady.
The second tree has Williams pride, i think it was called Crispy Crunch (although i can't find any info on this one ) and Cripps pink (which is another name for Pink Lady). Any info on these would be greatly appreciated.

I figure i should get a reasonably complex cider from 5 varieties although i'd like to hear from some experts as to whether they think i need a cider variety in there as well?
If this is the case, maybe i could make an extra graft on each tree if i could find some scion material somewhere, dunno though...
I spose i wouldn't mind maturing some of the cider if it turned out well, not much better than a summer day swimming in the river and drinking a flagon of cider, dunno if it'll work without cider apples though. :|

Anyone know their shit when it comes to apple juice :?:

Sorry if it's not the perfect fit topic wise here, i couldn't find anywhere else to put it and didn't want it drifting off in Off-topic. :?

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by HookLine » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:57 am

I LOVE apples, eat several a day. One of nature's real gifts to us. Royal Galas and Golden Delicious are probably my favourites. But they are all nice.
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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by goose eye » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:19 pm

pink lady is a stand alone. mean you aint got to mix other juice with it. you lookin dual purpose trees.
you want cider cider you aint gonna get it from eatin apples. cider apples aint worth a dern for eatin.
what rootstock yall use round there for growth restrictin. 111 9 26 or such. would match that to trelis system or ever how you figurein on growin cause 111 mite be to tall an round here most is on 111 unlessin you tell em you goin hi density or fence

so im tole

punkin
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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by punkin » Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:55 pm

goose eye wrote:pink lady is a stand alone. mean you aint got to mix other juice with it. you lookin dual purpose trees.
you want cider cider you aint gonna get it from eatin apples. cider apples aint worth a dern for eatin.
what rootstock yall use round there for growth restrictin. 111 9 26 or such. would match that to trelis system or ever how you figurein on growin cause 111 mite be to tall an round here most is on 111 unlessin you tell em you goin hi density or fence

so im tole

Thanks goose, both of the trees have Pink Lady although one calls it Cripps Pink. Might try and get a small cider tree or two in a few years time and graft em to the established trees if i decide to go that way. Maybe do the top row in cider apples?
I am planning on espalliering both trees along the same fence, i don't believe the rootstock is a dwarf though. Do you reckon that'll still work with normal growth rootstock if i make the screen long and high?
I was thinking of a frame for each tree twenty feet long by ten feet high with wire runners spaced at two foot intervals, the top one being a piece of RHS box section for rigidity.
That'll give me five sets of branches at 2, 4 ,6 , 8 and 10', i figured this would keep my neighbours yard outa my sight while still giving me a large frame and bing able to pick and prune the lot with a short stepladder?

minime
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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by minime » Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:07 pm

punkin wrote:.
There's a couple of three-in-one grafted trees at a couple of local nurseries that are ready to bear next year ( they have a couplea flowers on em now ). I have room for two trees if i Espallier them across a boundary fence, the first one i'm looking at has Gala, Red Fuji, and Pink Lady.
Hey punkin. I'm not sure 'bout apple trees but I bought a plum tree from the nursery that had fruit set on it. Brought it home and Espallier'd it onto a southwest facing frame. Damn thing was four years before it set fruit again. That was last summer and I had to leave it behind when I moved this past winter. :( Hope things go a little quicker for you.

Very thoughtful of you thinkin' bout the next inhabitants. Looks good on you :D

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by goose eye » Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:23 pm

pink lady is trademark name for crisp pink.
aint got no no how on runin apples on a fence. you probly got a horticulture colege over youder
with a web site on apples an how to do it. dont want to tell you wrong so you best go there.
as far as rootstock when they say semi dwarf or dwarf it is percent of normal tree. say a normal pink lady get 20 ft a semi dwarf would be 75% of that an a dwarf bout 50% of that. now if you got one that
only get 15 ft hi then that semi dwarf gonna be smaller than other semi dwarf. with you getin 3 in 1
cross polinatein aint gonna be a problem i dont reckon.

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by punkin » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:24 pm

goose eye wrote:pink lady is trademark name for crisp pink.
aint got no no how on runin apples on a fence. you probly got a horticulture colege over youder
with a web site on apples an how to do it. dont want to tell you wrong so you best go there.
as far as rootstock when they say semi dwarf or dwarf it is percent of normal tree. say a normal pink lady get 20 ft a semi dwarf would be 75% of that an a dwarf bout 50% of that. now if you got one that
only get 15 ft hi then that semi dwarf gonna be smaller than other semi dwarf. with you getin 3 in 1
cross polinatein aint gonna be a problem i dont reckon.
No they're designed to pollinate each other, Goose.

I reckon i got the fence runnin bit sorted as far as pruning and stuff goes after a couplea hours on google over the last couplea days, just have ta ask my dwarf fence running question of the man in the store, i'm guessin.

Shit tiny man, i ain't got four years to wait! I need to make calvados shortly.


I spose in all truth what i want to make is all the equipment like a scratter and a press :oops: :oops:

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by goose eye » Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:35 pm

patince punkin you caint be rushin perfection.
rootstock gonna play a part on how quick it gonna bare.
who ever you gonna get it from if they aint got no idea bout rootstock find someone else.
round here in some places they putin bout 1000 trees to the acre an that aint close to what they
putin in europe. i heard close to 5000 trees.

so im tole

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by punkin » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:40 pm

Any of them ol boys you know Goose, who's daddies used to make shine back in the day before they seen the light and reformed, know anything about apples and shine and the ways they used to do it back then?

Figure if they did used to do it, you could ask em some stuff for me, and if their daddies remembered a few tips you could pass em on, so when i do get around to makin cider for brandy i'll be able to look back here and check up on a few things?

I'm not planning on using sugar, just thinkin about using apples and maybe some other fruit like raisins or grapes or such.

Maybe some spices like cloves or cinnamon or allspice in the wash so it comes over a hint?

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by goose eye » Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:32 am

im tole it depends on you apples. im also tole 2 to 3 gal to the barel if you lucky .
as far as them sasperillia flavers bein added they figure that why they got likker stores.
if you gonna use your grapes in your cider how you gonna make grape wine.
when economy down aint gonna be much call for bootleg but they still get wine
20 a gal at 35
100 a gal at 7

so im tole

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by glassman » Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:41 am

i put 16 trees on wire here in the south in may 06. root stocks are Bud-9, M9, G11, G16. google them and you'll find lots of info. the G11 and G16 had fruit after 2 seosons. should have taken off the flowers for 1 more year but i wanted to see how they developed. you don't need dwarfing roots to espaliar..but it could turn out huge and beautiful. G16 were pink lady and the M9 were honeycrisp. by next year the wires will be covered. gman

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by goose eye » Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:30 am

glassman how many bushels to the tree you exspectin gowin like that. how many laterials you runin.
you got many sucker from them rootstocks.
unlessin you got telephone poles i think id be lookin at growth restictin rootstock cause some them apple trees get up in the 30+ ft range an even doin what you doin it gonna be a monster to deal with every year.

so im tole

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by glassman » Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:39 am

goose, all my root stock are full dwarf.real small trees. some are just past the experimental stage for the developers at the univercity. i've seen these verieties dripping with fruit. don't know about bushels. maybe 1/2-3/4. trees have 4 laterals @18" apart. total spred up to 10' from trunk. no sucker from the root stock.
trees will max out at ~ 6 1/2' tall. this is all experiments for me but if the big guys can do it so can i. hopefully won't spray them but fruit has that rust or scab look...don't know which yet. awfull tasty apples thoe. gman

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by punkin » Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:50 am

goose eye wrote:im tole it depends on you apples. im also tole 2 to 3 gal to the barel if you lucky .
as far as them sasperillia flavers bein added they figure that why they got likker stores.
if you gonna use your grapes in your cider how you gonna make grape wine.
when economy down aint gonna be much call for bootleg but they still get wine
20 a gal at 35
100 a gal at 7

so im tole

Don't understand everything you've said here Goose. Assuming a barrell is 55 of your gallons or 200 hundred odd litres of whole apples, not juice, i'd get 2-3 gallons, 7.5 - 11 litres of Calvados, also assuming your talking about xxx or such (i know you good ol boys like it strong) rather than my 80 proof?
If so, then assuming i'd be able to pick 55 gallons ( 5.5 bushels?) off my two trees and it'd make 10 litres of 80 proof without sugaring, i'd be a happy man and consider my goals achieved :lol: 8)

Was only thinking of something for flavouring when i said grapes, but i get what you're saying bout the liquor stores. I don't give a rats ass about economies though as my best allfruits and allgrains don't leave my house and ain't part of the stuff i give away. Even then economies don't matter as i have never sold one single drop.
20 a gal at 35
100 a gal at 7
This is the bit i can't figure, i assume you're saying that bootleggers were getting $20 a gallon at 35% back in the day?
Dunno how that relates to the bottom figure though?
glassman wrote:i put 16 trees on wire here in the south in may 06. root stocks are Bud-9, M9, G11, G16. google them and you'll find lots of info. the G11 and G16 had fruit after 2 seosons. should have taken off the flowers for 1 more year but i wanted to see how they developed. you don't need dwarfing roots to espaliar..but it could turn out huge and beautiful. G16 were pink lady and the M9 were honeycrisp. by next year the wires will be covered. gman
Sounds very good Glassman, i'll go and talk to the nursery man today and ask him about the rootstocks, might even bring one of the trees home with me if i like what he says.
From what i've read on google, you should be actually looking at increased yeilds from espallier rather than other trainings?
What are you planning on doing with your fruit? Assume you are marketting it?
You should be able to make some nice brandy just from the damaged and windfall with that much fruit.

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by Dnderhead » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:31 pm

I thank goose ( bin a while since talked "goose" most all gone here no one to talk to)is saying that you git 2-3 gal at "licker proof" . 20 gals at 35pr and I'm quit certain hes talking about 50gal of juice,it whould ferment
out to 5-7% (depending on sugar content) so 50% (100 pr) whould be about 5 gal , at 75% (150pr) 2 1/2 gal, that's total with out cuts

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by Tater » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:55 pm

when I do apples I usually triple run it to get proof up .However if your only looking for 80 proof you most likely will get around 90 proof total on second run .
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by glassman » Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:12 pm

i grow what i grow just for fun. got the space so why not. i'll eat a bunch of the apples when they all start to produce. now i'm going to buy deer apples(drops) to make me some apple/corn brew or something. momma said "The idle mind is the devils workshop". i like to keep bussy. gman \

PS...my irish and corn likker is real good!!! think i'll have another!

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by punkin » Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:04 pm

tater wrote:when I do apples I usually triple run it to get proof up .However if your only looking for 80 proof you most likely will get around 90 proof total on second run .

Thanks tater, i like my new method for the good stuff, and i'm gunna stick to it here too.
I'll strip one wash and see what the yeild and strength is, if it's high enough and bulky enough i'll just add it to the next wash at stillin time.
If it's not quite there, i'll strip two and add em both to the third at stillin time.

I believe i'm gettin a million percent better flavour, or thereabouts give or take a few thousand percent, doing it this way as compared to strip and spirit runs. Maybe in my head, but i doubt it. 8)

I'm glad of your figures though, anywhere tween 80 and 120 proof is doin me fine, i like what dunder says about it...it is what it is, and i can drive the still to make it round about where i want it rather than makin it high and diluting with water, i do my diluting with wash, before i run nowadays.

As always on the distilling and brewing, i value your input.

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by Tater » Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:14 pm

Little wash/mash mix on last run of anything in a pot still cant help but hold fruit nose/taste better on mutable runs.Why thumpers were handy also with some wash in them .Ive made fruit single runs with no sugar that were in 80 proof range that had right smart flavor and we drank as is.But I do prefer 100 proof for sipping most times.As for apples most I know around here think it takes 3 kinds of apples to get best brandy.Counts on apples but Id think you should average 3 gallons or so on six bushels in a 55 gallon barrel at proof your after.Grand pa would make a trough and pound apples with a pole to mash them up .I find freezing and grinding with large holed plate in my grinder easier.You will find more foreshots and heads then with peaches and seems to me tails come quicker with apples.
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by goose eye » Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:30 pm

round here it 14 bushel to the barel
think pectin enzimes is what they put on apple plumins an wait 24 hrs before squezein. supose to help break it down. reckon with your way before you add water
so im tole

gman - got any cedar trees close

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by muckanic » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:35 pm

I'm no calvados expert, but I've made the odd bit of apple schnapps. If chasing juice sweetness, I would have thought table apples would beat cider apples. Plus, fermenting on the pulp is a simple way of making a table apple cider taste more authentic, due to the increased tannin extraction. Similarly, distilling on the pulp and aging technique is something that distinguishes an authentic brandy from a schnapps, and that could swamp the effect of apple variety.
Last edited by muckanic on Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by Dnderhead » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:47 pm

other apples have more "flavor" so a mix is best, some for sugar and some for flavor ,also you want the "tart" of pie apples,it is bland without

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by punkin » Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:29 pm

Well purchased and planted today. Got two different trees, both three-way, so six different varieties there;

Gala.
Red Fuji
Pink Lady

Williams Pride
Pixie Crunch
Crimson Crisp

Both tres are about 4' high with some of the graft whips only being small and weak. I'm gunna try espalliering both trees, by using the branches mostly as they are, just taking them out to the sides for the first couple of laterals, then at the second or third, pruning to form the true espallier with the strongest graft.
I figure this will give me enough flowers from the other varieties for cross polination and get me headstart on collecting fruit, while still giving true espallier structure for the top few runners.

I couldn't find out the rootstock except from the nursery to say it's probably NM 106 which googles up as nothing.
They did say that multi grafts were no good on dwarf stock as the longevity of the tree was reduced down to about ten years, and the weaker grafts were dropped to near nothing.

The tags on the trees say they grow to 4 metres by 4 metres (about 12-13' round and high), so i'll have a pruning job on my hands but shouldn't be unmanagable, i hope.

Thanks tater, goose and muck. I'm planning on making a garbage disposal scratter to pulp the apples and then doing either a basket press or a cheese type round press, whatever i build has to double for grapes, so a round basket might be the end result.

Muck i'll take what you've posted to heart and do some searches from your post to figure it out, after all, i have a year or two to get the proccess right in my head before i'm inundated :lol:
But just thinking quickly about it, i think you've confirmed what goose said about the enzymes, but i could use some pulp instead of adding extra pectinase. i thought it was a problem hat had to be sorted by boiling the juice rather than adding it, but then again, i'm not gunna drink the fermented juice so much (unless i like it more than beer)....


I can't believe i just said that :shock: :o





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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by goose eye » Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:03 am

thought what seperates snaups from brandy was make up.
some folks make cider for cider

punkin when folks talk bout dwarf you got semi dwarf an dwarf . mostly they just call all of em dwarf an all dwarf mean is growth restrictin.
106 - is 60 to 70 percent of full height . semi dwarf - . hopefully they no somethin bout rootstock.
did you tell em how you was gonna be growin it.
what i read it aint recomended for it but that dont mean it cant be done.
did you test your soil

there a hole lot that makes up taste in cider. some apples is stand alone. -aint gotta add another kind-
an others is best mixed. there is moren one taste from apples that why you gotta mix.
these boys aint smart enough to no much bout apples

so im tole

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by punkin » Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:33 am

goose eye wrote:thought what seperates snaups from brandy was make up.
some folks make cider for cider

punkin when folks talk bout dwarf you got semi dwarf an dwarf . mostly they just call all of em dwarf an all dwarf mean is growth restrictin.
106 - is 60 to 70 percent of full height . semi dwarf - . hopefully they no somethin bout rootstock.
did you tell em how you was gonna be growin it.
what i read it aint recomended for it but that dont mean it cant be done.
did you test your soil

there a hole lot that makes up taste in cider. some apples is stand alone. -aint gotta add another kind-
an others is best mixed. there is moren one taste from apples that why you gotta mix.
these boys aint smart enough to no much bout apples

so im tole
I figured that schnapps was a maceration and brandy was a distillation. I plan on distilling the juice.
I just bought the plants from the nursery (or two different ones) the first one said they'd ring the growers and call me back (they didn't), i had an argument with the second one and insisted they ring the growers.
Finnally got the info that the rootstock was just numbers and would mean nothing to me, when i insisted on the numbers they told me NM 106. That doesn't sound right according to google. I spose it's semidwarf as like i said, it reckons 4m x 4m on the tag. I did get her to tell the grower what i wanted to do with em while she was on the phone and they said it should be fine...
I didn't test my soil, but read it should be a heavy soil, i have heavy soil with a clay base about 2' down, so i raised the trees slightly for drainage, but it is what it is, i ain't in it commercially, just want some apples, so i gotta play the hand i'm dealt. As far as ph goes, i do have a test kit in the shed somewhere, so spose i should test it.

I understand the basics on mixing apples for cider from a bit of google work Goose (or enough to confuse me anyway), and that's why i figured to get as many varieties in the small space i have as possible. They're all eating apples but at least one is a dessert apple and some are described as 'mildly' acid.
I might have room for one more dwarf single variety espallier on the other side of the house if i plant it while the bourbon girl ain't looking.

What would you reccomend for flavour in brandy?

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by goose eye » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:07 pm

punkin it mm 106 . not nm.

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by Dnderhead » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:09 pm

There are two different types of “schnapps”—German Schnapps (both a generic term for liquor and, specifically, German or Austrian fruit brandy)
American schnapps is infused as is most of American "brandy"

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by punkin » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:46 pm

goose eye wrote:punkin it mm 106 . not nm.

Thanks Goose, got it now. 8)

Says not ideal for espallier, hope i can get it. ottherwise i'll let em bush and the neighbour gets half :lol:

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by muckanic » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:40 pm

By schnapps, I was referring to a distillation rather than a maceration, and usually drunk white. Table-apple washes usually don't have enough of a fruit note to be able to withstand too much augmentation with sugar, which is an incentive to obtain sweet juice (usually topping out at 8% ABV). Without a good pulper you can be forced to dilute the fruit, which once again is a recipe for blandness (at least for single runs). Dunno about cider apples, but I assume that most of that additional tannin and acidity isn't necessarily volatile, so is more relevant to cider quality than to spirit. I am not a great fan of cooking fruit washes, as that is a fast way to lose volatiles and consequently flavour. I have never made schnapps stronger than 80 proof, although there is a potential issue of whether any flavour might be lost by shooting for a stronger, possibly wood-aged product. I guess that depends what proportion of the flavour lives in the hearts vis a vis the rest of the wash.

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Re: Apple Varieties

Post by snuffy » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:32 pm

If you are going to distill on the pomace, you'd better get busy on that water bath and add an agitator. It will scorch because it's too thick for convective heat transfer.

I distill from hard cider in a small pot still. To get more apple flavor, I dilute the low wines with sweet cider. In the past, I cheated by adding apple "essence" to the finished product. The essence is captured from the vacuum concentrator when they make juice concentrate and then added back to the concentrate. Using sweet cider with the low wines is much better.

We use a mix of cider and cooking apples. We also get very good cider from a very old (100+ years) King (we think) apple tree that we've adopted. The apples are so big you can make a whole pie from two apples. Some of the hard cider gets distilled, some bottled and then fizzed in a soda siphon. Champagne cocktails with applejack are quite nice.

If anybody has experience distilling on the pomace, I'd be very interested to hear about it.
Time's a wasting!!!

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