Rye with barley or corn?

Grain bills and instruction for all manner of alcoholic beverages.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
Sk8brew
Novice
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:32 am

Rye with barley or corn?

Post by Sk8brew »

I am planning to do a rye whiskey. I went to my LHBS and they only had a partial bag of rye malt, 35lbs. My fermenter can hold 44lbs. I have some barley and corn meal also and am looking for some input on flavor changes by adding 9lbs of barley or corn meal. Would this be a subtle difference or something more substantial?
User avatar
Expat
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2245
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:58 pm

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by Expat »

Corn has its own distinct flavor and inclusion will really depend on if that flavor suites you. In terms of a compliment I'd go with the barley.
_____________________
EXPAT

Current boiler and pot head
Cross flow condenser
Modular 3" Boka - pics tbd
___________________
User avatar
still_stirrin
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10337
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by still_stirrin »

+1 to Expat.

Use the malted barley. It will complement the rye, not cover it up. Corn will add “corny sweetness”, barley won’t.
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
Sk8brew
Novice
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:32 am

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by Sk8brew »

Awesome, thanks. That will make the mashing easier too.
User avatar
rubberduck71
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 735
Joined: Sat May 30, 2020 11:22 am
Location: Eastern PA

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by rubberduck71 »

Check out George Washington rye recipe. It has some corn in it. A recipe that old that is still being used has to be good!

I actually just stripped a batch of it last night, but it was my very first one, so cannot speak from personal experience (yet).

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 11&t=17514

65 percent rye, 30 percent corn and 5 percent malted barley. You'll need enzymes obviously, unless you use a portion of that 65% rye in malted form. I used that yellow label Angel yeast.

Duck
There are two times of year: FOOTBALL SEASON and... Waiting For Football Season
User avatar
Twisted Brick
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3770
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Craigh Na Dun

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by Twisted Brick »

I think it’s already been said, but at the percentages you have, with the corn you will get a flavor profile closer to a bourbon. With barley, you will get a flavor profile closer to a rye.
“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”

- W.C. Fields

My EZ Solder Shotgun
My Steam Rig and Manometer
Sk8brew
Novice
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:32 am

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by Sk8brew »

If I am fermenting on the grain is there any advantage to doing a rest before getting up to mash temp? I know it helps for sparging, but not sure if there is a need if fermenting on the grain.
User avatar
still_stirrin
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10337
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by still_stirrin »

Sk8brew wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:09 am If I am fermenting on the grain is there any advantage to doing a rest before getting up to mash temp? I know it helps for sparging, but not sure if there is a need if fermenting on the grain.
Well yes, because the enzymes developed during the step rests also help with the breakdown of the long starch molecules. And ultimately, that will help fermentation...regardless of whether you lauter or not.
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
Sk8brew
Novice
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:32 am

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by Sk8brew »

So I went with 34lbs malted rye, 10lbs pilsner malt, added water to bring temp up to 110F, rest for 20 minutes, added more water to bring up to 148F. Came up a bit short at 143F, so I added another gal boiling water and ended at 144F. Insulated it and left if for several hours. Starch test passed and sg was around 1.060. Pitched a 4l English ale starter and it took off like mad and finished fermenting in 5 days. As I have done in the past with bourbon, I squeezed the grains and added the first 3rd directly to the boiler for a stripping run. Turned on the heat to 100% [2800W], set up my pot still and continued squeezing the rest of the wash into carboys. While doing this, my boiler errors out for overtemp when it was up to 114F. I transferred it back to another carboy and low and behold it had scorched on the bottom element. I have run several bourbon recipes this way, single malt and beer wort and never had an issue.
So, next step is to see if I can clarify the wash. I left it outside for 2 nights, temp got down to 40 F, but the sludge only dropped to about 20% of the carboy. Is this normal for rye? I would rather not dump 20% of my wash, but not sure what to do. Also, how can I tell if the scorched wash is ruined? I plan to strip this first to make sure I don't scortch again, but will it be obvious after the stripping run if it is bad?
Sk8brew
Novice
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:32 am

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by Sk8brew »

Here is a pic.
carboys.JPG
User avatar
still_stirrin
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10337
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by still_stirrin »

Sk8brew wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 6:51 am So, next step is to see if I can clarify the wash. I left it outside for 2 nights, temp got down to 40 F, but the sludge only dropped to about 20% of the carboy. Is this normal for rye? <— Depending on “how fine you grind”, the powder may stay in suspension, especially if there are still some unfermentables in the mash. Rye, wheat, oats, corn, and even barley may have some suspended particulate.

I would rather not dump 20% of my wash, but not sure what to do. <— Try racking it again, leaving the sediment behind. Then, try “squeezing the liquor” out of the mush left behind. By repeated rackings, the liquid will clear better.

Also, how can I tell if the scorched wash is ruined? <— Good luck with that. Scorched wash is often “unsalvageable”. I hope you have better luck than most who’ve scorched their wash.

I plan to strip this first to make sure I don't scortch again, but will it be obvious after the stripping run if it is bad? <— Again, often the scorched taste won’t be eliminated in the spirit run. Maybe you’re luckier than others have been, but I’d advise keeping it separate from your good low wines....just in case.
Sometimes lessons are learned “the hard way”. Good luck.
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
Setsumi
Distiller
Posts: 1371
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:23 pm
Location: Central South Africa

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by Setsumi »

Sk8brew wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:14 am Here is a pic.

carboys.JPG
myself gave up on unmalted barley for just this reason. even at 25% grain bill to 75% maize meal i just could not filter it for a good recovery of alchohol.

though i do not have acces to good rye products i can imagine your wish to do rye. i have found 10% flake oats in a maize meal does change the product quite a lot. maybe start with a higher barley malt bill and less rye.
My first flute
My press
My twins
My controller
My wife tells me I fell from heaven covered in white. Why did they let me fall?
Sk8brew
Novice
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:32 am

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by Sk8brew »

still_stirrin wrote:Again, often the scorched taste won’t be eliminated in the spirit run. Maybe you’re luckier than others have been, but I’d advise keeping it separate from your good low wines....just in case.
Will it be obvious after the stripping run whether it is scorched and should be left out of the spirit run?
User avatar
still_stirrin
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10337
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by still_stirrin »

Sk8brew wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 10:39 am
still_stirrin wrote:Again, often the scorched taste won’t be eliminated in the spirit run. Maybe you’re luckier than others have been, but I’d advise keeping it separate from your good low wines....just in case.
Will it be obvious after the stripping run whether it is scorched and should be left out of the spirit run?
Ain’t gonna’ answer this one....I’ll step aside and let other newbies who’ve scorched their prize wash tell you “the answer”.
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
Sporacle
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1149
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:45 pm

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by Sporacle »

I did a stripping run yesterday, had the exact same sediment issue as you, I took the clearer wash from the top of my fermenters and stripped that, then I ran the thicker wash from the bottom mixed at about 50 50 with the left over mash from the first stripping run and I collected separately. I have absolutely no idea about scorching so I can't help with that, the thicker wash that I ran through came out with a greenish tint and averaged about 35abv, tasted fine to my mind. Hope this helps, Cheers
" you can pick your nose and you can pick your friends; but you can't always wipe your friends off on your saddle" sage advice from Kinky Friedman
User avatar
Expat
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2245
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:58 pm

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by Expat »

Settle, rack and settle again. Patience is key.

Cold crashing helps, but time is the only thing sometimes. Accept that you won't get every drop and size your batches to hit the volume you want to make.

Else, build yourself a thumper and steam the muck.
_____________________
EXPAT

Current boiler and pot head
Cross flow condenser
Modular 3" Boka - pics tbd
___________________
User avatar
Stonecutter
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1911
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:40 pm
Location: Somewhere within the Milkyway

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by Stonecutter »

Newbie here! Once that acrid burnt taste gets into your spirit it’s like a turd that won’t wipe clean. My scorching came from puke but it’s all the same shitty taste in the end. I’ve put it on some left over medium toasted oak chips to try and cover it up but that’s the best I can think to do.
Freedom had been hunted round the globe; reason was considered as rebellion; and the slavery of fear had made men afraid to think. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
-Thomas Paine
User avatar
Stonecutter
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1911
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:40 pm
Location: Somewhere within the Milkyway

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by Stonecutter »

I usually add about 25% flaked corn and 20% malted barley to my malted rye. I use the Vienna Rimrock rye. I recently swapped the corn out for a medium peated malt and the results were fantastic! Vanilla or custard nose, A smoky flavor on the front end and at the back of the pallet came a nice peppery tone. Decent mouthfeel. I ferment off the grain and noticed that if I squeeze too much out of the mash I get a lot of flocculation. +1 on what Expat said earlier, that you can’t get every drop you want. I’ll rack it three times if I have to and then aerate it well. Anything to prevent that disgusting burnt taste.
Freedom had been hunted round the globe; reason was considered as rebellion; and the slavery of fear had made men afraid to think. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
-Thomas Paine
Sk8brew
Novice
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:32 am

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by Sk8brew »

I typically heat up at 100% (2800W), then dial it back to 60% once the column heats up.. I keep it there for the first 20mins to avoid puking, collect foreshore and then ramp it up to 100% for the rest of the stripping run. Does a slow heat up help with scorching? Does the risk of scorching go down as the stripping run continues, similar to puking? I am just looking for ways to minimize the scorching with changes to my process. Again, I have done several batches of bourbon, both rye and wheat, with all the muck in the boiler with this process and never had a scorch. Rye is new territory for me.
User avatar
still_stirrin
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10337
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by still_stirrin »

Sk8brew wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:21 am...Does a slow heat up help with scorching?
Have you ever made pasta in a pot on the stove top?

Starting the boil in a boiler is similar, as the "solution" beit water with noodles or a mash slurry comes up to "boiling temperature" can cause the heavier starches to scorch. So, you bring the water to a boil before adding the noodles. But with a wash in your boiler, you can't do that. So, you bring it to boiling gradually. Hitting it hard up front, especially if you don't have an ultra low density watt (ULWD) element can cause the wash to scorch. And if you're firing with propane, then the wash can scorch on the bottom of the boiler. Stirring the wash as the temperature rises will help avoid a scorch.
Sk8brew wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:21 am...Does the risk of scorching go down as the stripping run continues, similar to puking?
Ironically, yes. Once the wash is simmering, the convective forces will stir the liquid helping to diffuse the heat throughout the wash.
Sk8brew wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:21 am...I am just looking for ways to minimize the scorching with changes to my process. Again, I have done several batches of bourbon, both rye and wheat, with all the muck in the boiler with this process and never had a scorch.

Rye is new territory for me.
Rye has much beta glucan, which is "pastey" like a glue. Just dip your finger into the mash and then rub your fingers together....sticky, isn't it? Wheat also has glucans, but not to the extent as rye. Likewise, oats also has some glucans, but even less than wheat malts do. The rye grains are the worst and without a glucan rest (105-115*F), you may experience a lot of "stickiness" in the mash. And this stickiness can stick to the surfaces that heat your boiler, thereby increasing the chances of a scorch.

Again, agitation while bringing the temperature up to a boil will help. It may still scorch, especially if you have an element that isn't ULWD. But stirring will help you.
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
Sk8brew
Novice
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:32 am

Re: Rye with barley or corn?

Post by Sk8brew »

Thanks for all of the help with this. I racked off the clean stuff and ran it without scorching. I am still trying to determine if I am going to add in the first stripping run that scorched. If has a slightly different taste to it, but not disgusting or anything. It is a bit tough to tell though on a stripping run since all the heads and tails are in there. I think what helped is my boiler has a built in overtemp, so once the element was coated, it shutdown which was around 115F. How obvious will the scorched taste be if it is bad?
Post Reply