Single malt whiskey using LME

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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Trapped-in-Oz »

shadylane wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:40 pm

What temp do you ferment at and how long do you wait
My last completed LME started on 1 June and finished on 10 June (overnight in fridge), strips on 11 June.

Ten days at between 22 C and 28 C
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by shadylane »

Trapped-in-Oz wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:49 pm
shadylane wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:40 pm

What temp do you ferment at and how long do you wait
My last completed LME started on 1 June and finished on 10 June (overnight in fridge), strips on 11 June.

Ten days at between 22 C and 28 C

So your fermenting at a lower temp
And doing a cold crash before running?
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Trapped-in-Oz »

shadylane wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:09 pm

doing a cold crash

Not heard of ‘cold crash’ before………. after ten days it is already well-settled….. the time in fridge just clears it further.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by shadylane »

Trapped-in-Oz wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:17 pm
Not heard of ‘cold crash’ before………. after ten days it is already well-settled….. the time in fridge just clears it further.
Cold Crash
That's the name for what you've been doing right. :lol:
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Trapped-in-Oz »

shadylane wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:23 pm
Cold Crash

Okay……….. but I don't think the chilling is not the reason it’s devoid of gas.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by shadylane »

Trapped-in-Oz wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:44 pm
shadylane wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:23 pm
Cold Crash

Okay……….. but I don't think the chilling is not the reason it’s devoid of gas.
Cold Crash doesn't get rid of the gas. Probably just the opposite.
But it dos a fine job getting the ferment cleared and racked before degassing starts. :wink:
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Trapped-in-Oz »

.........why is your gas not released during fermentation ?
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by still_stirrin »

Non-fermentable material, such as the dextrine sugars or even proteins will hold CO2 in solution. For example, wheat beers are typically foamy when poured, especially if it was bottled with yeast (mit hefe). The proteins hold it good.

So, with your LME that seems “flat”, ie - not much CO2 expiring, then the LME is probably a lager style extract that has little residual protein or non-fermentable materials. The CO2 will then naturally bubble up and escape during the last portion of the ferment..

Or…..you could just be “very special”. :ebiggrin:
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Saltbush Bill »

All washes that I have ever made retain gas....grain, sugar or molasse it matters not.
An example below. ......I could have splashed this rum wash back and forth another 4-5 times and still got gas out of it. Having said that once into the bucket then tipped hard and fast into the boiler is enough for me.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by OtisT »

Trapped-in-Oz wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:16 pm Thanks guys, that’s terrific information on malt extracts….. and how to release co2…….. but I am still searching to understand the reason my LME washes are flat, no gas, no mountains of foam.
I’m guessing it is because you have a fairly low powered boiler. I had to run my LME washes at a low power setting to begin with, where I was still foaming a lot but not enough to puke. This was with a bit of butter in the boiler. As the run continued, the foaming would go down a little so I would raise the power a little until it was about to puke again. I kept raising power as the foaming subsided until I got up to my normal power. That was at about 1/4 to 1/3 through the run.

Someone else mentioned this earlier in the thread but I don’t recall it being ruled out.

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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by shadylane »

That's a good looking Rum wash. Salty :wink:

My fermenter also has a side drain.
I use gravity to drain it into a bucket. Leaving most of the sediment in the fermenter.
The bucket has a small sump pump sitting in it, to fill the boiler.

If need be.
Once the boiler is filled.
I'll drain it back into the bucket and pump it back into the boiler as needed.
Might even add a little heat to increase the degassing speed.

Posting with Otis T
Good point Brother. :thumbup:
Last edited by shadylane on Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Trapped-in-Oz »

still_stirrin wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:27 pm
the LME is probably a lager style extract that has little residual protein
Don’t know about ‘lager style’ but the manufacturer of the roasted dark extract I use do claim to have removed excess proteins.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by JakeB »

I haven't had time to check in in awhile, but it looks like a lot of people have had issues with puking. Mine did not puke at all, though I think I might not have been all that worried if I got a little wash in my stripping run. I did 2 dme washes using golden light dme. For both I did a protein rest on the wert (about 4kg of dme to 10l of water). Basically boiled lightly about 20 min until it went dark but clear (it was cloudy almost creamy looking to start out with). Topped up to 5 gallons, pitched yeast that included enzymes (liquor Quick Whiskey pure). Once dry and reasonably clear, I racked it off leaving a nice yeast cake behind, then spent a fair bit of effort on degassing.

As others said, this one did continue to foam up after like 6 times vigorously stirring until it was too foamy to continue, then I dumped it pretty violently in to my boiler and added a couple drops of anti foam, with a 3/4 boiler charge. No puking at all. Did 2 washes like that, then diluted the result to 40% (probably around 12 litres) and ran a spirit run. Imade my cuts and diluted the result to 55%abv and wound up with about 5.5 -6l of white whiskey, 1 gallon of which I aged on French oak, came out really nice, well woth it. I drank some white while waiting for the aging, have some white left to add to my next batch. The aged spirit is so much better, let it sit at least 30 days on wood, you won't be disappointed.

Long story short, for those of you having trouble with puking, do a protein rest, use glucoamylase in your wash, ferment to dry, got mine to .995, with enzymes you should be able to get to at least 1.000, degass as thoroughly as you can stand to, and add some anti foam, butter or oil. DME/LME wash is pricy and a fair bit of work to prevent puking, but well worth the cost and the effort.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by The Baker »

A bit different slant on this.

My brother-in-law makes beer from 'kits'.
I am pretty sure the kit includes (I think liquid) malt extract.

It would be interesting to distil a batch of his beer (probably not, or lightly, hopped.)

What do you think??

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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Trapped-in-Oz »

The Baker wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:28 pm
My brother-in-law makes beer from 'kits'.

... be interesting to distil a batch of his beer

Kits are LME with hops………. tins of extract also available without hops………. works fine…… use M-1 yeast for best result……….. add polenta for a ‘blended style’.

Last year (following the first round of lock-downs) a few Australian breweries sent their unsold beer to ‘whiskey makers’.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by The Baker »

Trapped-in-Oz wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:37 pm
The Baker wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:28 pm
My brother-in-law makes beer from 'kits'.

... be interesting to distil a batch of his beer

Kits are LME with hops………. tins of extract also available without hops………. works fine…… use M-1 yeast for best result……….. add polenta for a ‘blended style’.

Last year (following the first round of lock-downs) a few Australian breweries sent their unsold beer to ‘whiskey makers’.
Thanks.
I would probably just get him to ferment it and I will do the distilling.

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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by shadylane »

I just finished strip #2
Did it the way Bubba suggested.
There was 3.6 gallons of low-wines this time.
I didn't measure the abv, only tasted, smelled and filled the jugs.
With a 55L boiler charge, 55mL was forshots cut.
Didn't shut off the power until I got tired of sampling whiskey flavored water.

Instead of fighting LMEs tendency to foam up.
Last night, I filled the boiler, brought it to temp and turned off the power.
Today, when doing the stripping run the LME wash didn't want to foam up near as much.

I'll start the third and last ferment tomorrow.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by shadylane »

Instead of doing one last ferment with the LME I had left over.
I split the LME between 2 batches.
One with enzymes and the other without.
Just to see what difference the enzymes make on final gravity and tendency to foam up.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by rubberduck71 »

What's all you guys' thoughts on Yellow Label Angel yeast as a means to get at those unfermentable sugars? It has enzymes already in it...
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Grundefuht »

Let me tell you a story.
I may do mistakes in some words(English is not my native) - don't judge me rough plz.
I do not pretend that my method is most right. It is just story of my experiment I wish to share.
I know that you use gallons and pounds but my units are kg and litres. nothing I can do
I do not produce drinks for sale and do not perform any illegal activity
My still is less than 30gals, and I am pure hobbyist


4 years ago. May 2017, I made a decision to try to produce Single Malt from LME (Liquid Malt Extract as I understand).
I had no easy access to super ingredients and had to stick to simple ones. So no magic yeasts, barrels from «ultra super duper oak» and so on.
All story took about 5 month for me. most of that time I read, read, buy ingredients, wait delivering, read, read, and lil more reading.
Then about month fermenting and running.

Let’s start.
1. How much LME is needed?
my LME Producer stated for consumers that:
a. dry part of LME is 79%
b. Fermentable part of sugars is 80%
having no idea about possible spirit/kg of malt sugar I took numbers of 550ml/kg (just like for normal sugar)
so 1 kg of LME is 1000x80%x79% = 632gr of sugars x550ml/kg = 347 ml of pure spirit per kg of LME
Now I know from my experiments(lets call it experiments) that LME produce bout 317-330 ml of Ethanol (in Lower Wines) per 1 kg. It depends on conditions, tails cutting and many more points but it was never less than 280 and never more than 360.

Since my plan was to fill 50l barrel with 65% AbV - I got about 100kg of LME
It is sold in neat Polyethylene(PE) cans by 15kg each - easy to toss.

2. How much water to add
I do not know how much water I added, but my mix was pointed to 15% BRIX
So I poured a can to PE barrel, poured like a 30 litres of hot water mixed, checked BRIX and added cold water to match plans.
15 kg of LME made for me about 85 litres of wash.

3. Yeasts - used simple bakery yeasts 100gr per portion.
4. Active fermentation took about 2 days (and it was like boiling) see attachment. Then I did wait 2 days more for settling. tastes like a nice dark beer w/o hops.

5. Stripping run. This one could be pretty much simple. Just boiled it until its 0. But:
a. Foam is a mess. Once you try to speed up process- foam starts rising like a volcano. Answer is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polydimethylsiloxane
this is an antifoam agent(AA) widely used in food production, also this is a main component of some medicine drugs (carminative). Wiki says enough about it.
so my 1st run was to Drugstore to get some Simeticone (i don't know how its named in the other countries than my one)
for the next stripping runs I prepared with cheaper AA I found in some stores for food production
b. Coal building up on heaters. Either you have to perpetual mix while boiling and lower the heating speed or you will see black coal inside your still.
for several runs its OK - but then its starts to smell (I had to change heaters twice and after that season I moved as fast as I could to SteamBoiling)

6. Spirit run.
here on HD I found an article(can’t find it anymore) stating best(in my opinion) cuts on 2nd run. Now I'm 100% sure - in 2017 I just believed in it.
here it is (percents are of total Absolute Alcohol in lower wines):
0,5% is Foreshots and treated as it should
~17% is Heads (High Feints) - goes to the Feints Tank
54% - Hearts (collecting no more than 75% and no less than 55% AbV)
what is left - Tails - goes to the same Feints Tank as a Heads.
Next 2nd run Feints from Feints tank should be added to lower wines (to raise Abv to ~30-33%)
I do not pretend to be author of these cuts. I do not pretend they are best ones. It is just my opinion.

Thats it.
After making bunch of runs I got refreshing drink to fill my oak barrel(for 1 month it was filled with clean water, changed every 2-3 days).

RESULTS(this is the best part):
Product was aged in oak barrel from Oct 2017 to Dec 2020. Lil more than 3 years.
IMG_2994.jpeg
During ageing I allowed myself to steal some of contents to try «If it is ready?» - NO.
first year - don’t touch. It is just a moonshine.
2nd year - it tastes like a very young whiskey. Too young.
by end of 2nd year I diluted it to 40 Abv and waited more. I got an extra jar of very young whiskey at this step. it helped me waiting confident and patient.

Once 3 years past - it tastes like … well its not Glen 12(it is exactly aimed to). But its much better than simple sorts of whisky and whiskey.
Angel's share. not easy to calculate since I was some kind of angel myself. but it is about 30% for 3 years. It is very good result, because after ageing and diluting to 40% you will have full barrel of whiskey.

My conclusion to this experiment is:
Good SM from LME is more than possible.
Most You need are :
1. Steam Still (avoid coal on heaters and bad taste)
2. Oak barrel
3. At least 3 years of patience.

Thats all folks
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by 8Ball »

Grundefuht wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:18 am Let me tell you a story.
I may do mistakes in some words(English is not my native) - don't judge me rough plz.
I do not pretend that my method is most right. It is just story of my experiment I wish to share.
I know that you use gallons and pounds but my units are kg and litres. nothing I can do
I do not produce drinks for sale and do not perform any illegal activity
My still is less than 30gals, and I am pure hobbyist


4 years ago. May 2017, I made a decision to try to produce Single Malt from LME (Liquid Malt Extract as I understand).
I had no easy access to super ingredients and had to stick to simple ones. So no magic yeasts, barrels from «ultra super duper oak» and so on.
All story took about 5 month for me. most of that time I read, read, buy ingredients, wait delivering, read, read, and lil more reading.
Then about month fermenting and running.

Let’s start.
1. How much LME is needed?
my LME Producer stated for consumers that:
a. dry part of LME is 79%
b. Fermentable part of sugars is 80%
having no idea about possible spirit/kg of malt sugar I took numbers of 550ml/kg (just like for normal sugar)
so 1 kg of LME is 1000x80%x79% = 632gr of sugars x550ml/kg = 347 ml of pure spirit per kg of LME
Now I know from my experiments(lets call it experiments) that LME produce bout 317-330 ml of Ethanol (in Lower Wines) per 1 kg. It depends on conditions, tails cutting and many more points but it was never less than 280 and never more than 360.

Since my plan was to fill 50l barrel with 65% AbV - I got about 100kg of LME
It is sold in neat Polyethylene(PE) cans by 15kg each - easy to toss.

2. How much water to add
I do not know how much water I added, but my mix was pointed to 15% BRIX
So I poured a can to PE barrel, poured like a 30 litres of hot water mixed, checked BRIX and added cold water to match plans.
15 kg of LME made for me about 85 litres of wash.

3. Yeasts - used simple bakery yeasts 100gr per portion.
4. Active fermentation took about 2 days (and it was like boiling) see attachment. Then I did wait 2 days more for settling. tastes like a nice dark beer w/o hops.

5. Stripping run. This one could be pretty much simple. Just boiled it until its 0. But:
a. Foam is a mess. Once you try to speed up process- foam starts rising like a volcano. Answer is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polydimethylsiloxane
this is an antifoam agent(AA) widely used in food production, also this is a main component of some medicine drugs (carminative). Wiki says enough about it.
so my 1st run was to Drugstore to get some Simeticone (i don't know how its named in the other countries than my one)
for the next stripping runs I prepared with cheaper AA I found in some stores for food production
b. Coal building up on heaters. Either you have to perpetual mix while boiling and lower the heating speed or you will see black coal inside your still.
for several runs its OK - but then its starts to smell (I had to change heaters twice and after that season I moved as fast as I could to SteamBoiling)

6. Spirit run.
here on HD I found an article(can’t find it anymore) stating best(in my opinion) cuts on 2nd run. Now I'm 100% sure - in 2017 I just believed in it.
here it is (percents are of total Absolute Alcohol in lower wines):
0,5% is Foreshots and treated as it should
~17% is Heads (High Feints) - goes to the Feints Tank
54% - Hearts (collecting no more than 75% and no less than 55% AbV)
what is left - Tails - goes to the same Feints Tank as a Heads.
Next 2nd run Feints from Feints tank should be added to lower wines (to raise Abv to ~30-33%)
I do not pretend to be author of these cuts. I do not pretend they are best ones. It is just my opinion.

Thats it.
After making bunch of runs I got refreshing drink to fill my oak barrel(for 1 month it was filled with clean water, changed every 2-3 days).

RESULTS(this is the best part):
Product was aged in oak barrel from Oct 2017 to Dec 2020. Lil more than 3 years.
IMG_0394.jpeg
During ageing I allowed myself to steal some of contents to try «If it is ready?» - NO.
first year - don’t touch. It is just a moonshine.
2nd year - it tastes like a very young whiskey. Too young.
by end of 2nd year I diluted it to 40 Abv and waited more. I got an extra jar of very young whiskey at this step. it helped me waiting confident and patient.

Once 3 years past - it tastes like … well its not Glen 12(it is exactly aimed to). But its much better than simple sorts of whisky and whiskey.
Angel's share. not easy to calculate since I was some kind of angel myself. but it is about 30% for 3 years. It is very good result, because after ageing and diluting to 40% you will have full barrel of whiskey.

My conclusion to this experiment is:
Good SM from LME is more than possible.
Most You need are :
1. Steam Still (avoid coal on heaters and bad taste)
2. Oak barrel
3. At least 3 years of patience.

Thats all folks
Grundefuht, Great story! Very nice write up. Thanks for posting.
🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by shadylane »

8Ball wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:20 am
Grundefuht, Great story! Very nice write up. Thanks for posting.
+1 Any and all thoughts and ideas help.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by shadylane »

Here's the latest update.

The two equal LME ferments, started at 1.051ish, one with enzymes and the other without.
Both fermented basically the same, until the SG hit around 1.012ish
The ferment without enzymes slowed down considerably at this point. It's now at 1.010 and very slowly chugging along.
The ferment with enzymes kept going until 1.002ish and is starting to clear.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Deplorable »

That's a pretty significant gain from the enzymes.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Twisted Brick »

.
Excellent reporting Shady. You can take a wort designed to end up sweet and get the most out of it.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by shadylane »

All the stripping runs are done.
64 pounds of LME has been converted into 8 gallons of low-wines.
I don't know what the ABV will be until all the jugs are combined.
When I empty the jugs into the boiler, I'll take a sample and see what my cheap Proof & Tralle Hydrometer says.
I was going to measure all the jugs and figure out the average. But the hydrometer is almost useless on it's lower scale.

Next on the list is figuring out how to do the spirit run.
Should I do one more run and call it done.
Should I run it twice. I'd like to do that, but there may not be enough in the pot to keep the heater submerged.
Or should I use the CM column with one or more plates.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by HDNB »

i was really pleased with the results after running on 2 plates
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Twisted Brick »

shadylane wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:51 pm
Next on the list is figuring out how to do the spirit run.
Should I do one more run and call it done.
Should I run it twice. I'd like to do that, but there may not be enough in the pot to keep the heater submerged.
Or should I use the CM column with one or more plates.
I think your hydrometer is going to show you the way. :D
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by shadylane »

The total low wines poured into the boiler was 8.1 gallons @ 31%
I diluted it around 20% and slapped on the pot-still head.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Stonecutter »

Shadylane
IMHUMBLEO stripping runs ought to have gotten you clear of the “nasties”. I was going to suggest the mild reflux route but I like the pot still head route just the same. Are you still going to run it another time? In the end (which is still to come) do you think it was worth it to use LME instead of grains?
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