Single malt whiskey using LME

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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by shadylane »

There's several tricks of the trade to deal with foaming up and puking. :wink:
Turn down the heat, stir, add a little oil, etc.
When I do the first stripping run, We'll see what or if anything is needed.

Since I only have a single fermenter.
I'll let it keep clearing until some more LME arrives.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by shadylane »

Twisted Brick wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 7:02 pm
Saltbush Bill wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 5:09 pm Nothing other than Ive used it as an additive in a bastardized version of UJSSM .......one tin went a long way as far as flavour goes.
That's brilliant. Never thought of doing that!
Bubba also uses LME in a bastardized version of UJSSM
What he makes is good enough to brag about.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

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shadylane wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:18 pm
Bubba also uses LME in a bastardized version of UJSSM
What he makes is good enough to brag about.
I would not doubt that one iota. i think all possibilities are positively obtainable.

I am still curious about the extent of the 'foaming coefficient' given your gluco treatment of the LME and the most exemplary FG of .999.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

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Twisted Brick wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:04 pm
I am still curious about the extent of the 'foaming coefficient' given your gluco treatment of the LME and the most exemplary FG of .999.
If everything goes according to plan. Tomorrow we will find out. :wink:
UPS just delivered another 32 pounds of LME.
Time to empty the fermenter into the boiler and strip it, to make room for the next mash.
I'm too drunk to do it safely tonight, so we will have to wait till morning. :lol:
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

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shadylane wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:31 pm
Twisted Brick wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:04 pm
I am still curious about the extent of the 'foaming coefficient' given your gluco treatment of the LME and the most exemplary FG of .999.
If everything goes according to plan. Tomorrow we will find out. :wink:
UPS just delivered another 32 pounds of LME.
Time to empty the fermenter into the boiler and strip it, to make room for the next mash.
I'm too drunk to do it safely tonight, so we will have to wait till morning. :lol:
Hahaha. Been there!
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by nerdybrewer »

shadylane wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:31 pm
Twisted Brick wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:04 pm
I am still curious about the extent of the 'foaming coefficient' given your gluco treatment of the LME and the most exemplary FG of .999.
If everything goes according to plan. Tomorrow we will find out. :wink:
UPS just delivered another 32 pounds of LME.
Time to empty the fermenter into the boiler and strip it, to make room for the next mash.
I'm too drunk to do it safely tonight, so we will have to wait till morning. :lol:
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by shadylane »

I can say for a fact. A LME wash wants to puke.
It's got the biggest head of foam, I've ever seem on a beer. :shock:
I discovered that when degassing the wash.
The first puke happened even before the boiler was fully up to temp.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Trapped-in-Oz »

shadylane wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:54 pm
I can say for a fact. A LME wash wants to puke.

The first puke happened even before the boiler was fully up to temp.
Other than suggestions to try a different LME, yeast and include some wheat germ……………… I going to ask… what is your head-space to wash ratio ?
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by shadylane »

The boiler was around 70% full.
If it hadn't been for a small accident, it would have been 75% full.
After the initial drama, everything settled down and I was able to turn the power up.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

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Learning to tame a puke is part of the learnin.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by HDNB »

shadylane wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:54 pm I can say for a fact. A LME wash wants to puke.
It's got the biggest head of foam, I've ever seem on a beer. :shock:
I discovered that when degassing the wash.
The first puke happened even before the boiler was fully up to temp.
LOL. i hate to laugh at others misfortune...but did you think i was pushin' your leg? :lol:

That foam would make a nice meringue if you kept the egg beater on it long enough!

it does finally settle, but it's a handful. try a bunch of butter on the next one. it helps.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Twisted Brick »

shadylane wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:43 pm
After the initial drama, everything settled down and I was able to turn the power up.
Glad to see you recovered Shady. A great heads up for those who follow in your footsteps.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Trapped-in-Oz »

shadylane wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:43 pm
The boiler was around 70% full.

That’s a huge space for foaming….. are you saying the entire 30% of the boiler did fill with foam ?

how exhilarating……...… my LME are tame, boring and almost flat.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

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Trapped-in-Oz wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:03 pm
That’s a huge space for foaming….. are you saying the entire 30% of the boiler did fill with foam ?
Here's the rest of the story. :roll:

My keg sized boiler has two 4500w electric elements.
One was running 25% power. And the other was around 65%
The game plan was to get the boiler to temp then turn down the power.

I was fiddling around putting a sight glass together.
Figured to install it on top the boiler to watch for foaming.
The boiler wasn't near being up to temp, but localized boiling around the heaters was enough to cause a massive foam up.
There was a rumbling/gushing sound :shock:
I looked up and hot, foamy, amber wash was shooting out the condenser. OOHH shit. I turned off the power!
Luckily I had the jug sitting in a big enough, high sided SS container to hold the mess. :thumbup:

I let the pot cool down for a moment and poured the mess back into the pot.
Installed the sight glass and fired the pot-still back up.
As the run progressed, I was able to slowly turn the power up.
Around 2500W divided between the two heaters was the most possible at the beginning.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

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After stripping there was 2.4 gallons @ 38%
Looks like I ended the run too early. :oops:
When I was sampling the jars this morning, the last one tasted like watered down whiskey.
There was around 5% alcohol and a thin film of oil floating on top.

For the second batch of wash, I poured half the available LME in the fermenter.
Filled it with water to the 15gallon mark and mixed in some Gluco.
The SG was around 1.052ish It was difficult to get an accurate measurement due to all the foam.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by shadylane »

HDNB wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:41 pm
shadylane wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:54 pm I can say for a fact. A LME wash wants to puke.
LOL. i hate to laugh at others misfortune...but did you think i was pushin' your leg? :lol:

That foam would make a nice meringue if you kept the egg beater on it long enough!

it does finally settle, but it's a handful. try a bunch of butter on the next one. it helps.
I kinda figured it would like to foam up. But I had to see it for myself. :lol:
If I was smart, I'd dig around in the junk boxes and find a boiler agitator I built awhile back.
That, and pay better attention next time. :roll:
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Trapped-in-Oz »

Question about LME and enzymes ?

Coppers are an Australian brewery that also produces LME……… and claims to have….. “ unique low temperature evaporation method “... for their LME.

I have read that excessive temperature will destroy enzymes.

Is it possible that some LME retain active enzymes ?
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Low temp evap = under vacuum. That how most concentrates are made.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Hambone »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:40 pm Low temp evap = under vacuum. That how most concentrates are made.
Freeze dried…partially?
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by shadylane »

Trapped-in-Oz wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:28 pm
Is it possible that some LME retain active enzymes ?
I'm sure it's possible.
The LME used for these ferments is devoid of enzymes.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by HDNB »

even with agitation mine was mt. Vesuvius....even with butter, agitation and careful heat it still took forever (like 6 hours) for it to get past wanting to spill her guts.
I tried 5 different strips to success and it eluded me at every turn.

the resulting whiskey was/is fine as frogs fur though...

i never tried that beer anit foam stuff tho...wassit called? fermcap? Jimbo talked about it a long time ago.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Hambone »

I’ve never had this unavoidable puking (though I’m sure that I’m not immune). But I put my defoamer in at mash in, not at distillation. Maybe it makes a difference?
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by shadylane »

In this case.
I'm thinking the co2 left over from fermentation was a big contributor to foaming up.
When I slowly drained the fermenter into a 5 gallon bucket, so I could transfer to the boiler.
Looked like 2 gallons was foam. It would have made a damn good beer.

I'm guessing fermenting at a lower temp or properly degassing would help.
The batch I'm doing now will be done a little different.
Starting with a lower ferment temp.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Saltbush Bill »

shadylane wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:31 pm properly degassing would help.
Reckon that's at least half the answer, all Molasses wash's can get real gassy at times to.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Birrofilo »

Trapped-in-Oz wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:28 pm Is it possible that some LME retain active enzymes ?
No it isn't, because those products are sold to the homebrewing (or the brewing) community, and having active enzymes in the product would be a non-desirable quality, actually it would be quite a serious fault.

What they do is they denaturate completely the enzymes (by bringing the wort up to 80°C more or less) and then dry the wort in the most gentle way possible in order not to damage the aroma and not to "cook" it too much (which would bring caramelization, Maillard reactions, loss of aromas etc.).
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Trapped-in-Oz »

Birrofilo wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:04 am
No it isn't, ...............
Okay thanks.
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Is exciting to read of volcanoes and surging foam………….. but alas I get nix but a lily pond.

If there can be such an abundance of gas in what is supposed to be finished wash… why?
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by still_stirrin »

Malt extracts (either liquid/syrup or dry/powder) are produced as a basic fermentable product for making beers, and to be consumable as beers. The extracts are mashed and then the wort may, or may not be hopped in a kettle boil. If hopped, the boil most certainly will kill all active enzyme reduction. And even the unhopped extracts likely have been boiled to remove residual proteins that could cloud the finished beers.

The extracts are then reduced to a syrup by removing much of the water (which is fundamental in a wort), either by an extended kettle boil or vacuum processing at a lower temperature. An extended kettle boil would without doubt change the color of the wort and caramelize sugars too.

While some “beer kits” packaged with malt extracts are developed for a specific style of beer, often much of the malt extracts are produced now for “baseline” beer making to which additional adjuncts (specialty grains) and stylistic hops are needed to produce a specific style of beer. The science has changed/matured a lot in the last 25-30 years, especially since the development of the craft brewing industry worldwide.

As to how Coopers (not “Coppers”), produces their extracts, I believe they do use vacuum reduction of the worts. I’ve used Coopers extracts in beers before and they typically are “generic” in quality, meaning they’re a good base extract to add adjunct grains to in order to make a signature style lager. However, even with vacuum processing, there is no active enzyme content in the extracts. Again, the wort is kettle boiled during manufacturing, thereby denaturing all enzyme activity from the mash process.

Using a LME or DME in a ferment for a spirit would be a simple shortcut to the fermenter, since the fermentable sugars have already been extracted from the grain grist. However, often in production of extracts, some of the sugars in the extract are not fermentables because the extracts are made for beer, not distiller’s beers.

But that is not to say, you cannot recover the fermentable sugars from the non-fermentables…you can, if you make the conditions right (temperature and pH) and add gluco-amylase enzymes and allow them to reduce the non-fermentable sugars.

Only disadvantage to using malt extracts as a base for a spirit is the cost of the extract. Typically, malt extract is more expensive pound for pound than the cereal malt grains even considering shipping. You will always pay for the labor and equipment costs the extract producer has invested to make the extract.

So, if you’ve got it…use it!
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I use a vacuum system for degassing in carboys and it works better when the fermented wort is slightly heated (with a heating pad) for a day or so to about 75-80*F before applying the vacuum.. It foams a lot so you need to control and remove the vacuum repeatedly as you degas. Racking between carboys under vacuum also helps release the CO2... Consider a warm and cold bottle of soda - the warm one will give up it's fizziness much easier than a cold one.. Same idea except adding vacuum to further pull CO2 out of the liquid..

This vacuum system - works great for xfers and degassing...
https://www.allinonewinepump.com/

Without some added warmth and vacuum it could take months to degass naturally. This minimizes it to a day or days...

Cheers!
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by Trapped-in-Oz »

Thanks guys, that’s terrific information on malt extracts….. and how to release co2…….. but I am still searching to understand the reason my LME washes are flat, no gas, no mountains of foam.

With lively washes holding so much gas... why was the gas not released during fermentation ?
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME

Post by shadylane »

Trapped-in-Oz wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:16 pm Thanks guys, that’s terrific information on malt extracts….. and how to release co2…….. but I am still searching to understand the reason my LME washes are flat, no gas, no mountains of foam.
What temp do you ferment at and how long do you wait
I'm guessing you ferment the wash like it was for a lager beer.

Trapped-in-Oz wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:16 pm With lively washes holding so much gas... why was the gas not released during fermentation ?
The gas is released during fermentation. Into the liquid.
Yeast dos a fine job of carbonating beer.
Last edited by shadylane on Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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