5 grain bourbon ideas

Grain bills and instruction for all manner of alcoholic beverages.

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RockinRockies
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5 grain bourbon ideas

Post by RockinRockies »

This year I'm going to make as much bourbon during fall and winter months as I can to fill the largest barrel I can. Probably 20 gallon max but likely 15. I want to age in real wood larger than 5 gallons.

I'm going to go wider than my normal but stricter than anything commercial. What flavor profile would you folks expect from a combo of this sort?

60% corn
10% barley
10% rye
10% malted red wheat
10% oats

Ferment on grain with enzymes for maximum conversion, 2#/ gallon

Is the threshold at 10% of each enough to impart noticeable characteristics or is pushing past 4 just getting into mild and boring by over amalgamating? I fear that may be too many grains, yet I figured the mouth feel of the oats and the smoothness of the wheat would counteract the spice of the rye.

Otherwise I'd probably go wheated malt with only barley
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I'm experimenting with one coming up that uses something like this:

Approximate grain-bill:
Corn = 59%
Barley malt = 16%
Wheat malt = 12%
Specialty malt / Other = 13%

It's using 10 different grains though with three different corns, one main barley, two wheats, three different specialty malts, and two different oats. I might bump the regular quick oats a little to push the specialty down to 10% and it'll be slightly under 2#/gallon - Expecting about 6 gallons of barrel strength for a new 5g gibbs on this one. I haven't done a bourbon with this diverse of a grain bill yet so we'll see but the various flavors in the malts and specialty malts should complement each-other well and oak + time will probably cover my recipe naivete and make it work well...
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

Post by still_stirrin »

RockinRockies wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:18 am Is the threshold at 10% of each enough to impart noticeable characteristics or is pushing past 4 just getting into mild and boring by over amalgamating?
Your recipe looks surprisingly close to my Special K (see my signature). But, I use 50% corn and 25% malted barley. And I use flaked oats from the grocery store at 5% of the grainbill. And instead of rye, I use milo (a sorghum grain we grow on our farm).

It makes a very nice bourbon … definitely “top shelf”. The flavors fit well together and it makes a very consumable drink. Age it on toasted and charred oak and you’ll love it after a year … if you can wait that long.
RockinRockies wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:18 am I fear that may be too many grains, yet I figured the mouth feel of the oats and the smoothness of the wheat would counteract the spice of the rye.
No, not too many grains.

The wheat will give you a “creamy softness” to the flavor and the oats adds “texture” as you’ve commented. I prefer a little more of the “bready goodness” imparted by the malted barley, hence my upping the percentage. And the milo, like rye, adds the “touch of spiciness” to add complexity to the bourbon. Of note, the corn is what makes a bourbon “sweet”, so that’s why I reduced it to 50% from 60% or more.

Great recipe. Enjoy.
ss
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

Post by TDick »

Something to consider.
I posted this on another thread because, like me, it's from Alabama.
I hate the terms "artisanal", "hand crafted" "small craft" all those buzz words, but apparently that's what this is.
I have NOT tried it yet. I have plenty of whiskey and his prices are $40, $50, $70 per bottle and his most recent BIB is $129.00.
But as long as your doing five grain, you might consider SIX.
Seth Dettling says his mashbill is:
70 % corn - non GMO
15 % Canadian rye
12% Oats
3 % malts consisting of,
Chilean Medium Roast Barley
German Dark Roast Rye
German Medium Roast Wheat

(I don't know if it's 1/1/1 but he says a little goes a long way for flavor)
Here's the results according to Fred Minnick:
(you can tell Old Fred been doing some sampling)

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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

Post by BourbonBoi »

That mash bill of the Dettling looks intriguing, those malts might take to a min to source, have to check the local shop. Thanks for the mash bill!
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

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BourbonBoi wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:37 pm That mash bill of the Dettling looks intriguing, those malts might take to a min to source, have to check the local shop. Thanks for the mash bill!
There are several youtube interviews with Seth Dettling.
It sounds like he's getting those German malts from beer making suppliers - obviously at a different volume.

Here's an interview with him with some interesting insight. I bumped it up to about 3:30.

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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

Post by Twisted Brick »

Thanks for sharing TDick. After watching the video I found this Dettling bourbon review on The Whiskey Vault and the grain bill (corn, roasted rye, roasted wheat and roasted barley) definitely got my attention. Think I'm gonna be tackling this grain bill before too long.

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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

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Twisted Brick wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:03 am Thanks for sharing TDick. After watching the video I found this Dettling bourbon review on The Whiskey Vault and the grain bill (corn, roasted rye, roasted wheat and roasted barley) definitely got my attention. Think I'm gonna be tackling this grain bill before too long.

How many pages on a legal pad is you grain bill wish list now?
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

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Man, I don't know. My spreadsheet of wanna-do bills is getting stoopidly long. It's just that they're all yummy sounding. We should split some of the list and swap what we make? I have this feeling I'm gonna run out of time before I run out of grain bills.
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

Post by jonnys_spirit »

My last all grain batch was mashed and spirit run in two weeks. The sugar head off that took a few more weeks before I was done and cut. I've got grains on-hand for two more AG+Sugarhead batches just need time to do em then I've got some blue agave and melter honey batches to get through and probably a couple all feints runs topped with some sugar wash in there plus a grappa coming up this fall!

Y'all are killing me!

Cheers,
j
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

Post by Twisted Brick »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:51 am My last all grain batch was mashed and spirit run in two weeks. The sugar head off that took a few more weeks before I was done and cut. I've got grains on-hand for two more AG+Sugarhead batches just need time to do em then I've got some blue agave and melter honey batches to get through and probably a couple all feints runs topped with some sugar wash in there plus a grappa coming up this fall!

Y'all are killing me!

Cheers,
j
It's good keepin' yer boiler busy, j-man. Keeps you outta trouble, yes?
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

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Deplorable wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:32 am
Twisted Brick wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:03 am Thanks for sharing TDick. After watching the video I found this Dettling bourbon review on The Whiskey Vault and the grain bill (corn, roasted rye, roasted wheat and roasted barley) definitely got my attention. Think I'm gonna be tackling this grain bill before too long.

Whiskey Vault video
How many pages on a legal pad is you grain bill wish list now?
This is the video I got the mashbill from. Goes more in-depth.
I cued it up to skip the introductions & fluff and the backend goes into cooking wings.
I know how I like MY wings, so that's another topic.
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

Post by 6 Row Joe »

I am a long way away from my recipe book but I mixed corn, rye, chocolate malt, caramel malt, some 2 row, and some sugar. The white dog is quite tasty and my sample was in the middle of a strip run. A spirit run and put it on oak and it should be real good.
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

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Today is spirit run day. Damn stuff is really good right out of the spout.
What will it be like on oak for a while?

4 gal water
3.5# hand shelled corn ground to a coarse meal
1.5# rye
.5# chocolate malt
.5# caramel malt
.5# 2 row
Ran the corn separate from the small grains, sparged with a gallon of hot water
The SG was low so I added 8# sugar and a gallon or so of water to 1.085 SG
Adjusted PH to 5.0
Pitched DADY at 74°
6 gallon total yield

At 120+ proof the shine is very smooth, sweet, caramel flavored with a hint of chocolate . It has some viscosity and a great mouth feel. The finish sticks around for a long time. I will make this again for sure. May be try a little harder to get more efficiency and use less or no sugar.

I collected most of the run in 1/2 pint jars. Even jar #2 at 160 proof is smooth and flavorful enough to sip neat. It'll knock your dick in the dirt though. LOL
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rubberduck71
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

Post by rubberduck71 »

I believe the specialty malts don't have any diastatic power, so just 1/2 lb of 2 row wasn't enough to covert the corn & rye efficiently. Maybe use rye malt next time?

The flavor profile sounds delicious, but with 8 lb sugar it's more of a sugarhead than a true All-Grain recipe. NOT that there's anything wrong with that, but you're only getting 1 use out of the grains.

If you can't get better efficiency from next mashing, try that wonderful Angel Yellow Label yeast (HD search bar will take you right to it). It takes 6-8 weeks to arrive, and with 10 lbs of grain, you'll only need ~30g for each 25L bucket. It comes in 500g bricks, so plenty of bang for the buck. And you can still do sugarheads after getting great conversion from first ferment.

Duck
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

Post by RockinRockies »

I've done some crunching of numbers and I've decided on what I want to do to fill a full barrel. I've looked at used 30 gallons and 15 gallons, and if I'm going to do that much work, then I want to see what really happens when you fill a full barrel. Plus, I want it to be brand new. Based on cost it doesn't make sense not to fill a full size barrel just running the numbers, it's basically just my own labor, and I'm not working, and I've got enough saved up after the season that I don't care about the time.

The more I researched the raw ingredients and effort, it really just comes down to labor. I've got my system set up to be able to do it in my offseason.

I just bought the blickman $240 high temp pump today, all of my garage paint to waterproof the concrete in my brew room, as well as a big Wash tub to run my condenser and all I have to do once I get the room set up is set up the water situation for the reflux if I run that.

I'm going to attach my mop ringer to the wall and put a section of copper underneath of it so all the fluid drains so that I can dump it right into the secondary fermenter to let it clear. Then I'll use the pump to charge the boiler when it's ready.

The agitator I bought from China is definitely wired for 110 instead of 240 so we're trying to figure out how to do that properly but it looks like a good piece of machinery outside of that.

68% cracked corn with HT amylase and Gluco
9% of rye, wheat, and barley with
5% oats.
A mix of malted unmalted but mostly unmalted from the feed store.

Based on the numbers I just calculated I can do everything in 50 lb sacks and I can do it all for $600 without having any leftover grains. including the brand new char-barrel from Rocky mountain barrel company!

This has been a dream of mine since I had some great single barrels and my thought is: "that's going to be my off season- hunting, finishing the cabin, filling a real barrel and being done with sticks and glass". Then I'm set up for at least a decade after 4 years passes.

Just strip and strip and strip and strip; spirit; and strip and strip and strip; spirit... Etc. basically spend about 300 hours between December and March, maybe more.

Crazy am I? Good Chance. But I'm determined to make a dream come true and I don't give a darn what anyone thinks
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Do it! Might consider smaller 5g barrels of a few different chars and grain bills so you can have a selection. Or one barrel filled with whatever you want. Good luck!

-j
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

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I doubt you will be disappointed long term, nothing beats having barrels of well aged stock. Glass and sticks come a poor second.
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

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rubberduck71 wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:17 am I believe the specialty malts don't have any diastatic power, so just 1/2 lb of 2 row wasn't enough to covert the corn & rye efficiently. Maybe use rye malt next time?

The flavor profile sounds delicious, but with 8 lb sugar it's more of a sugarhead than a true All-Grain recipe. NOT that there's anything wrong with that, but you're only getting 1 use out of the grains.

If you can't get better efficiency from next mashing, try that wonderful Angel Yellow Label yeast (HD search bar will take you right to it). It takes 6-8 weeks to arrive, and with 10 lbs of grain, you'll only need ~30g for each 25L bucket. It comes in 500g bricks, so plenty of bang for the buck. And you can still do sugarheads after getting great conversion from first ferment.

Duck
I 100% agree. I didn't think about the flavored malts not having any diastatic power. I do have a few pounds of rye malt and some Amylase that I should have used. That Angel yeast seems to be all the rage lately and definitely worth a try. I have the flavor now to hone my skills for the efficiency. Thanks for the tips. Cheers.
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

Post by RockinRockies »

Okay I hope this is still on topic, I just found a once used barrel Mill 30 gallon barrel that had bourbon in it.

I'm an over analytical guy so a lot of times I'll shoot too high and have to rein myself back in. I guess it wouldn't be a bourbon then if it's in a once used barrel but my question then is:

how much softer and less bourbon tasting would it actually be or can I just leave it in there longer?

For $75 for a 30 gallon barrel that's sealed up, that's really hard for me to pass up for my first attempt to fill a sizable barrel
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

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RockinRockies wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:41 am Okay I hope this is still on topic, I just found a once used barrel Mill 30 gallon barrel that had bourbon in it.
It’s not. It is a derail, but since it is your thread, I guess you can derail if you’d like.

But realize that you’ve changed your thread from a “recipe development” thread to a “flavoring and aging” thread, which is where this question should really be asked (at least for the benefit of other hobby distillers besides you).

FYI - a 30 gallon “once used” barrel is not really a bargain to a hobby distiller unless you plan to do a lot of brewing and distilling. That’s a BIG JUG!
ss

p.s. - to get 30 gallons of product, you’re looking at roughly 600 gallons of ferment (assuming 10%ABV potential in your mash).
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

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Thank you sir as I was posting I was like I think I'm getting this off topic.

So yeah 600 gallons with my setup I do 50 gallon batches split up into two strips, I think last year I ran my 16 gallon 2-in column 25 times in 5 months.

So with the recipe development side of things do you think I'll see a benefit from going 5 grain or is that just silly and trying to do too much? I've had some by Leopold's that were pretty interesting and laws has a four grain bourbon that's pretty decent. It's really not that expensive to make a bourbon if you're using grains and enzymes
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

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I have a 5-grain bourbon recipe and it is well above the “top shelf” bourbons in my local package store. But, I have been a beer brewer, even commercially, for 30 years. I have many trophies in the den from contests across the country to show for it too. So, if you know what you’re doing, you can indeed craft a fine whiskey. But, it takes practice.
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

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Twisted Brick wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:41 am Man, I don't know. My spreadsheet of wanna-do bills is getting stoopidly long. It's just that they're all yummy sounding. We should split some of the list and swap what we make? I have this feeling I'm gonna run out of time before I run out of grain bills.
We could, if I had more time. After I get through this 5 gallon corn project, I'm gonna get after that 21% rye bill we talked about. While that's fermenting I'm gonna reflux all the feints from the corn runs. After that, I'm up for a suggestion.
I've got the bottles to ship samples of our "BBQ Suace" back and forth. :wink:
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

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You're on. After a straight corn likker for my neighbor I gotta get through a 100% rye using pale, caramel and honey rye malts. Then use the reserved backset for that high-rye bourbon you mentioned.
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

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Twisted Brick wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:02 pm You're on. After a straight corn likker for my neighbor I gotta get through a 100% rye using pale, caramel and honey rye malts. Then use the reserved backset for that high-rye bourbon you mentioned.
Yeah, this one. Sipped on some while grinding corn.
20210817_171615.jpg
Now I'm on a bit of my bourbon grains sugarhead white likker. 😋
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

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still_stirrin wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:28 pm I have a 5-grain bourbon recipe and it is well above the “top shelf” bourbons in my local package store. But, I have been a beer brewer, even commercially, for 30 years. I have many trophies in the den from contests across the country to show for it too. So, if you know what you’re doing, you can indeed craft a fine whiskey. But, it takes practice.
ss
Is it your Special K recipe from the Extra Grains thread? I like the idea of some oats for smoothness. Have you tried it with rye instead of milo? And lastly can you taste the milo flavor? (nutty and slightly sweet) Thanks SS
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Re: 5 grain bourbon ideas

Post by 6 Row Joe »

I edited my post above. A 3 gallon batch instead of 4.
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