Adding grains to corn

Grain bills and instruction for all manner of alcoholic beverages.

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Corn Cracker
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Adding grains to corn

Post by Corn Cracker »

I'm making up a 5 gl/9lb corn, corn mash, i have 5 pounds of rye and a couple pounds of rolled oats. I was going for all corn with 1 pound of rye, that's why i had the 9 pounds of corn cooking instead of 10 but, i have the others sitting there, would 1 pound each of the rye and rolled oats be enough to add for decent flavor?

I also have a half pound of honey malt i can put in, i know the honey bear bourbon calls for ½ pound in a 5gl mash, i had this left over from that.

I have about 30 to 45 minutes till it hits 155°, I'll check back for suggestions before i add anything.
I've never tried rye, on purpose anyway, and was thinking a pound would introduce me to it fine enough.
Any thoughts?
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Re: Adding grains to corn

Post by Dancing4dan »

Please proceed as described and report back on results.

Oats really change mouth feel fo me, in a good way. I add two pounds to a 16 gallon mash every time now.

Look forward to hearing how this goes.

Have never tried Rye.
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Re: Adding grains to corn

Post by Corn Cracker »

9# crushed corn
1# flaked rye
1# rolled oats
½# honey malt
5 gallons of water
Used gluco and reg amylase enzymes for conversion.
We'll see how it turns out
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Re: Adding grains to corn

Post by Corn Cracker »

I ended up adding a gallon of hot water after adding oats and rye to thin the mash, that left me with 3 gallons after removing the grain, sparged with 2 gallons to end up with 5 gallons with a sg of 1.044, that's a lil on the light side of what i expected but, that's ok.

Took the spent grain and soaked it in 2 gallons of hot water then sparged with another gallon, dissolved 3 pounds of sugar in 2 gallons of water and mixed for a 5g sugar head with an sg of 1.034 and that's ok too, hoping the lower s.g will produce a better product as per one of the threads I've read. It's about done ferminting now, I'm headed to the deer lease in a few hours so i can't run it till next week, sigh.
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Re: Adding grains to corn

Post by Ben »

3 or so weeks to ferment and settle all grain is fine. No real reason to rush it.
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Re: Adding grains to corn

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This 10 gallons was split into a 5 gallon and 4 gallon batch, leaving 1 gallon of yeast & sediment in the bucket, ran the 5 down to 10% and added the ¾ gallon low wines to the remaining 4 gallons, ran that down to 10% and collected ¾ of a gallon for a spirit run.
From the spirit run i collected a pint short of a half a gallon.
The tails were horrible smelling and present in everything collected that was under 100pr, i didn't use any of that. What i blended was everything but the tails, the first jar smelled great with the grainy notes and they went to smelling of the sweet caramel/ honey honeymalt after that.
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Re: Adding grains to corn

Post by Corn Cracker »

Dancing4dan wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:53 pm Please proceed as described and report back on results.

Oats really change mouth feel fo me, in a good way. I add two pounds to a 16 gallon mash every time now.

Look forward to hearing how this goes.

Have never tried Rye.
I think it turned out pretty good and It was a hit amongst the fam. I have a work buddy that's really into whiskey,(he's my go to tester) he liked it. I would suggest trying rye, i was using flaked, i tasted the raw grains, flaked and malted rye at the store and there is a definite but subtle difference.
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Re: Adding grains to corn

Post by Dancing4dan »

What type of corn did you use? Feed grade cracked corn takes a long time in heat to get soft enough for enzymes to work. I use flaked corn now but it is five times the $ here.
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Re: Adding grains to corn

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Dancing4dan wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:28 am What type of corn did you use? Feed grade cracked corn takes a long time in heat to get soft enough for enzymes to work. I use flaked corn now but it is five times the $ here.
Run that cracked corn through the roller mill with the rollers set as close as they'll go. It will improve your conversion.
I run whole corn through my grist mill to a course grind, by hand, then through the roller mill with drill power, and my conversion improved noticeably. I get the same OG with feed corn as I do with Bob's Red Mill corn meal using that method.
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Re: Adding grains to corn

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MG brand cracked corn from the feed store, it's the most uniform crack and cleanest corn I've found. I usually crush cracked corn in a Ninja blender to a heavy meal but this corn was cracked up perfect, I'd say 6 to 8 pieces per kernel.

Flaked corn at the hbs is $60 for 55 pounds, cracked $15 for 50 pounds. It's a couple extra hours to give it all the rest stops and such but i spend that 45 bucks on 6- row, rye, etc
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Re: Adding grains to corn

Post by still_stirrin »

Corn Cracker wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:33 am Flaked corn at the hbs is $60 for 55 pounds, cracked $15 for 50 pounds. It's a couple extra hours to give it all the rest stops and such but i spend that 45 bucks on 6- row, rye, etc
1-1/2 bushel (about 90lb.) of field corn is FREE out of the combine bin. :lol: I guess, that would “sell” to the local CO-OP for about $7-$8 if the price is good. The challenge is “how to store” that much grain until I need it to brew. I store it in the freezer (I have two 15 cu.ft. chest freezers explicitly used for brewing supplies). Storing in the freezer will “freeze” the moisture in the grain, keeping it from drying out further. It also kills any insect larvae (weevil) so you don’t end up with a “moving” grain sack.

One thing you can do to increase extract efficiency as well as enrich the flavor is to malt the grains. To do that, I soak the grains for 3 cycles of 8 to 10 hour soak in water followed by 8 to 10 hours of draining. This will raise the moisture content in the grains and trigger the germination. As it does this, the kernal will start it growth cycle which converts the carbohydrates to starches for the plant’s energy.

After the 3 soaking/draining cycles I put the grains in shallow trays and cover with a moist towel (to keep the grains hydrated) and place the trays in a warm and well lit area. The grains like the temperature in the 80* to 85*F range, so keeping the light on (with the grains covered with a moist towel) will help control mold from rampant outbreak. I also like to uncover and stir the grains a couple of times per day. This also helps reduce formation of mold on the grains.

Malting (sprouting of the grains) will require 4 to 5 days for corn but only 3 days for wheat. When sprouted, I then put the grains in a shallow screen-bottom tray and place it on a box fan with the air blowing up through the tray. I usually run the fan on “low” speed seed setting, but may turn it up if the grain bed is deeper than 1/2”. You’ll be able to feel the heat as the air blows through the grains. Depending on how deep the bed is, or how many lbs. of grain you have, this drying process may take 2 or 3 days, depending on ambient conditions too.

Once dried, the grains can be stored or ground for your brewday. The corn flavor (or wheat, if malting wheat) is rich and almost like a corn-flake cereal, making it very elegant in your bourbon. Also, malted grains have been “gelatinized” naturally via the germination process, so you can go straight to your saccharification temperature in the mash tun, ie - no need for a high temperature gelatinization step in your process.

Only caveat here is the kernal must be whole, not cracked in order to malt it. So, feed store cracked corn won’t work to malt. But, if you can go to the CO-OP, you can get whole corn by the bushel … for less! There is some advantage to living in “the harvest belt”. :ebiggrin:
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Re: Adding grains to corn

Post by Dancing4dan »

still_stirrin wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:37 am
Corn Cracker wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:33 am Flaked corn at the hbs is $60 for 55 pounds, cracked $15 for 50 pounds. It's a couple extra hours to give it all the rest stops and such but i spend that 45 bucks on 6- row, rye, etc
1-1/2 bushel (about 90lb.) of field corn is FREE out of the combine bin. :lol: I guess, that would “sell” to the local CO-OP for about $7-$8 if the price is good. The challenge is “how to store” that much grain until I need it to brew. I store it in the freezer (I have two 15 cu.ft. chest freezers explicitly used for brewing supplies). Storing in the freezer will “freeze” the moisture in the grain, keeping it from drying out further. It also kills any insect larvae (weevil) so you don’t end up with a “moving” grain sack.

One thing you can do to increase extract efficiency as well as enrich the flavor is to malt the grains. To do that, I soak the grains for 3 cycles of 8 to 10 hour soak in water followed by 8 to 10 hours of draining. This will raise the moisture content in the grains and trigger the germination. As it does this, the kernal will start it growth cycle which converts the carbohydrates to starches for the plant’s energy.

After the 3 soaking/draining cycles I put the grains in shallow trays and cover with a moist towel (to keep the grains hydrated) and place the trays in a warm and well lit area. The grains like the temperature in the 80* to 85*F range, so keeping the light on (with the grains covered with a moist towel) will help control mold from rampant outbreak. I also like to uncover and stir the grains a couple of times per day. This also helps reduce formation of mold on the grains.

Malting (sprouting of the grains) will require 4 to 5 days for corn but only 3 days for wheat. When sprouted, I then put the grains in a shallow screen-bottom tray and place it on a box fan with the air blowing up through the tray. I usually run the fan on “low” speed seed setting, but may turn it up if the grain bed is deeper than 1/2”. You’ll be able to feel the heat as the air blows through the grains. Depending on how deep the bed is, or how many lbs. of grain you have, this drying process may take 2 or 3 days, depending on ambient conditions too.

Once dried, the grains can be stored or ground for your brewday. The corn flavor (or wheat, if malting wheat) is rich and almost like a corn-flake cereal, making it very elegant in your bourbon. Also, malted grains have been “gelatinized” naturally via the germination process, so you can go straight to your saccharification temperature in the mash tun, ie - no need for a high temperature gelatinization step in your process.

Only caveat here is the kernal must be whole, not cracked in order to malt it. So, feed store cracked corn won’t work to malt. But, if you can go to the CO-OP, you can get whole corn by the bushel … for less! There is some advantage to living in “the harvest belt”. :ebiggrin:
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I have great access to malted barley. Not so much on the corn. As I get closer to retirement this looks more and more interesting, just need time and space. Malted and wood smoked corn :think:
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Re: Adding grains to corn

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still_stirrin wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:37 am
Corn Cracker wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:33 am OP, you can get whole corn by the bushel … for less! There is some advantage to living in “the harvest belt”. :ebiggrin:
ss
I'm not far from a bunch of farm land, I'll keep an eye on the crops next year and stop in and ask. Maltin my own is I've thought about, just so much other knowledge to gain just distilling. I'll try it fall
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Re: Adding grains to corn

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Corn Cracker wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:33 am MG brand cracked corn from the feed store, it's the most uniform crack and cleanest corn I've found. I usually crush cracked corn in a Ninja blender to a heavy meal but this corn was cracked up perfect, I'd say 6 to 8 pieces per kernel.

Flaked corn at the hbs is $60 for 55 pounds, cracked $15 for 50 pounds. It's a couple extra hours to give it all the rest stops and such but i spend that 45 bucks on 6- row, rye, etc
Go to a feed store and get flaked corn, $11 or $12 for 50 lb. all comes from the same fields
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Re: Adding grains to corn

Post by higgins »

I've been using straight coarse ground cornmeal. We have a local Amish market that can order 50 lb bags for me for $20. Twice the price of feed corn, but a third the cost of flaked corn from the HB shop, and none of the hassle of grinding corn.

I will look for flaked corn at the local farmers coop. That will save me half the cost if they have it, and I imagine that it is pre-gelatinized so can be mashed at 148F with my other grains. I need to save wherever I can so that i can afford to make single malt. The ingredients for my next single malt, which should produce about 1 3/4 - 2 gallons at aging proof, cost me about $125.
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Re: Adding grains to corn

Post by Dancing4dan »

subbrew wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:43 am
Corn Cracker wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:33 am MG brand cracked corn from the feed store, it's the most uniform crack and cleanest corn I've found. I usually crush cracked corn in a Ninja blender to a heavy meal but this corn was cracked up perfect, I'd say 6 to 8 pieces per kernel.

Flaked corn at the hbs is $60 for 55 pounds, cracked $15 for 50 pounds. It's a couple extra hours to give it all the rest stops and such but i spend that 45 bucks on 6- row, rye, etc
Go to a feed store and get flaked corn, $11 or $12 for 50 lb. all comes from the same fields
Lol! If only I could get flaked corn for that price anywhere!
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Re: Adding grains to corn

Post by subbrew »

I am surprised. Alberta raises a lot of cattle and horses so I would have assumed feed corn, including flaked, would be easy to source from a farm and ranch type store. Not something I looked for when I was working in Airdrie but I did see farm and ranch type stores.
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Re: Adding grains to corn

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I asked about what we used to call steam crimped corn at the feed store, he replied it goes bad before i could sell it all so, he stopped carrying it
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Re: Adding grains to corn

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subbrew wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:45 pm I am surprised. Alberta raises a lot of cattle and horses so I would have assumed feed corn, including flaked, would be easy to source from a farm and ranch type store. Not something I looked for when I was working in Airdrie but I did see farm and ranch type stores.
Never see flaked corn in a farm store. Cracked corn is and goes for about $ 17 for 50 pounds. Flaked corn is another story. I have only been able to find it in brew supply stores at $ 110 for 50 pounds.

Maybe I need to spend some time and do some shopping around again. If anyone knows where they sell flaked corn in the Alberta feed stores would be good to know.
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Re: Adding grains to corn

Post by higgins »

We have an Amish country market about 25 miles from us (but everything is 15 or more) that sells bulk foods and such. They have coarse ground cornmeal for 40 cents a pound, so I asked them to order me a 50 lb bag. It was $20 / 50lb. I can buy a lot of this cornmeal for the price of a good corn grinder. I've also bought whole wheat and rye berries, and will pick up some rolled oats on my next visit.
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Re: Adding grains to corn

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Dancing4dan wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:28 am What type of corn did you use? Feed grade cracked corn takes a long time in heat to get soft enough for enzymes to work. I use flaked corn now but it is five times the $ here.
My local brew store recently referred to a bag of Bloody Butcher as “thirsty.” It made me giggle. Flaked it stupid expensive and I can’t find good flavors in the flaked corn options available to me. I’m all cornmeal all day. A baker friend can get the stuff for $20-25 per 50# bag and I don’t have to do anything but heat water, mix and hangout between enzymes injections. I mix in 5-10% malted specialty corn ground to meal 30 minutes before I add my GL saccharification enzyme. A little goes a long way for flavor. These posts are nudging me closer to trying some other grains. I am all corn or all rye.
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Re: Adding grains to corn

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Gonzo_distills wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 3:02 pm
Dancing4dan wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:28 am What type of corn did you use? Feed grade cracked corn takes a long time in heat to get soft enough for enzymes to work. I use flaked corn now but it is five times the $ here.
My local brew store recently referred to a bag of Bloody Butcher as “thirsty.” It made me giggle. Flaked it stupid expensive and I can’t find good flavors in the flaked corn options available to me. I’m all cornmeal all day. A baker friend can get the stuff for $20-25 per 50# bag and I don’t have to do anything but heat water, mix and hangout between enzymes injections. I mix in 5-10% malted specialty corn ground to meal 30 minutes before I add my GL saccharification enzyme. A little goes a long way for flavor. These posts are nudging me closer to trying some other grains. I am all corn or all rye.
I'm going to check on the big bags of corn meal in my area.

I tried the honey bear bourbon in tried and true and really liked it, that, somehow, led me to trying rye in my mash and It's getting interesting.

I'm ready to run my first fermintation of the UJSSM and get the 2nd gen started this evening, maybe early in the. Morning
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Re: Adding grains to corn

Post by n_plains_drifter »

Cracker, you using the spent grains from your first post above for Jessies, or did you start with new corn? I ran 12 gens averaging 80 l per. Not quite all grain, but pretty tasty none the less.

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Re: Adding grains to corn

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n_plains_drifter wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:14 pm Cracker, you using the spent grains from your first post above for Jessies, or did you start with new corn? I ran 12 gens averaging 80 l per. Not quite all grain, but pretty tasty none the less.

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UJ is all new cracked corn with enzymes, i have some big 14 gallon buckets and 1 is now dedicated to ujssm.
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Re: Adding grains to corn

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Corn Cracker wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:20 am
n_plains_drifter wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:14 pm
UJ is all new cracked corn with enzymes, i have some big 14 gallon buckets and 1 is now dedicated to ujssm.
I pulled 5 gallons of what I mashed in today and poured it over 5# of corn in a small beer fermenter so I could have some charged up to try ujssm. I have seen so many on here making it I decided to try it next round.
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Re: Adding grains to corn

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Corn Cracker wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:34 pm 9# crushed corn
1# flaked rye
1# rolled oats
½# honey malt
5 gallons of water
Used gluco and reg amylase enzymes for conversion.
We'll see how it turns out
It's been 2 months and it has come along nicely, although it's all but gone now, it's really smooth and sweet. I will be making it
again
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Re: Adding grains to corn

Post by fzbwfk9r »

re: steam crimped/flaked feed grains

my local suppliers can no longer source steamed grains. a few years ago, you could not buy whole grains from them.... everything was steamed

I think this was to ensure no one used it for seed

what a world we live in!!!

this fall, I'll be sourcing a variety of grains from local producers. I'll be carrying 5gal pails and $10 bills!
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Re: Adding grains to corn

Post by Corn Cracker »

I've got about 6oz of this left on the shelf, sampled it over the weekend and, wow, has it smoothed out. I can't find the peppery rye in it though. I have figured out my issue though. I need to make more of any given product so i can put some back to age. I reckon that's my next step in this journey, learning the aging aspect of this fine hobby.
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