Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

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Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Last year I found an absolutely wonderful bottle of all rye whiskey, 100% unmalted rye, aged on toasted American oak and I thought “I can do that.” After a fair amount of reading, I’m ready to make an all rye for the first time. Here I go....
.

Mashing (32 gallon ferment)

Ingredients
70 lb Meca Grade Rye, Unmalted. Ground twice at the lowest setting the store grinder would go. ( .15 )
4 oz active yeast
4 oz boiled yeast (nutrient)

+ 10 gallons of boiling water and 70 lb of grain. Grain was still dry on top. Cover and Insulate while I boil more water.

+ 10 gallons of boiling water and mix. Now it’s a heavy slurry. I added 100g of Ferm Solutions AHA-400 Alpha Amylase Enzyme and mixed. Cover and insulate while I boil more water.

+ 10 gallons of boiling water to a total of 32 gallons of ferment then mix. It now has a nice viscosity and it mixed up well. A little foam from mixing process but nothing like what I was expecting. Cover and insulate at 3:30 PM. Mix at 5:00 PM. Temp is 170ish.

6:30 PM add the wort chiller to start cooling. This stuff is so thick the wort chiller is only effective when I’m actively stirring things up. When I let it sit a few minutes, the output temp is not much warmer than the input temp. I have gotten quite the arm and shoulder workout, working the wort chiller up and down in the mash every once in a while.
32 gallons of warm sweet rye snot and grains
32 gallons of warm sweet rye snot and grains
10:30 PM and it has cooled to 105 F. Removed the wort chiller. I now have 32 gallons of sticky, gooey mash. I added 35 ml of Ferm Solutions GA-150 Glucoses Amylase Enzyme then covered and insulated the barrel. I let sit overnight.

9 AM and the mash is at 90 F. Iodine tested and I got a complete conversion. Tasted very thick and sweet. SG is 10 50. PH is 7. Still a 100% slime/gooey mash. I put the wort chiller in, gave things a little stir and went away for an hour. I came back to about 10 additional gallons of thick foam on top. Over the next hour, the foam reached the very top (23 gallons of foam) before I added five drops of defaming agent and stirred that into the foam to knock it down a few inches. It was at 85 F so I started preparing to pitch.
32 gal of ferment, 23 gal of foam.  Close.
32 gal of ferment, 23 gal of foam. Close.
At noon I added four ounces of boiled yeast, 4 oz of rehydrated bakers yeast and I gave it a good mix and covered it. The foam was 4” below the top. I will check every 30 minutes or so for a while to see if the foam gets better or worse with fermentation.

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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by TwoSheds »

Sounds interesting! I only have a couple all-grain runs under my belt but I'm curious about single-ingredient runs like this, as a learning tool if nothing else.

I'll be following along. Keep us posted.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by HDNB »

i think maybe it was already fermenting? it's the only thing i've seen build that much foam
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

HDNB wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:19 pm i think maybe it was already fermenting? it's the only thing i've seen build that much foam
23 hours into the ferment an no more signs of foaming trouble. No new foam since I pitched yeast, and what was there a day ago is now all but gone.

Either I got past the temp or other condition that caused things to foam in the first place, or a few drops of defoaming agent did the trick.

I guess I should add deforming agent to my standard ingredients for future rye ferments.

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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

The ferment appears to be done and it did not take long thanks to the enzymes doing their job. 36 hours after pitching, virtually no fermentation activity (bubble cap). It was another 12 hours before I could take some measurements.

FG is 10 14
PH is near 6
Temp around 85F

I was pretty casual/lax in my approach to this ferment and I can think of several potential reasons for the higher than expected FG, but that is a subject for a later day. I can get by with an ABV just under 5 for this batch. I went ahead and added a small dose of nutrients made for late stage ferments, in the event this will get me a little more activity.

This is going to sit a while in my ferment barrel before I can get to draining and squeezing this out. Hopefully I will have time this coming weekend.

Time to break out the thumper rig and get things ready for some steam stripping. I’ll be damned if I’m gonna scorch this batch.

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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by Wyododge »

Bookmarked this one Mr Otis. Truth be told, the arthritis in my hands and wrists is so bad these days I’m not sure I could work that goop as much as you did. Do I lose man points if the wife stirs my mash?

Really looking forward to how this works out. Thanks for taking the time to write this up!
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by Bushman »

I love my rye whiskey. I have only used malted rye will be interested in following the thread as well.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by Twisted Brick »

I'm a huge fan of rye, so will be watching closely, Otis. A couple of items to contribute:

When filling my 5gal barrel last year with a 17%-rye bourbon, my initial mashes (home-malted organic and amber ryes) were prohibitively thick enough to pull a readable OG. I subsequently switched to a stove-top glucan-rested rye mash that luckily solved the problem. I mention this because you may benefit from a similar mash regime if you continue this grain bill and seek a lower FG.

Secondly, here is a good look at a number of rye mash challenges on a commercial scale, with variables us homedistillers might not encounter or think about as problem-solving techniques. This thread seemed valuable to bookmark since one day soon I plan to mash a 4-rye (pale, amber, caramel and un-malted rye) grist.
Last edited by Twisted Brick on Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by The Baker »

Wyododge wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:28 pm Bookmarked this one Mr Otis. Truth be told, the arthritis in my hands and wrists is so bad these days I’m not sure I could work that goop as much as you did. Do I lose man points if the wife stirs my mash?

Your lady gets special points and so do you. Win Win

Really looking forward to how this works out. Thanks for taking the time to write this up!
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by dukethebeagle120 »

OtisT wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:10 pm The ferment appears to be done and it did not take long thanks to the enzymes doing their job. 36 hours after pitching, virtually no fermentation activity (bubble cap). It was another 12 hours before I could take some measurements.

FG is 10 14
PH is near 6
Temp around 85F

I was pretty casual/lax in my approach to this ferment and I can think of several potential reasons for the higher than expected FG, but that is a subject for a later day. I can get by with an ABV just under 5 for this batch. I went ahead and added a small dose of nutrients made for late stage ferments, in the event this will get me a little more activity.

This is going to sit a while in my ferment barrel before I can get to draining and squeezing this out. Hopefully I will have time this coming weekend.

Time to break out the thumper rig and get things ready for some steam stripping. I’ll be damned if I’m gonna scorch this batch.

Otis
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

Wyododge wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:28 pm Bookmarked this one Mr Otis. Truth be told, the arthritis in my hands and wrists is so bad these days I’m not sure I could work that goop as much as you did. Do I lose man points if the wife stirs my mash?

Really looking forward to how this works out. Thanks for taking the time to write this up!
Thanks for following Wyododge. There is no loss of man points at all in getting help. What you have there is an abundance of lady points that are worth far more than any man points. Treat her well.

I’ve got no lady to help me. I’m not looking forward to the squeezing things on my own so I offered to pay my young boy to help. Even with the offer of money, I got a “maybe” for an answer. Damn. i need to find me a lady friend like yours.

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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

Twisted Brick wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:32 pm I'm a huge fan of rye, so will be watching closely, Otis. A couple of items to contribute:

When filling my 5gal barrel last year with a 17%-rye bourbon, my initial mashes (home-malted organic and amber ryes) were prohibitively thick enough to pull a readable OG. I subsequently switched to a stove-top glucan-rested rye mash that luckily solved the problem. I mention this because you may benefit from a similar mash regime if you continue this grain bill and seek a lower FG.

Secondly, here is a good look at a number of rye mash challenges on a commercial scale, with variables us homedistillers might not encounter or think about as problem-solving techniques. This thread seemed valuable to bookmark since one day soon I plan to mash a 4-rye (pale, amber, caramel and un-malted rye) grist.
Thanks for the input Twisted. I’ll have to look into the glucan rest. I think that is the one where you start at 110f before going up to 190. Does that also improve viscosity, or is it just a conversion thing? More reading to do.

I got a few nuggets of info from that pro thread on 100% rye mashing. One was to consider the glucan rest for improved yield. :-) Thanks. Otis.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by Ben »

I have been making malted rye (90%) whiskey this year, to date it is my favorite thing to come off the still.

Why the ultra fine grind? Does this make squeezing easier? (I ferment off the grain).
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

Ben wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 7:35 am I have been making malted rye (90%) whiskey this year, to date it is my favorite thing to come off the still.

Why the ultra fine grind? Does this make squeezing easier? (I ferment off the grain).
Rye is a small grain. I had to go to the lowest setting to ensure each seed was crushed.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by Twisted Brick »

OtisT wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:56 am I’ll have to look into the glucan rest. I think that is the one where you start at 110f before going up to 190. Does that also improve viscosity, or is it just a conversion thing? More reading to do.
Oops! I completely forgot you were working with raw rye. The glucan rest temp range (98F - 113F) is where the beta glucanase enzymes are active, breaking down the gums and making viscosity workable. But that is for malted rye (wheat and oats).

Here's how a known distillery handles his raw rye mashes, but with enzymes.
Silk City Distillers wrote: Posted January 17, 2018
We do a 100% unmalted rye, step mash. We rest in both beta-glucan and proteinase ranges with appropriate enzymes to take care of glucans and compensate for the fact that we're using raw grain. I find a finer mill on the raw rye increases the effectiveness of the rests and enzymes. Rough crack tends to reduce effectiveness. We dumped our first 1yo barrels of it a few weeks back, it's amazing. Northeast Ryes are going to be a force to be reckoned with in a couple years.

Pay close attention to your temp and pH for each step of the process. The tighter the ranges you can maintain, and the more diligently you stick to the process, the easier it gets. I can not stress this enough. Each step has an ideal temperature and pH. There is a ton of brewing literature on step mashing, this all applies.

Caveat, we're setup to run on-grain start to finish, we don't attempt to lauter anything.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by NormandieStill »

You can get bottled enzymes to deal with beta-glucans. I've not tried them yet, but I do intend to place an order.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by erykroom »

Even with beta glucans filtering the worth from rye grain/flour is tricky and time consuming. The best bet is distilling on grain. Be it with steam or with a thumper setup or baine marie.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by dukethebeagle120 »

Sticky or not,a thumper will not have a problem.
I've done thick oatmeal consistency without a problem
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by HDNB »

NormandieStill wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:47 pm You can get bottled enzymes to deal with beta-glucans. I've not tried them yet, but I do intend to place an order.
i've used SEBflo. helps a bit but not what you would call a cure for the slime.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

Step Mash
I appreciate all the suggestions, links and talk about step mashing. It’s fascinating stuff that I will need to learn more about. One issue I have with considering a step mash next time I do this is that from all I have read so far, folks are stepping up temperature for each rest. I’m not set up for cooking my mash to increase its temp (yet), so I am stuck with stepping down in temp.

I made no effort to adjust the PH, and some of those step mash w/enzyme thread conversations I read really stressed the need to get the PH right for good results. I will have to look into this as a possible way to improve my conversion.

With my current step down process I only lost 1.3% ABV potential, and I can make up for that with a little bigger batch next time. That will have to do for me until I learn some new tricks or get some more equipment.

If anyone knows of a good process for stepping down in temps with enzymes, please do point me to it.

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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by Twisted Brick »

dukethebeagle120 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:31 am Sticky or not,a thumper will not have a problem.
I've done thick oatmeal consistency without a problem
Are you referring to a steam rig for mashing rye or distilling on grain with a thumper?

The problem I had running my usual dirty bourbon wash wasn't discovered until 18mo's later where there were unmistakeable yeast notes in my otherwise carefully-handled spirit. Now I clear all of my squeezed ferments and won't use my thumper to distill unless its with cleared wash. Others may not have a taste sensitivity and can ignore this, but I've read of others who like me, would not be happy with a yeast-tainted rye, especially aged.

The main reason I built my steam rig was to conduct stepped rye mashes.

Otis, as far as I know, a stepped glucan rest needs to be mashed bottom up. If you aren't equipped to do a partial simultaneous stepped mash, you might consider a decoction mash, adding hot water to a grain-heavy mash, or a combination of all three. I would imagine stepping only half of your rye grist would be more better than stepping none.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by Wyododge »

OtisT wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:28 pm
If anyone knows of a good process for stepping down in temps with enzymes, please do point me to it.

Otis
Mr. Otis. I have read in here somewhere that stepping down is an option. I don’t believe there was any discussion of ph though. One of the problems with reading 5000 posts (and having a mushy old brain) is that I can’t remember where I read it. It’s not in my bookmarks, but I will see if I can find it for you.

Edit - posted same time as TW
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

Wyododge,
I have that same old man mushy brain thing going on. I also recall one post a long time back that mentioned a step down mash process, but it was not supported or backed up with anything that gave me confidence it was better than what I’m doing now. No worries if you can’t find that post and I appreciate the effort.

Twisted,
I think you just decided what my next therapy sessions will cover. (therapy = making shit). I think I now need a steam head that fits a 55 gallon barrel fermentor. That should be easy enough to make but I would want to know how much steam escapes when mashing. I suspect probably more steam would escape from a thick mash vs a thin one and that the answer also depends on how hard you run it. I mainly want to know if is feasible to run one indoors and if I did, how badly will it steam up the room I do it in.

Erykroom,
The one time I stripped with grains in my thumper I ended up with hard biscuits in there that were a PITA to break apart and get out. My intention is to drain and squeeze this mash, let it settle out, then siphon off the clear for a steam strip before a nice and slow pot still spirit run. Then the hard part begins.

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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by Twisted Brick »

OtisT wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:51 pm
Twisted,
I think you just decided what my next therapy sessions will cover. (therapy = making shit). I think I now need a steam head that fits a 55 gallon barrel fermentor. That should be easy enough to make but I would want to know how much steam escapes when mashing. I suspect probably more steam would escape from a thick mash vs a thin one and that the answer also depends on how hard you run it. I mainly want to know if is feasible to run one indoors and if I did, how badly will it steam up the room I do it in.

Otis
Sorry, I'm worthless to answer your questions since I have yet to steam step-mash a batch of rye although I have 40lbs of home-malted rye resting in various freezers. I think you just convinced me to get off my duff and do it as soon as I'm done with this all-too-delayed corn likker project for my neighbor.

These are only guesses, but I would suspect a 55-gal steam mash is gonna be a different animal than a 20-gal steam mash. In either volume, one would need to establish the correct temp for strike water, dough-in to get ~100F and see what viscosity ensues. The first question is how much water-to-grain to start with. I have read of several steam-riggers who start their steam before doughing in to keep their stream-injectors from clogging. This might work with 95F strike water that slowly raises the mash temp to say 114F, hopefully over the course of 20-30min. From there one could go full blast on the boiler to bring the mash up to whatever temp you want. I do think it will be beneficial to test your process on a 5-10gal scale before tackling 55gal.

I'll let you know what I come up with but there's gotta be some experts out there who can share their experiences first.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by dukethebeagle120 »

Twisted Brick wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:06 pm
dukethebeagle120 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:31 am Sticky or not,a thumper will not have a problem.
I've done thick oatmeal consistency without a problem
Are you referring to a steam rig for mashing rye or distilling on grain with a thumper?

The problem I had running my usual dirty bourbon wash wasn't discovered until 18mo's later where there were unmistakeable yeast notes in my otherwise carefully-handled spirit. Now I clear all of my squeezed ferments and won't use my thumper to distill unless its with cleared wash. Others may not have a taste sensitivity and can ignore this, but I've read of others who like me, would not be happy with a yeast-tainted rye, especially aged.

The main reason I built my steam rig was to conduct stepped rye mashes.

Otis, as far as I know, a stepped glucan rest needs to be mashed bottom up. If you aren't equipped to do a partial simultaneous stepped mash, you might consider a decoction mash, adding hot water to a grain-heavy mash, or a combination of all three. I would imagine stepping only half of your rye grist would be more better than stepping none.
I don't have a problem with that.
I've been using a wild yeast that I propogated
I've been getting 7 to 8 ,,% abv. From it
It ferments in the 68 to 72 degree f range.
It's not super grainy flavored.
I like it.
I am not big on heavy grain flavored spirits.
So this works well for me.
Got nice bready notes
But yeah I am referring to a thumper strip
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by Ben »

No need to step down mash temps. You will denature the enzymes when you go above their threshold. So going down in temp will require adding enzymes that are already there. Try this:

1: Beta Glucanase: 15-30 mins @110-115
2: (optional, but wise since you are working with unmodified grains) Protein rest: raise to ≈130, rest 15-30
3: Raise to Saccharification at 144-148, add enzymes, 30-90 mins (starch test dictates). Rye gel temp is 135- 158, so this is dual purpose.
4: Chill asap, pitch.

I think decoction would be a good way to go for your temp steps, but if you math it out you can start with a very thick mash and add in boiling water to hit each temp step.

If you can get to your LHBS, get some rice hulls. They will change your life when it comes to post processing this stuff. Try 1 oz per 3 lbs of grain.

Your rye is much finer than mine. The standard 0.030 crush is plenty to break mine up; turning them to flour will lead to pain, you don't need a flour to get good conversion, just a good crack and fracture.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

I managed to get 2/3 of my ferment squeezed this weekend. It was smelling pretty stinky and I’m not sure if that stink is a rye thing, or just a rye sitting to long thing?

Right now I have 16 gallons of slimy juice in four carboys starting to settle and about 12 gallons of grains yet to squeeze. It may be a few more days before I can finish this off.

24 hours of settling in the carboys and there is only a fraction of an inch of clear liquid. With other grain bills I normally see the most settling of a fresh squeezed mash up front in the first day and it only gets slower from there. So I have to ask for help here. Does rye juice settle out? If so, how long does it take for yours to settle and what kind of clear to cloudy do you see after that time?

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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by Ben »

I let mine ferment for about 4 weeks and just pour it off, no problems (fermenting off grain). Try blooming some gelatin and adding it to the fermenters, that should help pull the cloudiness out of solution.

What is the smell you are experiencing? Is it sour, vomit, vegetal etc?
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by 8Ball »

OtisT wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:28 pm Step Mash
I appreciate all the suggestions, links and talk about step mashing. It’s fascinating stuff that I will need to learn more about. One issue I have with considering a step mash next time I do this is that from all I have read so far, folks are stepping up temperature for each rest. I’m not set up for cooking my mash to increase its temp (yet), so I am stuck with stepping down in temp.

I made no effort to adjust the PH, and some of those step mash w/enzyme thread conversations I read really stressed the need to get the PH right for good results. I will have to look into this as a possible way to improve my conversion.

With my current step down process I only lost 1.3% ABV potential, and I can make up for that with a little bigger batch next time. That will have to do for me until I learn some new tricks or get some more equipment.

If anyone knows of a good process for stepping down in temps with enzymes, please do point me to it.

Otis
Otis, here is a thread that details how I do my step mashes with malted grains.

viewtopic.php?f=102&t=81154

Some notes on actual temps & pH during the step mash. It may give you some added insight with your rye journey.
Last edited by 8Ball on Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by Twisted Brick »

8Ball wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:18 am
Otis, here is a thread that details how I do my step mashes with malted grains. Some notes on actual temps & pH during the step mash. It may give you some added insight with your rye journey.
8Ball, is it your Banjo Pickin' Mint Julep thread? That's a good'n.

Otis, can you share the distillery and rye expression you had that was so yummy?
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