Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

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OtisT
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

I’m not sure why I had no puke/foam issues at full power. I was expecting a puke . I almost put some deforming agent in the thumper in advance, but thankfully decided to wait and see before doing that.

One thing I had going for me was that the thumper was only half full, so plenty of head space. I also got a descent conversion and ferment as a result of the really long rest.

I will know later if foaming has anything to do with clear beer vs dirty because I will be stripping the sediment next. It will be a few more days before I get to that.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

I stripped the sediment last night and it did not foam or puke either. Even more wash in the thumper this time. The volume I stripped was 9 gallons and I pulled 4 gallons of about 22-24% low wines. I did not use my customary paper filter when collecting and these low wines have a lot more oil in them than the clear beer did, so I made a bit of an oily mess in my glass.

Now I need to find a free day when I can plan a nice and slow spirit run. Maybe next weekend.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by Twisted Brick »

Wow, Otis. Your yield was very good. I suspect your backset will have retained a bit of oil as well.

Thanks for the update.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

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Twisted Brick wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 7:25 am Wow, Otis. Your yield was very good. I suspect your backset will have retained a bit of oil as well.

Thanks for the update.
Ya, I am pretty sure my initial conversion was not complete because my measures made me think I only had 6% in my ferment. I think it did a lot of converting sitting for weeks because based on my actual yield of low wines, the ABV of my ferment was actually around 10.5%.

The backset from my fist strip did not appear overly oily to me. I collected it from the first clear beer strip. It was a little thin too, color wise, but not surprising for a steam strip where I end up with more backset than the amount of beer I started with. It is still plenty acidic.
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Ben
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by Ben »

I have noticed high apparent alcohol off takes as well.
still_stirrin wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:48 am bear in mind that the glucans in the wort can add “density error” because of the high viscosity. Regardless, the product should turn out nice.
(viewtopic.php?f=11&t=85799)

I have stumbled around looking for details on this for a while, haven't come to any hard conclusions. Maybe SS will be along to 'splain it.
:)
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

Ben, Since you brought up having a similar experience with a surprisingly high abv, I had to go and look it up. I found that Rye contains a lot more sugar potential than wheat or barley. Guess that is why I got about 10% ABV from 2 lb of grain per gallon. I think I’ll use a little less lb/gallon next batch.

I found this on the internets:
“Wheat is higher in calories, protein, and fats, while rye contains more carbohydrates, including dietary fiber. Rye is also more diverse in vitamins, containing vitamins of the B group, as well as vitamin A, vitamin E, and vitamin K. Wheat, on the other hand, is richer in almost all minerals.”

That latter part may be useful if ever considering adding nutrients to an all rye ferment. I’ll have to read now about the minerals yeast like. More reading.....
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by Twisted Brick »

Otis, I know this is your rye thread but I had to thank you again for your C02 generator idea. I just looked in my box of brewing stuff and pulled out an old beer siphon and a couple of stoppers. Done. I went with 1.5l of 1.05 wash since my 13gal conical only has 6gal (all corn) in it. The other 6gal (clear) went in a carboy. This is gonna be SOP from now on.
.
C02 Generator.jpg
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

I completed the clear beer spirit run this weekend.

I experienced something strange on this run that I don’t yet understand. None of the distinct smell I identify with tails appeared during the run at all. I know I finished the run through tails by the calculated collection volume, collection rate drop, vapor temp, as well as taste. The taste was even different, thought it still got bitter as I went into tails, which is how I made my tails cut.

Being my first all rye whiskey I don’t know yet if the lack of tails smell is normal for this grain, or perhaps the clearing of the bleer is the reason, or possibly that this is all unmalted? I’ll be able to rule out clear vs dirty beer soon, when I run the low wines that came from the ferment’s sediment.

Tails aside, I don’t recall any strong, unique smells from this run. Almost a lack of strong or unique smells compared to other spirits I make. I guess there is a possibility my nose is not working well now.

The distinct and strong sour smell present since the ferment came through just a bit in the collection. The sour smell seems light early in the collection and stronger as I move towards tails. I’ve had this light sour smell before, and it usually disappear after a day of airing and that usually brings out some underlying grain smell when it is gone.

Overall I get a very strong grassy/fresh grain smell.
I am also getting lots sweet/fruits notes in the late heads/early hearts.
I can taste a bit of spice on the tail end of each sip, more so from jars at the end of the collection.

The combined cut is smooth. A very distinct vegetative and grassy/grainy smell and flavor with a spicy zing toward the end. The zing feeling is across the middle of my tongue, and it lingers just in the middle of the middle (not the sides of my tongue). For me, heads are felt most at the tip of my tongue. Tails, that bitter taste is in the back center. This taste is smack dab in the middle only. I looked up what tastes are sensed in different places on the tongue. That middle/middle section is Umami, with Sour on each side. I would say this has both Umami and Sour but the Umami lingers much longer.

This is definitely different than any other AG I have made.

Otis
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

I finished the second spirit run. 4 gal of low wines from the dirty wash, and 3 liters of feints from the first spirit run.

Again, the tails don’t smell like tails. I wonder if malted rye gives that familiar tails smell?
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by EricTheRed »

OtisT wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 10:24 pm I finished the second spirit run. 4 gal of low wines from the dirty wash, and 3 liters of feints from the first spirit run.

Again, the tails don’t smell like tails. I wonder if malted rye gives that familiar tails smell?
OtisT, i found the same on my rye. More sweetwater than tails
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

EricTheRed wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 3:51 am
OtisT wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 10:24 pm I finished the second spirit run. 4 gal of low wines from the dirty wash, and 3 liters of feints from the first spirit run.

Again, the tails don’t smell like tails. I wonder if malted rye gives that familiar tails smell?
OtisT, i found the same on my rye. More sweetwater than tails
Thanks for the info Eric. Even with all the reading I did in advance of doing this batch, this aspect of processing rye surprised me.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

I made cuts on both batches last night. As with most AGs I have made, the cut was really close to 50% (+/-5%) of the total volume I collected. I’m keeping roughly one gallon per batch.

I split this ferment into two batches, separating the clear beer run from the sediment only run. These two batches do taste and smell differently. Because rye is new to me I can’t say one tastes/smells better or worse than the other. I think I’ll let more time pass before I make any judgement in this.

There are some really strong and unique tastes in the all rye that were new to me. Not bad, just different. It is kind of like learning cuts all over again, wondering to my self if these new tastes are normal for rye or possibly some strong ester that was formed. I guess I won’t know what normal is until I do another all rye.

In previous posts I mentioned that I did not smell tails. I tasted my way through the cuts. With the first batch made from clear beer, I could taste the bad and bitter tails come in the usual place and I made my cut there. It did not taste exactly the same and the bitter was not as intense as other spirits, but the bitterness being there was all I needed to rule it out. The second batch made from dirty beer had no bitterness before the cloudy jar. (I did not taste the cloudy jar.) These jars leading up to the oil smelled of sweet water, but it had no bad tastes and no bitterness. It was mostly tasteless, which is weird because there were some strong tastes in the prior batch leading up to tails. I ended up taking everything before the cloudy jar. Mixing it all together I could still smell the sweet water and was thinking maybe I made a bad mistake (remembering my past experiments with sweet water collected well past tails were a bust.). I was pleasantly surprised this morning when the sweet water smell has dissipated already from the spirit.

For these batches I toasted up some American White Oak and Oregon Oak, both seasoned 2 or 3 years. 375F convection, some for 30 and some for 40 minutes.
Batch 1 - Clear Beer
Batch 1 - Clear Beer
Batch 2 - Dirty Beer
Batch 2 - Dirty Beer
Now it time to wait. I would like to make another larger batch of all rye in the future so I can fill a badmo, but I think I’ll wait to see how these batches are shaping up before embarking on another all rye. For now, I’m just happy to have made it this far with my first all rye.

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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by bitter »

That is going to be tasty!!!!!!! Rye is so much a PITA to mash so slimy!
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by Twisted Brick »

Thanks for the write up, Otis. It is good to learn of your differing results between spirit runs made with clear vs cloudy beer. Looking forward to your assessments down the line.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

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Twisted Brick wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:32 pm I'm a huge fan of rye, so will be watching closely, Otis. A couple of items to contribute:

When filling my 5gal barrel last year with a 17%-rye bourbon, my initial mashes (home-malted organic and amber ryes) were prohibitively thick enough to pull a readable OG. I subsequently switched to a stove-top glucan-rested rye mash that luckily solved the problem. I mention this because you may benefit from a similar mash regime if you continue this grain bill and seek a lower FG.
TB. If a person were using a malted rye, the step mash with the glucan rest is done without added enzymes, correct?
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by Deplorable »

OtisT wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:19 am
Twisted Brick wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:32 pm I'm a huge fan of rye, so will be watching closely, Otis. A couple of items to contribute:

When filling my 5gal barrel last year with a 17%-rye bourbon, my initial mashes (home-malted organic and amber ryes) were prohibitively thick enough to pull a readable OG. I subsequently switched to a stove-top glucan-rested rye mash that luckily solved the problem. I mention this because you may benefit from a similar mash regime if you continue this grain bill and seek a lower FG.
TB. If a person were using a malted rye, the step mash with the glucan rest is done without added enzymes, correct?
Correct. I do mine on the stove top.
I mill the malted rye and add it to the cool water and stir it as it comes to temperature. Once it comes to 110F I kill the heat and wrap the pot up in reflectix and let it rest undisturbed for 30 to 45 minutes.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

Thanks Deplorable.
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Re: Unmalted All Rye Whiskey

Post by Twisted Brick »

Yes. During this rest there are two enzymes at work at their respective optimum temperatures - peptidase (113°-128°) and proteinase (131°-138°), collectively known as proteolytic enzymes. These are different than the diastatic enzymes responsible for the standard conversion in our main mash at higher temps (I like 140°-147°).

The beer guys say that proteolytic enzymes work slightly better in a thicker mash so adjust rest strike water accordingly. Some folks think of this as a protein rest because a protein rest's temps overlap (113°-138°), but I've read the beer scientists report not much protein degradation is occurring during this rest (to avoid haze) because the protein levels have largely been reduced by maltsters.
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