High Temp Alpha and Full Conversion

[fzbwfk9r]

as I read and read <wiping the blood from my eyes> I come across information/statements that often make me scratch my balding head

one of these came up lately, and I've noticed it more than once.

When dealing with enzymes, especially high temp Alpha, the consensus is to have temps not above 190F but close to it.

What I question though, is members who say after the HT Alpha, they do an iodine test and "Get Full Conversion"

this begs the following questions:
1) full conversion of what?
2) IF HT Alpha is meant to be used as a liquifier, (and from my reading, does NOT provide any saccharification) then how can anything be "Converted"?
3) IF HT Alpha does indeed provide them "Full Conversion", why bother with the low temp Gluco or Beta? Full conversion means just that and there'd be nothing left to convert

Has anyone who has used HT Alpha, and gotten "Full Conversion", tried to just ferment from there?

[NormandieStill]

1. Starch
2. Alpha-amylase will break up starch molecules but not all the way down to fully fermentable sugars.
3. Gluco-amylase will take some of those long chain "unfermentable" sugars and break them down further so that your yeast can eat them and piss out alcohol.

[Lights Out]

your yeast can eat them and piss out alcohol.

The true good guys of this whole endeavour.

[fzbwfk9r]

So Alpha breaks starch to complex non-fermentable sugars and then the Beta or Gluco breaks them down further to fermentable simple sugars

I got that right?

[NormandieStill]

More or less. The alpha will create some simple sugars. But you need gluco to finish the job. The standard mash in temperature for distillers beer is a little lower than for drinking beer in order to favour the production of simple sugars.

[fzbwfk9r]

Awesome
thanks NormandieStill

it is all coming clear now!

[boxarain]

If I add High Temp Alpha mashing at 155f and add Beta, then wait til next morning, will Beta work "after" Alpha? I have learned that you would use traditional Beta at lower temps on the way UP to higher temp Alpha. Does it work in reverse too?

[HDNB]

this will maybe help https://www.enzymeinnovation.com/high-t ... uefaction/

[howie]

If I add High Temp Alpha mashing at 155f and add Beta, then wait til next morning, will Beta work "after" Alpha? I have learned that you would use traditional Beta at lower temps on the way UP to higher temp Alpha. Does it work in reverse too?

i'm a enzyme novice.
but why would you add gluco first at a lower temp that would possibly be denatured at the higher alpha temp (85-95C)?
i thought the method of enzymes (esp corn & rye) would be to use the high temp alpha at 90C (to maximize starch extraction and break some of chains), then bring it down to the gluco temp of 65-70c to finish the job off.
i thought it depended on the grains you are using, their gel temps and the temp & PH of the particular enzyme as well.

[Ben]

You don't add the low temp enzyme first. First step is heat to 180-190, add high temp enzyme, stir, let sit for 2-3 hours. Then you drop down to something below 155, 145 is better. Then add your malt or second enzyme dose. You only take corn to 180-190, most of your grains shouldn't go above 162. The high temp enzymes big advantage is making the corn workable, without an enzyme it turns to polenta and is a real pain. High temp also improves speed of the process, it isn't exclusively necessary but it's real nice.

The alpha enzymes break long chain starches at random links. This gives you some fermentable and unfermentable sugars, leaving residual sweetness which is great for beer. We don't have use for sugars in our beer, we are after maximum fermentability. You target the beta range, which is most active in 140-149 temp area and denatures around 160f. Beta breaks off the end of the starch chain, so you end up with mostly fermentable sugars.

[Twisted Brick]

i'm a enzyme novice.

Maybe these will help. Might take a while to read through (there's 8-10 pages of HD 'enzymes' threads listed) but at least you'll get distillers' perspectives vs what brewers do.

[howie]

i'm a enzyme novice.

Maybe these will help. Might take a while to read through (there's 8-10 pages of HD 'enzymes' threads listed) but at least you'll get distillers' perspectives vs what brewers do.

thanks mr brick, i think i've read all them (and lots more)
i have been using enzymes for a while now and the reason i put 'novice' was that boxarains views on enzymes contradicted the newbie knowledge i have gleaned about enzymes from here and other forums.
the enzymes i use in australia are re-branded, but are made by Novozymes in europe.
i have downloaded their product specs, including activity/temp graphs & PH/activity graphs and their instructions.
the Novozymes also have a brewing handbook which, after the company blurb, has some good info, which can get as complicated as you want
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... ThgIb4Swqs

[Twisted Brick]

Informative handbook, howie. Thanks for sharing.

[Skipper1953]

This may be repeating some of what you have already read, but I'll go ahead anyway.
I use steam heat when mashing corn. I add some of both enzymes when I have the corn and water mixed in my mash tun. This allows the enzymes to do their thing while the mash is warming up. As a result, the mash never gets really stiff and difficult to stir. Both early additions are ultimately sacrificed as the mash temperature exceeds the denaturing point. After I've cooked the bejeezus out of the mash at over 200°f for an hour or so, I allow the mash to cool to about 180°f before adding the rest of the hi-temp enzyme. I stir every 10 or 15 minutes for at least an hour or until I think the Hi-temp enzyme has done its job. When the temp has been reduced to the appropriate temp for the addition of the Glucoamylase. As the temperature continues to drop to yeast pitching temperature, I stir periodically. Just before pitching yeast, I stir to incorporate as much air/oxygen into the mash as possible.
The enzymes I use are pictured below. The last time I used them was probably February, 2022. They are at least 6 years old. They are kept in my refrigerator (crisper drawer). They still work incredibly well. I ferment on the grain which allows the enzymes to continue doing their thing.

[howie]

i usually just add the HT to corn at 50C on the way up to 90C (as per manufacturer)
i just add HT to rye after the glucan rest (35C) has finished on the way up to 90C (as per professional rye distillers method)
neither mash ever gets viscous.
i don't think distillers doing 3000L rye mash would use glucan on the way up (imagine the cost ), but at hobby level & 0.2ml/litre, it's not prohibitive i suppose.
skipper- just a thought, why do you take your mash just above the working temp of the HT enzyme and denature it?
wouldn't it be better to mash the corn in the higher part of the HT 176F-196F range as per sebstars specs?

[Skipper1953]

I take my corn mash all the way to a boil because... it's corn. Yes, it denatures both of the enzymes. The small amount of the enzymes I put in early on is only a fraction (20% - 25%) of the total I will need. That total will have been calculate as soon as I decided how many lbs. corn I was going to be mashing. I don't use any more enzyme per mash than I would if I had done it as per Sebstars specs. In fact, I sometimes use less. It is amazing how little of that stuff you can use to make a big difference in conversion efficiency. I add the malted grains and the remaining glucoamylase when the temperature has gone down to the appropriate level.
While I may color outside the lines a bit, it works well for me. Y'all have to do what you're comfortable with.