uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

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Shine_Dad
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Re: distillation

Post by Shine_Dad »

Uncle Jesse wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:09 am i do single runs through a fractionating column, which is why i can get over 80% on a single run. i didn't make this point clearly enough, but if you single pot distill, your product will not come off impressively strong in proof and you'll need to save up low wines for a 2nd run. i've done this before and i like it, but it's more time consuming.

i use a ten gallon still so i save up 10 gallons of low wines over 3-4 runs and then run them. it takes a long time but you get a lot of product. the most i ever got out of one 10 gallon run was almost 3 gallons of spirit.

i try to get 8-10% in my mash...the book says go for 15%. i don't measure all that closely, but in this case the higher you can go the better up to about 15%.
Question... I figured this would probably be a question with numerous opinions..

Above, Jesse says he saves up 10 gallons of low wines over 3-4 runs to produce a spirit run that yields somewhere close to 3 gallons.

If four runs produces ten gallons of low wines, thats 2.5 gallons of low wines being kept per run of Low Wines?

So when we go to run our first 10 gallon mash here in about a week... we're talking about dumping a little fores, and then collecting heads / hearts / tails (low wines)....

So to get to the question directly: How much in total should we expect to collect ( in regards to how many quart or pint jars should I have on hand ) out of a single 10 gallon mash? In total? I would 'think' that a rinse and repeat recipe like this, someone has figured out that on average, starting from the beginning to getting into the low wines, 20-40%, would know by now how much a single 10 gallon mash is going to produce?

I'm not asking what I can expect to keep as far as the 'white dog' straight from the still whiskey, or how many tails i should carry over, etc., I'm just curious from a 'yield' standpoint, and as a way to get an idea of the time/process, how much you would collect in average from start to finish on 10 gallons of mash?

We'll be checking periodically with a hydrometer / taste, etc. But i'm trying to prepare my self as much as I can for what I should expect. We're running on propane ( regulating heat seems to be tricky/weird...we're working on that ), 10 gallon keg into a 1/3rd keg thumper into a traditional condenser (worm box?)

We did a test run water/vinegar of the entire system this week. Pump cycling water up from the bottom thru the condenser, still/thumper/condenser all worked, no leaks, and hit 210, hit the thumper, got back up to temp and started producing water/vinegar. It was very exciting... my parents next door, my brother and wife and I all sat outside drinking watching the still run and it was refreshing that everything worked as designed/planned on the first test. I have plans with the kiddos/wife for this weekend so we're preparing to start a mash next Monday to run next Saturday for the first time.

This wound up being a much larger post than I had intended... appreciate anyone who takes the time to read it and provide feedback.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by subbrew »

A little confused as you ask about how many jars when you run the mash. (It is a wash since no grains are mashed). For the stripping run, when you run the wash, you will get about 2.5 gallon as stated. You really don't need jars other than a small one for fores and then something to hold the rest of the 2.5 gallons. You are not making any cuts on the stripping run. I personally use 1/2 gal jars and collect 6 cups at a time just so I can watch the abv fall with each jar and record times just for learning purposes. I use two of them, swapping out, and after recording ABV dump them in a spare keg.

For the spirit run I do 300 ml per jar, which is smaller than most. I have 48 jars. Others would collect closer to 600 ml per jar and only do half as many. Because I am still learning I like a lot of jars so I can see the changes over the run. And I happened to have a few cases of pint jars so I used them. If I had to buy new jars I probably would have went with quarts and used less. Even at 48 I usually get a quart or three of nasty tails that I end up putting in 1/2 gal jars, let them air and then add to my feints jar. I run down to 20% at the spout just to collect feints which I will eventually run in a reflux column.
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Re: distillation

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Shine_Dad wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:03 pm I have plans with the kiddos/wife for this weekend so we're preparing to start a mash next Monday to run next Saturday for the first time.

This wound up being a much larger post than I had intended... appreciate anyone who takes the time to read it and provide feedback.
Running that soon after fermentation completes you run the risk of scorching some yeast. I let mine go a week to 10 days. In the winter I cold crash the last couple of days. And then siphon off to a carboy and let it rest another week and usually still get a 1/4 to 1/2 inch of sediment at the bottom of the carboy. (less if I have cold crashed)
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Re: Uncle Jesse’s Simple Sour Mash method

Post by still_stirrin »

Shine_Dad wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:03 pm… If four runs produces ten gallons of low wines, thats 2.5 gallons of low wines being kept per run of Low Wines?
Yep! Your “math skills” are sharp!

But, 2.5 gallons would be “the average” collection (each) from the 4 runs. So, may have more, some a little less depending on how successfully the wash was fermented. Remember, it’s the distilled collection from the alcohol “potential” of each ferment and there likely will ALWAYS be a little variation between batches.
Shine_Dad wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:03 pm… How much in total should we expect to collect ( in regards to how many quart or pint jars should I have on hand ) out of a single 10 gallon mash? In total?
OK, so I’m going to give you some “analysis” for how to predict what to expect in the collection jar(s).

First, suppose you have a 10 gallon sugar wash that you’d like to distill. And assume the original (specific) gravity was measured at OG=1.074.

Then, because you’ve paid attention to the (Tried & True) recipe and controlled the fermentation process and properly aerated (oxygenated) the wash prior to pitching the yeast, and as a result the wash final (specific) gravity was measured at 1.000.

Your “potential” alcohol %ABV would be: 1.074 - 1.000 = 0.074 and that multiplied by the factor (129) is 0.074 x 129 = 9.55%ABV.

Since your initial volume of wash was 10 gallons, you could expect to have 10 x 9.55% = 0.96 gallons of low wines, at a “theoretical” 100%ABV purity, which of course is NOT possible.

But, if you use a potstill to distill, you could collect an average purity of 30%ABV, with the “proof at the spout” potentially being as high as 110 to 140 proof, depending on how you run the still. If you use a reflux column (like Uncle Jesse) you could expect to collect the average spirit as high as 80 to 90%ABV (160 to 180 proof).

If you collected (using your potstill) the average low wines at 30%ABV (the whole collection averaged in a single vessel), then your potential alcohol would be: 0.96 gallons / 30%ABV = 3.2 gallons of low wines! Note that this is roughly 1/3 of the volume of the initial ferment, hence the multiple recommendations by the members to ferment 3 times the volume of wash you need to produce a boiler charge of low wines for the spirit run.

If, on the other hand, you distilled your wash using a reflux still and the average collection was 80%ABV, you could expect your collection to be: 0.96 / 80%ABV = 1.2 gallons. Less collected spirit, but at a higher purity.

Shine_Dad wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:03 pm… I would 'think' that a rinse and repeat recipe like this, someone has figured out that on average, starting from the beginning to getting into the low wines, 20-40%, would know by now how much a single 10 gallon mash is going to produce?
Well, I just showed YOU how to CALCULATE what to expect. I “think” you can take it from here, right?
Shine_Dad wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:03 pm… I'm not asking what I can expect to keep as far as the 'white dog' straight from the still whiskey, or how many tails i should carry over, etc., I'm just curious from a 'yield' standpoint, and as a way to get an idea of the time/process, how much you would collect in average from start to finish on 10 gallons of mash?
Go back and reread my math description until you understand it.
Shine_Dad wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:03 pm… But i'm trying to prepare my self as much as I can for what I should expect… appreciate anyone who takes the time to read it and provide feedback.
Measure the OG using a brewer’s hydrometer.
Measure the FG when the fermentation has attenuated (finished).
Calculate the “alcohol potential” of the wash.
Measure the volume of wash you transfer into the boiler.
Calculate the alcohol you expect to collect given the method of distillation (type of stillhead).
Assemble enough properly sized jars to collect the distillate into with a couple of extra jars on hand.
If collecting low wines, collect into a single vessel and collect the spirit until the vessel is 30%ABV (average) for the potstill stripped wash.

There you go…a “formula for success”.
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Re: distillation

Post by NZChris »

subbrew wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:31 pm Running that soon after fermentation completes you run the risk of scorching some yeast.
I strip mine as soon as it's dead, no cooling, no clearing, open the spigot and filter it through it's own grain bed, putting the first out back into the top of the fermenter. I've never seen any sign of scorching of anything.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Saltbush Bill »

NZChris wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:30 pm open the spigot and filter it through it's own grain bed
That wont happen with mine, don't you grind your grain or something ? That stuff sets hard on the bottom after a few gens even if you stir it up every time. Only way mine comes out is with a siphon hose or some sort of dipper.
Having said that Ive never had one scorch, and Ive run it fresh , 6 months old and every thing in between.

Running Rum wash out of the spigot works for me , just toss that first yeasty quart.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by NZChris »

Sometimes it takes longer than others, depends on the crack I suppose. After a first generation, (which uses frozen backset from the previous series), I seldom do single run worth of wash. The first strip worth is never up to distilling temperature before the second strip is drained and in the preheater, the last strip worth has plenty of time to filter through it's grain bed before it has to go into the preheater.

The backset from the first strip is enough for the next generation, which is usually bubbling before the still gets shut down after the third strip.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by NormandieStill »

NZChris wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:30 am Sometimes it takes longer than others, depends on the crack I suppose. After a first generation, (which uses frozen backset from the previous series), I seldom do single run worth of wash. The first strip worth is never up to distilling temperature before the second strip is drained and in the preheater, the last strip worth has plenty of time to filter through it's grain bed before it has to go into the preheater.

The backset from the first strip is enough for the next generation, which is usually bubbling before the still gets shut down after the third strip.
There's an efficiency there that never ceases to amaze me. I'm still hunting for a larger fermenter than can let me move to a more optimised process like this.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Yummyrum »

NormandieStill wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:13 am
NZChris wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:30 am Sometimes it takes longer than others, depends on the crack I suppose. After a first generation, (which uses frozen backset from the previous series), I seldom do single run worth of wash. The first strip worth is never up to distilling temperature before the second strip is drained and in the preheater, the last strip worth has plenty of time to filter through it's grain bed before it has to go into the preheater.

The backset from the first strip is enough for the next generation, which is usually bubbling before the still gets shut down after the third strip.
There's an efficiency there that never ceases to amaze me. I'm still hunting for a larger fermenter than can let me move to a more optimised process like this.
I can’t wait until I’m retired and can plan such events . ….. in the mean time …… :|

Seriously though , great practice Chris
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Re: Uncle Jesse’s Simple Sour Mash method

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still_stirrin wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:34 pm
Shine_Dad wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:03 pm… If four runs produces ten gallons of low wines, thats 2.5 gallons of low wines being kept per run of Low Wines?
Yep! Your “math skills” are sharp!

But, 2.5 gallons would be “the average” collection (each) from the 4 runs. So, may have more, some a little less depending on how successfully the wash was fermented. Remember, it’s the distilled collection from the alcohol “potential” of each ferment and there likely will ALWAYS be a little variation between batches.
Shine_Dad wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:03 pm… How much in total should we expect to collect ( in regards to how many quart or pint jars should I have on hand ) out of a single 10 gallon mash? In total?
OK, so I’m going to give you some “analysis” for how to predict what to expect in the collection jar(s).

First, suppose you have a 10 gallon sugar wash that you’d like to distill. And assume the original (specific) gravity was measured at OG=1.074.

Then, because you’ve paid attention to the (Tried & True) recipe and controlled the fermentation process and properly aerated (oxygenated) the wash prior to pitching the yeast, and as a result the wash final (specific) gravity was measured at 1.000.

Your “potential” alcohol %ABV would be: 1.074 - 1.000 = 0.074 and that multiplied by the factor (129) is 0.074 x 129 = 9.55%ABV.

Since your initial volume of wash was 10 gallons, you could expect to have 10 x 9.55% = 0.96 gallons of low wines, at a “theoretical” 100%ABV purity, which of course is NOT possible.

But, if you use a potstill to distill, you could collect an average purity of 30%ABV, with the “proof at the spout” potentially being as high as 110 to 140 proof, depending on how you run the still. If you use a reflux column (like Uncle Jesse) you could expect to collect the average spirit as high as 80 to 90%ABV (160 to 180 proof).

If you collected (using your potstill) the average low wines at 30%ABV (the whole collection averaged in a single vessel), then your potential alcohol would be: 0.96 gallons / 30%ABV = 3.2 gallons of low wines! Note that this is roughly 1/3 of the volume of the initial ferment, hence the multiple recommendations by the members to ferment 3 times the volume of wash you need to produce a boiler charge of low wines for the spirit run.

If, on the other hand, you distilled your wash using a reflux still and the average collection was 80%ABV, you could expect your collection to be: 0.96 / 80%ABV = 1.2 gallons. Less collected spirit, but at a higher purity.

Shine_Dad wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:03 pm… I would 'think' that a rinse and repeat recipe like this, someone has figured out that on average, starting from the beginning to getting into the low wines, 20-40%, would know by now how much a single 10 gallon mash is going to produce?
Well, I just showed YOU how to CALCULATE what to expect. I “think” you can take it from here, right?
Shine_Dad wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:03 pm… I'm not asking what I can expect to keep as far as the 'white dog' straight from the still whiskey, or how many tails i should carry over, etc., I'm just curious from a 'yield' standpoint, and as a way to get an idea of the time/process, how much you would collect in average from start to finish on 10 gallons of mash?
Go back and reread my math description until you understand it.
Shine_Dad wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:03 pm… But i'm trying to prepare my self as much as I can for what I should expect… appreciate anyone who takes the time to read it and provide feedback.
Measure the OG using a brewer’s hydrometer.
Measure the FG when the fermentation has attenuated (finished).
Calculate the “alcohol potential” of the wash.
Measure the volume of wash you transfer into the boiler.
Calculate the alcohol you expect to collect given the method of distillation (type of stillhead).
Assemble enough properly sized jars to collect the distillate into with a couple of extra jars on hand.
If collecting low wines, collect into a single vessel and collect the spirit until the vessel is 30%ABV (average) for the potstill stripped wash.

There you go…a “formula for success”.
ss
This was extremely educational.

I picked up a scent of annoyance in between all the educational bits.

I assume this is because if I spent hours and hours crawling thru here I would have come up with this information. For that I apologize. I didn't think it would entirely hurt to make this thread a one-for-all location on someone who has never even googled 'how to moonshine' on finding all the answers to any questions they could have specific to This 'beginners' recipe.

What's important though, is the information provided in response by still_stirrin will help my self and plenty of other people who decide to venture into this hobby and on this beginners recipe.

So again - Thank you to all who have chimed in to help a newbie like me.
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Re: Uncle Jesse’s Simple Sour Mash method

Post by NormandieStill »

Shine_Dad wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:36 am This was extremely educational.

I picked up a scent of annoyance in between all the educational bits.
This in a nutshell sums up many of still_stirrin's posts. Don't get too distracted by the scent and focus on the educational bits and you'll learn lots! :wink:
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Re: Uncle Jesse’s Simple Sour Mash method

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NormandieStill wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:46 am
Shine_Dad wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:36 am This was extremely educational.

I picked up a scent of annoyance in between all the educational bits.
This in a nutshell sums up many of still_stirrin's posts. Don't get too distracted by the scent and focus on the educational bits and you'll learn lots! :wink:
Can't run me off that easily. I'll take the bits that are important and overlook the 'tude, dude' Hah.

I can understand how someone with 9k posts is tired of repeating things...I've worked in my jobs industry for 16 years... so when someone calls me and wants tech support and clearly they shouldn't be working on the vehicle/installing the product themselves and I have to talk to them like they're a child... Believe me. I understand lol. At the same time, Shining is chinese to me until I get comfortable with it. So I'm the dummy in this scenario that needs to be talked to like a child hah.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Shine_Dad »

Well since my last post in this thread i'm on my 6th or 7th generation of UJSSM. Time and Moonshine Makin are going by crazy fast.

Now that i'm a handful of generations in, the flavor of this basic recipe is outstanding. With running a thumper in conjunction, I'm pulling out a gallon from my runs from around 75% to 55% on average, leaving around 2 gallons of heads and tails that I just proof together.

(( This is just some random shit)) I've made rapid aged cinnamon whiskey that was around 96 proof ( Three Quart Jars that are GONE :O ), some rapid aged just regular whiskey that was around 102 proof with a little bit of vanilla added to it, and i'm currently aging 2 Gallons of my own version of an Apple Pie that I call Apple Harvest. Not much different than most your apple pie recipes but a couple changes here and there. My test-run of this new recipe ( after the disaster I posted about a couple weeks ago ) was amazing... so much so that I was asked to make enough for friends/co-workers.

I picked up some more flavor by adding a half of a gallon of a heads/tails bottle to my Thumper. I discovered this about 3 runs ago and both the flavor and off-the-spout proof increased. So I now add a half gallon of heads/tails and around 5/8 gallon of the sugar head to the thumper per run.

So here's my question:

I could keep saving heads and tails... and eventually run a 10 gallon run of all my heads and tails... but here's what I'm wondering:

Once I siphon my 10 gallons into my primary still pot ( 15 gallon keg ) is there a reason why I Shouldn't add a gallon or two of my heads/tails mix into the still with it, to increase what I pull from the still and potentially increase the ABV and flavor? ( I'm NOT saying add it to the ferment bucket. I'm saying once I charge my still with another 10 gallons that has finished fermenting, adding this directly to the still before running it. )

I don't really want to waste a 10 gallon UJSSM run by just seeing what happens - if someone here can already tell me if there is any reason why I shouldn't. It just makes sense to me that if it seemed to improve both my ABV and flavor by adding some to my thumper, that instead of collecting all these jars of heads and tails that keep adding up that I go ahead and recycle them into my next run each time.

Would appreciate feedback on this.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by still_stirrin »

Shine_Dad wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:21 am… So here's my question: I could keep saving heads and tails... and eventually run a 10 gallon run of all my heads and tails, but here's what I'm wondering:

Once I siphon my 10 gallons into my primary still pot ( 15 gallon keg ) is there a reason why I shouldn’t add a gallon or two of my heads/tails mix into the still with it, to increase what I pull from the still and potentially increase the ABV and flavor?

(I'm NOT saying add it to the ferment bucket. I'm saying, once I charge my still with another 10 gallons that has finished fermenting, adding this directly to the still before running it.)
Sure, you can do it. But understand it will change what you collect from the spout. And adding feints may also add flavors you don’t want in your spirits. It will likely increase the flavors along with the higher volatile solvents (ketones, esters, etc.). If you’re OK with drinking them, considering you also cut them from previous collections, then it’s up to you to decide.
Shine_Dad wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:21 am…I don't really want to waste a 10 gallon UJSSM run by just seeing what happens - if someone here can already tell me if there is any reason why I shouldn't. It just makes sense to me that if it seemed to improve both my ABV and flavor by adding some to my thumper, that instead of collecting all these jars of heads and tails that keep adding up that I go ahead and recycle them into my next run each time.

Would appreciate feedback on this.
Me … I would keep the feints collection for a good cleaning run through the reflux stillhead. And if I wanted more flavor from a UJSSM product, I’d reduce the sugar and increase the corn (or other grain adjuncts). For me, it’s not necessarily about the “quick and easy” liquor, rather I enjoy the artistry and creativity of the process. It’s a hobby, after all, not a profession.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by TwoSheds »

What you propose is fine and many folks add their feints to spirit runs, mostly to increase yield but if it gets a little more flavor, even better. Expect all cuts, heads, hearts, and tails to be larger, so cut/blend based on taste not volume (which hopefully you are already.)

The alternative is to save them up over time and do an all-feints run when you have enough. Also valid, can be interesting, especially if the feints are from different recipes.

And a few people will tell you they don't recycle their feints at all and just throw them out feeling the recoverable, drinkable spirit left in them isn't enough to bother with.

To each their own! I'd say give it a try and decide for yourself. Adding feints alone shouldn't ruin a batch, but might change your cuts.

Hope that helps.

TwoSheds

Posted with SS, so you got a couple opinions to mull over.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Shine_Dad »

I appreciate the feedback from both of you.

It sounds like it comes down to... f*ck it, let's try it and see what happens.

I definitely was adding back too much corn originally instead of it being 50/50 so over time i've picked up some additional corn flavor that I like.

I'll be running this weekend again, so I'll toss in 2 gallosn of heads/tails, stir it up and let her eat and see what happens.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Shine_Dad »

Morning!

I will have to circle back to my last post in this thread to update how things went adding a gallon of heads/tails to the primary still. All in all it was a success, flavor did increase, initial ABV increased, and yield increased.

But I have another question/Just looking for opinion.

I HAVE read in this thread that this isn't necessarily uncommon, but just wanted some reassurance:

My fermentation time seems to be increasing.

We haven't really changed anything in the process. Weather has had some minor changes in heat the past few weeks but nothing crazy... if last week it was in the mid 90's this week was in the upper 80's.

Is this just normal? Initially my first few generations of this 'sugar head' would be done in 4-5 days. This is probably my 7th generation now for both barrels of this sugarhead. I'm going on about 10 days now and its still a litlte 'milky' looking. (Always looks this way until its done fermenting) It tastes bitter/sweet. It tastes like it's near being done. Doesn't taste infected or bad - the taste of it is the same as I have always had it taste as its almost done and ready to run. I can pull the lid and take a peak at it and its still working. Still seeing some bubbles. No 'head' anymore on top, but its still 'airing' or 'bubbling' so I feel like its fine, its just taking longer than it has before.

Any thoughts on this? Anything to worry about? Sometimes it just takes a little longer to finish fermenting?

Thanks!!
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by EricTheRed »

:D - temp will play a big role.
My ferments in winter take up to 4 weeks!
In Summer - 4 days!
My fekking eyes are bleeding! Installed BS Filters - better! :D
Life has gotten interesting!
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Use less backset next time.....ferment time should decrease.
Use half as much and see what happens.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Shine_Dad »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:11 am Use less backset next time.....ferment time should decrease.
Use half as much and see what happens.
This is probably what happened.... I had decided, in an effort to turn my 'moonshining' equally as much as possible into a project of 'how much can I recycle' and I upped the 1 gallon I was adding back each time to 2 gallons.

Originally this recipe calls for like ...25% or more of backset to be used? Which would mean 2.5-3.5 gallons. I'm averaging 11 gallons of water in my 'sugar head' - this includes ( now as of the last time I filled both containers back up to start the fermentation process ) 2 gallons of back set, all my sugar and then however much water i can fit in the barrel.

So basically i've been doing this:

(1) Drain about a half gallon of my sugar head - finished fermenting - and add around 1/2 gallon of heads and tails to the thumper.

(2) Charge still with entire remaining 'sugar head' which is around 10-10.5 gallons

(3) Add in a gallon of heads and tails to still

(4) While running the still, add back 3-4 gallons of water to the buckets to keep the yeast/corn happy.

(5) Then when done running the still, the next day when it has cooled down to room/outside temperature, put 2 gallons of backset with 3-4 gallons of water and all my sugar into my stainless container that is warmed up a little bit to break down the sugar.

(6) The following day when it has fully cooled down again, dump all of this into the bucket - then top off bucket with however much more water I can add, another 2-3 gallons.

Is it problematic to be using 2 gallons of backset in a 10-11 gallon 'bill' ? I was trying to pull more and more flavor, while equally recycling as much as I can back into the process each time. So is that problematic other than it extending the time it takes to ferment?

Why was the original recipe of recycling 25% or more of backset changed over time to very minimal backset? Just to maintain a faster fermentation process?

Thanks!
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subbrew
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by subbrew »

You don't mention removing corn and putting new back in but I will assume you are doing that. I suspect if you check Ph you will see it is has dropped over time. Thus the backset you are using now is more acidic than the backset you had from the first few batches. As SBB said, just back off the backset a bit and your fermentation times should shorten. My guess is your starting ph is now down around 3.5. It will drop from there so the yeast are stressing and working slower.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Shine_Dad »

subbrew wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:00 am You don't mention removing corn and putting new back in but I will assume you are doing that. I suspect if you check Ph you will see it is has dropped over time. Thus the backset you are using now is more acidic than the backset you had from the first few batches. As SBB said, just back off the backset a bit and your fermentation times should shorten. My guess is your starting ph is now down around 3.5. It will drop from there so the yeast are stressing and working slower.
Yes - Sorry. We scoop the spent corn each time and replace it with a fresh bowl of corn on top.

I have never re-pitched yeast.. until yesterday.

I added one tablespoon of fresh yeast to each fermentation barrel and stirred it in.

This was okay to do yes? I've run 6 or 7 generations of this Without pitching new yeast, and figured it wouldn't hurt, and might pick back up the speed some, if I added some more back in. So we pitched 1 tablespoon in each barrel.

I left that out. Lol. But that should be okay?

Thanks for everyones input, you have each provided something for me to think about and consider as I keep moving forward.

** Edit: I'm aware I'm bad about explaining too much and always having long posts... but it is what it is Lol. But I was wondering if someone wouldn't mind explaining to me, whether opinion or factual evidence from over times of doing this wash, why the amount of backset was reduced? Because it lowers PH and slows down the fermentation process? Or for other reasons? Thanks!
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by still_stirrin »

Shine_Dad wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:28 am… But I was wondering if someone wouldn't mind explaining to me, whether opinion or factual evidence from over times of doing this wash, why the amount of backset was reduced? Because it lowers PH and slows down the fermentation process? Or for other reasons? Thanks!
The acid accumulates in the fermenter. And at some point, it starts to inhibit yeast activity. Bacteria does not do well in a low pH environment, so a slightly acidic mash allows the yeast to beat bacteria at the starting line. However, too acidic will also stop yeast activity. Therfore, the backset is reduced with subsequent generations.

But don’t forget that yeast need oxygen during “budding”, the lifecycle phase the cells split and multiply. So, always give your ferment a good stir to start every subsequent generation.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Shine_Dad »

still_stirrin wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:52 am
Shine_Dad wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:28 am… But I was wondering if someone wouldn't mind explaining to me, whether opinion or factual evidence from over times of doing this wash, why the amount of backset was reduced? Because it lowers PH and slows down the fermentation process? Or for other reasons? Thanks!
The acid accumulates in the fermenter. And at some point, it starts to inhibit yeast activity. Bacteria does not do well in a low pH environment, so a slightly acidic mash allows the yeast to beat bacteria at the starting line. However, too acidic will also stop yeast activity. Therfore, the backset is reduced with subsequent generations.

But don’t forget that yeast need oxygen during “budding”, the lifecycle phase the cells split and multiply. So, always give your ferment a good stir to start every subsequent generation.
ss
I really appreciate this followup, SS. Thank you.

So our adding a fresh tablespoon of yeast to each fermenter and stirring it up to allow it to oxygenate was probably a good thing? If nothing else, it surely wouldn't have hurt anything additionally?

Thanks everyone!
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Saltbush Bill »

You don't need the fresh yeast.........stirring to oxygenate is needed.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by TwoSheds »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:29 am You don't need the fresh yeast.........stirring to oxygenate is needed.
But a little extra yeast probably didn't hurt anything either. SBB is right, with nutrients, oxygen, and a conducive environment the old, even dormant yeast will make plenty of new yeast on its own.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by bitter »

I did a ton of generations over 10 never had to add any yeast.

B
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Shine_Dad »

Question... because i'm starting to think that this thing is ready to run even though it looks different this time around...

Will a finished UJSM "ALWAYS" look clear? The previous generations always ended up clear once it was done fermenting... as in like I open the lid to my 'blue' food grade barrels and what was a white cloudy color at first turned into just a dark color inside the dark blue barrel...meaning it was basically 'clear' but the dark blue colored food barrels make it look almost black.

Is it possible that if the previous time i used... lets say spring water, and the next time i used a different water, is it possible that it could be done fermenting but not be 'clear' like it normally is?

Or is it still trying to finish fermenting if it still has a cloudy look?

This first one is going on like 2 weeks... a week longer than it has previously taken to ferment... and it tastes bitter. It tastes the way it is supposed to taste. It doesn't taste bad, it doesn't taste too sweet... it has that finished bitter taste, but its not 'clear' this time.

Maybe i'm just being impatient because i want to run another round of shine... but it is very odd to me that it looks/seems different this time.

I can't think of Anything that we did this time around that was different than the previous times... and yes the weather has changed some... but not in a way that is significant in my opinion. it went from mid 90's the previous generation of fermenting to high 80's... that is not a 'massive' temperature change.

I'm going to see if I can upload a short video clip or picture of it.

Is there a way I can tell if it can be run? Can i put it in my hydrometer tube and verify it has alcohol content? and if so, what would that be naturally based on this recipe? somewhere around 5-6% ABV?
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Shine_Dad »

Here is a video of Barrel 1 - It is going on like 13 days... after adding the 1 tbsp of additional yeast, it didn't change anything, it didn't cause a new head to form or anything... which is why i think its done, i'm just not used to it getting cloudy.

It tastes Clearly more bitter than the barrel next to it that still has a little bit of head and is much more active as far as air bubbles... barrel 2 is the one we decided to recyle 2 gallons of backset so i'm not surprised that it is still working off... but barrel 1... maybe its my impatience but i think its ready to run... I would love some feedback... i'll be busy the next couple hours but if no feedback by then we're going to charge everything and run it and see what happens.

Thanks!

Update: It's not letting me upload a video so here is a picture:
barrel1.JPG
You can see I paused the video in a spot where you can see two bubbles... but it is not just sitting there 'bubbling' / 'working away' like barrel 2 still shows signs of.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Shine_Dad »

Well without input we decided that we really only had one option.

Fuck it. Run it.

We went ahead and ran that barrel tonight. It produced a lower yield as far as total jars, and it was slightly lower in proof than normal and jumped down pretty quick.

We were able to pull out some shit worth keeping for sure, but more importantly ... I ( Think ) we realized what happened.

I got Lazy.

We realized on that barrel that had been going for 2 weeks was one in which I had decided considering it was super hot out, we didn't need to warm up the water and gallon of backset to mix in all the sugar. Previously, I had Always ran the bit kettle pot on the burner to get the water up to 150-160 to mix in the sugar so it dissolved...

We are thinking that because I didn't think it was necessary to dissolve the sugar better, that the yeast was fighting super hard to break it down..

And that basically... that barrel Still wasn't done fully fermenting even after 13-14 days.

But its gone now. We warmed up 4 gallons of water including our 1 gallon of backset ( instead of doing 2 ) to aroudn 150-160 to dissolve all the sugar and have started the fermentation process over on that barrel. We think, or at least have an opinion, that this may have been part of why we had issues. I guess we'll know in a few days.

Moral of the story... I fucked around with things and found out the hard way that I should have just maintained what I had been doing for the first 6-7 generations in these barrels...and i'm reversing those 'experiments' and going back to what I was doing before.

It's okay to experiment with things to see what does what, but also, trust these 'proven recipes'. I'm quite convinced that this new barrel will ferment as normal and have me back to where I was.
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