Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

[Nabatean]

Gave it a shot and ..... I am convinced !
Stopped using tomato paste years ago but after this run I will stick to it.
I keep it on 25 C though. Not higher.

Thanks Birdwatchers

Curious why not higher. Mine ferment out around 30°C with good success. Using red star yeast.

Hi

Update : your sugarwash is VERY fast. Faster than I am used to, so I will certainly adapt the recipe. Thanks Birdwatchers
Scaled down in 20 liter water bottles.

Now about temperature.
Well, first there is the practical issue. Its usually between 20 and 25 degrees in my house, If I keep the wash near the stove, I get a constant 24 degrees.
But besides this, my experience with yeast (and mycelium) is that 20+ to 25-r is an optimum temperature for growth. I tried sugar wash is the Middle East at 30 to 40 degrees (and more) by just keeping the mash in the garden shed. After a while I noticed I had better results indoor at 20 to 25 degrees than outdoors at 30 to 40 (even tried a 45 degrees C in summer)

Nothing scientific here. But from experience, a 24 degrees C, nice and slow, gives the best result..

PS I use common bakers yeast

[Nabatean]

I ran birdwatchers stuff today and the yield is excellent.
Lots of yield in the tail though.
Taste is OK, no tomatopaste flavor in it

Again thanks birdwatchers.

[The newbiest]

I'll be using this recipe once my still is finished - and after I've read through all 54 pages of the thread!

[gimp1973]

With other washes I've used, I can pretty much leave the finished product in the carboy until I'm ready to distill it. With this wash though, I find that if I leave it too long it starts to smell sulfury. Has anybody else found that? I'm using Red Start yeast, maybe it's just how that yeast is? It's not a big problem, just something I wasn't expecting.

[Saltbush Bill]

Never noticed any sulfur smell, Ive only ever left it for a few weeks to clear then run it.

[Nabatean]

With other washes I've used, I can pretty much leave the finished product in the carboy until I'm ready to distill it. With this wash though, I find that if I leave it too long it starts to smell sulfury. Has anybody else found that? I'm using Red Start yeast, maybe it's just how that yeast is? It's not a big problem, just something I wasn't expecting.

If you have to store (which IMO isnt the best solution) :
Wait till all sediment is down, usually meaning all sugar is magically mutated in something else
Decant and store without vapour lock.
Had wash stored like that for months and it remained OK

Worked for me

[The newbiest]

A couple of quick questions - I have loads of dextrose around, can I substitute this 1 for 1 (by weight) for table sugar?
I really don't like canned tomatoes - I mean the smell of the stuff makes me gag and always has done. I'll be using L1118 yeast (as that's what I have around) - do I need to add a yeast nutrient in place of the evil tomato paste?

[gimp1973]

With other washes I've used, I can pretty much leave the finished product in the carboy until I'm ready to distill it. With this wash though, I find that if I leave it too long it starts to smell sulfury. Has anybody else found that? I'm using Red Start yeast, maybe it's just how that yeast is? It's not a big problem, just something I wasn't expecting.

If you have to store (which IMO isnt the best solution) :
Wait till all sediment is down, usually meaning all sugar is magically mutated in something else
Decant and store without vapour lock.
Had wash stored like that for months and it remained OK

Worked for me

Ah, thanks a ton, I'll try that if I have to store it again. My solution now is to just distill everything even if I don't need it. It'll keep better in a bottle at 40% abv

[fizzix]

A couple of quick questions - I have loads of dextrose around, can I substitute this 1 for 1 (by weight) for table sugar?
I really don't like canned tomatoes - I mean the smell of the stuff makes me gag and always has done. I'll be using L1118 yeast (as that's what I have around) - do I need to add a yeast nutrient in place of the evil tomato paste?

Hey newbiest, check out this alternate nutrient thread.
You can use DAP (diammonium phosphate), boiled yeast, breakfast cereal, wheat germ-- on and on. No need to gag in this hobby!

{I'm in the opposite camp. Paste swoons me and I could eat tomatoey spaghetti and pizza every day if the wife allowed.}

And Dextrose... more costly, no real benefits. But if you already have it, that's a plus. Reference

[The newbiest]

Thanks so much, Fizzix - I don't know how I missed that, I've been reading this forum so much! I have stacks of pure dextrose about because my GF is a horse person, and gets it super cheap as her stables order it by the tonne. so it's free to me!
Picked up the still today, but it's all wrapped up so far - will hopefully start the wash and fermentation tomorrow. One water run, a sacrificial alky run, and then my first proper run... can't wait!

Thanks again,

Pat.

[cdd]

is it ok to make a new ferment on top of old yeast bed?

[Bushman]

is it ok to make a new ferment on top of old yeast bed?

I have never done it with birdwatchers but it is done all the time with UJSSM and Sour Mash recipe.

[Night Hawk]

Quick question, I hope.

I made my first batch of birdwatchers 3 days ago, and I totally forgot to add the tomato paste. Is it to late now to add some? It's fermenting although very slowly compared to the mead I have going.

[scoutdoors1000]

Never too late. Personally, though, I would let It go without changing it and just take notes. See how long it takes to finish then do a ferment with the paste and see how long it takes. I run birdwatchers but keep reusing what is left after a run as my back and then dump sugar in after a run. I use the hot water from a run to dissolve my sugar and then add a little paste then the crap from the bottom of the initial ferment to kick the new one. Max reuse at this point is five times. I then used that fifth time to kick a patotato mash. I took old sprouted potatoes and put them in a crock pot for,12 hours. Then added vitamin b from otc and it blew the lid of my fermenter in 12hours. Foermented to completion in 24 hours. I did 8 lbs potato and 4 lbs sugar. I normally run my column and get 1 gal 50ish out of 5 gal. I stripped thismrun and got around 2 growlers worth before hitting 20% as a stop. The rest got put in the “dump back” jar. Now I have left over potato and baby food ferment with leas to kic’ that has been sitting for 4 years.......

[FL Brewer]

I did my version of Birdwatchers wash.... I have a 12 gal fermenter, so I made two half batches for two stripping runs in my half bbl keg. I used 20 lbs of sugar, one and a half cups tomato paste, a heaping teaspoon of citric acid (instead of the lemon juice), and added 5 teaspoons of Fermax yeast nutrient (DAP and a few other things the yeasties like). Mixed about 13 or 14 pounds of the sugar, warm water, tomato paste, Fermax, citric acid in the fermenter after sanitizing it with StarSan solution. Top up with water to just under 10 gallons, add 113 grams Fleishman's bakers yeast. If takes off pretty quickly, and ferments warm. Starting gravity was a little over 1070.

After the fermentation slows/stalls, I add the last 6 or 7 pounds of sugar, another quart or two of water, and stir well. Don't just dump it in all at once if you're anywhere near the capacity of your fermenter..... like ten and a half gallons in a 12 gallon fermenter. It foamed up as the new sugar hit the yeast, and made a nice mess on the countertop, and down the cabinets..... I add the sugar in two steps because I don't want to stress the bakers yeast with a very high starting gravity. After it's slowed down due to the alcohol content, adding more back in brings the sugar available to ferment up a bit.

The ferment was slow at this point (I think I'm probably reaching the alcohol tolerance of baker's yeast), so I sprinkled a packet of good ole EC-1118 yeast on top. It took off again, the bakers yeast seems to clump up and settle out while the EC-1118 takes over. About 5 or 6 days after mixing it up, ready to strip. The first batch never really cleared, but I went ahead and stripped it anyway. Don't taste anything nasty in the low wines - I collected almost two and half gallons at 60%. Second batch is kinda clearing, I'll strip it in the morning. Should end up with close to 5 gallons of 60% low wines, a pretty good yield from two ferments in my 12 gallon bucket.

I have a brand new VM column I'm gonna run this on. Have already done the cleaning runs, and it's ready for the real thing. Will let you know how my first sugar wash neutral turns out. I'll have to post some photos on the appropriate thread, but the quick summary is 47" of 2" column packed with copper mesh and scrubbies (didn't have quite enough mesh), flexible stainless gas line reflux condensor.

Edited: I originally said 225 gms baker's yeast, that's the total I used for both ferments. It's 113 gms each batch.

[FL Brewer]

Stripped the 2nd batch this morning; it didn't really clear up, but I'm occupied for the next few days, so had to run it today. Measured SG of 990 at about 75F, so if it wasn't done, it was close to it. Ended up with a little under 5 gallons of low wine at about 60%, total from both ferment batches. Will probably do the spirit run next weekend.

[jedics]

Hey all, a 2 year user of the Birdwatcher recipe and loving it. I'm using turbo clear to drop the yeast and paste our of the mash but the results vary from a stellar crystal clear mash to really cloudy and have tried many methods to get it clear consistently without success so thought I would ask here if anyone has had/solved the problem.

I recently talked to one of the guys who sells the turbo clear saying if I used raw sugar like I do that the yeast may not be using all of it up which may inhibit the separation process, is this true?

My meter seems to be telling me that it is reaching full consumption of the sugar more or less.....

[fizzix]

Hey all, a 2 year user of the Birdwatcher recipe and loving it. I'm using turbo clear to drop the yeast and paste our of the mash but the results vary from a stellar crystal clear mash to really cloudy and have tried many methods to get it clear consistently without success so thought I would ask here if anyone has had/solved the problem.

I recently talked to one of the guys who sells the turbo clear saying if I used raw sugar like I do that the yeast may not be using all of it up which may inhibit the separation process, is this true?

My meter seems to be telling me that it is reaching full consumption of the sugar more or less.....

Is it cloudy out of the spout, or only after dilution?
Off the spout could mean you're running too hot or going too deep into tails.
I've made gallons of Birdwatcher's and it's always clear --both strip and spirit runs, so let's look at those 2 items and also how you're making cuts.

[Saltbush Bill]

Who ever told you that you need a clearing agent in Birdwatchers is making money out of you, let it sit a week , strip it ...then run it.

[still_stirrin]

...I'm using turbo clear to drop the yeast...but the results vary...

What yeast? Baker’s (bread) yeast? It sounds like the yeast is not very flocculant.

You shouldn’t need any settling agents for a simple sugar wash if the yeast is healthy. It’ll consume the sugars and go dormant, flocculating and settling. You should see stratification in the fermenter a day or two following attenuation, when fermentation stops. Let it set a few days...or better yet, chill it down if you can (I put my carboys into the beer fridge in the garage). That will speed the flocculation process.

I recently talked to one of the guys who sells the turbo clear saying if I used raw sugar like I do that the yeast may not be using all of it up which may inhibit the separation process, is this true?...

It sounds like he’s a better salesman than brewer.

Raw versus refined sugar likely is not the cause of the cloudiness. Raw versus refined could affect attenuation (the amount, or rate of consumption of the sugars), but when the ferment is done, the yeast will settle regardless if there is some non-fermentable sugars in the wash. And your hydrometer will indicate if there are remaining non-fermentable sugars when the yeast is done.

One caveat here though is...provided you haven’t pushed the OG beyond the yeast’s capacity to conusme all the sugars. If you’re trying to ferment a BW wash with the potential of 15%ABV, or higher using bread yeast, it is likely dying due to alcohol levels and not the complete consumption of sugars.

And to that, if you’re trying to push the wash too high (you shouldn’t be doing this if following the recipe correctly), then when the yeast dies due to the high alcohol content it can affect the flocculation (clumping together of the cells) which initiates the settling in your fermenter. This can be a cause for slow and incomplete clearing of the fermented wash.

You are adhering to the recipe aren’t you?
ss

[jon1163]

Hey all, a 2 year user of the Birdwatcher recipe and loving it. I'm using turbo clear to drop the yeast and paste our of the mash but the results vary from a stellar crystal clear mash to really cloudy and have tried many methods to get it clear consistently without success so thought I would ask here if anyone has had/solved the problem.

I recently talked to one of the guys who sells the turbo clear saying if I used raw sugar like I do that the yeast may not be using all of it up which may inhibit the separation process, is this true?

My meter seems to be telling me that it is reaching full consumption of the sugar more or less.....

In all of my mashes and washes, bird watchers too, I've never fully cleared a wash or Mash. I let it settle out rack off the clear maybe squeeze the grains if there are any and run it. I run on gas flame and also elements. Never had a scorch

[Pinkman]

Hey All,
ive been distilling for a few years now. i have 4 still's also recently purchased a turbo still (i know) im going to give this recipe a shot. i just read through all 58 pages of posts. bought all the supplys. gonna give it a stripping run through my pot still and finish it up in the turbo. see how it goes.

[GCB3]

I am running my first attempt at this recipe. I scaled it to two 14 gal batches that fit my fermenters.

Have an interesting thing happening. I made both batches at the same time, using the same ingredients. Each batch hit the 1.090 SG on the button. Both fermenters are insulated and the ambient temp is about 88*F daily. Batch 1 is perking away just as described in this thread. Bubbling every 2 seconds, a thin bubble layer on the surface, holding 85*F without any applied heat, pH has dropped from 6.0 initially to 5, and the corrected SG is dropping approx 0.010 each day.

Batch 2 was almost asleep. After the first night, the surface activity looked slow, almost no bubbles, the temp dropped to about 83*F. SG after 24 hrs was still around 1.088 corrected. Concerned, I cranked up the heat on this batch to 90*F. Its been holding there for two days. There is no noticeable increase in surface activity, pH is at 5, and SG is dropping approximately 0.004 a day.

Guess I’ll finish one in a week and one in 2 weeks or so. Luckily, I plan to run a third batch, so, I should have a free fermenter in hopefully a week! It is normally “operator error” around my shed, but, it’s interesting how two apparently identical batches have such a differing fermentation rate. Anybody else experienced this?

[Undies]

Gave it a shot and ..... I am convinced !
Stopped using tomato paste years ago but after this run I will stick to it.
I keep it on 25 C though. Not higher.

Thanks Birdwatchers

Curious why not higher. Mine ferment out around 30°C with good success. Using red star yeast.

Hi

Update : your sugarwash is VERY fast. Faster than I am used to, so I will certainly adapt the recipe. Thanks Birdwatchers
Scaled down in 20 liter water bottles.

Now about temperature.
Well, first there is the practical issue. Its usually between 20 and 25 degrees in my house, If I keep the wash near the stove, I get a constant 24 degrees.
But besides this, my experience with yeast (and mycelium) is that 20+ to 25-r is an optimum temperature for growth. I tried sugar wash is the Middle East at 30 to 40 degrees (and more) by just keeping the mash in the garden shed. After a while I noticed I had better results indoor at 20 to 25 degrees than outdoors at 30 to 40 (even tried a 45 degrees C in summer)

Nothing scientific here. But from experience, a 24 degrees C, nice and slow, gives the best result..

PS I use common bakers yeast

I ferment at 30ºC (86ºF) with just as good results as lower temperatures. From what I have learnt after 1,000,000 pages of this thread, it's more important to keep the temperature constant as the yeast gets used to a temperature, so it's happiest at this constant temperature. Whether it's 20ºC, 25ºC, or 30ºC (68ºF, 77ºF, or 86ºF), doesn't seem to matter aside from time to finish.

[GCB3]

Update:

It’s now been 7 days since I started these ferments. On Thursday I racked Batch 1 into three, 6 gal carboys with airlocks and loaded Batch 3 into the fermenter. Batch 1, that was dropping SG at 0.010/day, has slowed and all three batches are dropping approx. 0.004/day. I have surface activity on all three batches, loosing sweetness, pH is right at 4.0 each and all three are 85*F+. Looks like I’m in for, hopefully, late this coming week. Guess I just need to “chillax”.

Not sure why I’m running so slow compared to most other reports. I am using city water, my only source. I would guess this could be a factor, but, I haven’t had it anaylisized.

[GCB3]

Where’s spell check when you need it?

[GCB3]

I really could use some advice. I’m now into day 15 for batches 1 & 2 and 10 days for Batch 3. All three of these batches have been slow (-0.004 or less per day after the first 3 or 4 days)

In summary:(sg’s @60*F)

Batch #. Days. Temp *F pH OG. Current SG. Calc ABV.

1. 10. 82.6. 4. 1.085. 1.025. 8.0%.

Comments: Still have large bubbles on surface, tastes almost dry, SG has been constant last 3 days

2 10. 83.2. 4 1.091 1.035 7.5%

Comments: No apparent surface activity, has slight sweet taste, SG dropped 0.004 over last 3 days

3 8 84.9 4 1.091 1.045 6.1%

Comments: Slight surface activity, sweet taste, SG constant last 3 days

I’m flumoxed. To the best of my ability, I followed the recipe to the letter and I believe all three batches are identically made using the same raw materials. I have no idea why these guys are creeping along (or done).

Should I:
a. Call them done and move on, or
b. Make adjustments to pH or add heat, or ( I only have those cheap, pH strips. But, they are consistently showing 4 the last 5 days, started at 6 at yeast addition)
c. Add some nutes, or
d. Chillax and let em run another week or so, or
e. Any combination of the above, or
f. Just mix a drink?

Is there something else I can do to increase the final ABV? Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks

On previewing this post I see where my attempt at showing the data as a chart lost the spacing on the three lines.i guess you’ll have to look “diagonally” to line it up. Sorry.

[6 Row Joe]

F sounds good. The one that has stalled is ready the others not yet as long as the sg keeps going down. I don't get concerned about the final abv. It is what it is. Some of my smoothest is 8%. Dont overthink it. Just use good ingredients with the proper amounts and let it go. I have let the finished batch set for a few more days to clear, have used chemicals to clear, and ran it when it was done without clearing all with good results.

[GCB3]

Thanks, Joe. Option f was a good idea!

After reading all the great results so many have had with this T&T, I was hoping for a little better yield. I went back and reread a bunch of the Sugar thread posts. I can’t believe how many times I have to read things for them to sink in!!!!! There are a number of posts there saying you can sometimes restart a slow/stalled sugar wash by making sure the ph is above 5, buffer with some oyster shells, cook up a yeast bomb, and try fresh yeast. I think I’ll give that a try in one batch in the morning, if for no other purpose than maybe learning something.

I’m not really worried about chasing 0.995 and as you said, 8% will work. But, in the 6% range, I feel like I’m leaving some chips on the table. The goal here was to make some really clean neutral, so, maybe that 8% will work to my favor.
Thanks for the feedback.

[GCB3]

Just got back after the mandatory evacuation for Hurricane Florence for 5 days. The good news is no damage and my ferments didn’t know I was gone.
Before I left, I took one batch and adjuted pH up to approx 5.5 with pickling lime, added a heater set at 90*F, and gave it a Pintoshine (T&T all molly recipe) yeast bomb. I’m such a great scientist that try to learn something by changing 3 important variables all at once! WTF, I was trying to escape a freakin hurricane!!!

The two non-juiced batches used my absence to drop another 0.010-0.020 SG points. Both ended with a calc. ABV of approx 9%. The juiced one measured 0.998 with an ABV over 12%. So, my conclusion is that final SG and ABV are a function of pH, temperature, and nutrients!

After starting this 22 days ago, I’m calling these done. Going to add some chilling tonight and rack them off as soon as cleared.