Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Rrmuf » Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:48 am

I looked for and failed (sorry!) to find a post on the forum that listed the top 10 (turned into 12) reasons why fermentations stall. I found it very useful when my own WPOSW batch stalled out. It was very useful. If I find it, I will send it to you, but you should look for it directly. You will run into all kinds of hints along the way.
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by TeeDiddy » Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:19 pm

Rrmuf wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:48 am
I looked for and failed (sorry!) to find a post on the forum that listed the top 10 (turned into 12) reasons why fermentations stall. I found it very useful when my own WPOSW batch stalled out. It was very useful. If I find it, I will send it to you, but you should look for it directly. You will run into all kinds of hints along the way.
Thanks, I couldn't find that post either yet. I found this list on a winemaking site - https://eckraus.com/wine-making-failure/ - that I guess might cover some of the points, although one or two items I'm not sure are relevant, and I've already seen a couple of things missing, bookmarked anyway as a start. I'll keep looking, or maybe compile a list myself after researching some more of the many threads/posts here on the subject.

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by StillerBoy » Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:07 pm

TeeDiddy wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:00 pm
it seems to be basically done at 1.004 after 14 days. Most peoples problems seem to be about pH, but my pH seems okay, at least when I eventually measured it. Did I do something wrong here, or do I just need to use more sugar and maybe more yeast next time?
There are 3 main items and a few smaler litems that will cause a sugar to take more than 4 days to ferment dry and will even stall if not address early enough.. any delays in adjusting/correcting these item will cause a problem for the wash at a future time..

Stable fermenting temp for the yeast being used, failure to check and correct the PH of the wash within the first 9th and 24th mark, wanting a higher ABV outcome that what the yeast is suited for.. on the small items, insufficient amount of yeast or incorrectly started either to much or insufficient amounts of yeast nutrient, and pitching at the wrong temp.. and if any of these situations occur, clearing of the wash will be hinder to the point of not clearing at all..

A properly structured recipe, with proper temp and Ph management will ferment dry in 2.5 to 4 days..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my ideas "

– Albert Einstein

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Rrmuf » Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:02 am

TeeDiddy wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:19 pm
Rrmuf wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:48 am
I looked for and failed (sorry!) to find a post on the forum that listed the top 10 (turned into 12) reasons why fermentations stall. I found it very useful when my own WPOSW batch stalled out. It was very useful. If I find it, I will send it to you, but you should look for it directly. You will run into all kinds of hints along the way.
Thanks, I couldn't find that post either yet. I found this list on a winemaking site - https://eckraus.com/wine-making-failure/ - that I guess might cover some of the points, although one or two items I'm not sure are relevant, and I've already seen a couple of things missing, bookmarked anyway as a start. I'll keep looking, or maybe compile a list myself after researching some more of the many threads/posts here on the subject.
Found it!!!!

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60502
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by StillerBoy » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:15 am

Rrmuf..

Thanks for posting the thread link.. as I had never seen or read it before.. but pretty much what I had observed and experience, but more importantly, expressed here in this thread and other threads..

It's called paying attention to details.. simply having a good recipe, attention to few things at the appropriate time, and it will be done in no time without encountering issues.. note keeping and being mindful is the work..

I seldom have an issue with any kind of ferments, but the note log of all the experiments with washes / mashes is my most valuable tool..

One has to remember also is that a lots of these T&T recipes were done quite a few ago, plus done without being mindful of details involve in making a wash or mash as it was somewhat acceptable to take 10 days or more.. yeah they work pretty well in general, but lots of room for improvement, and the improvements are in the details.. and by paying attention to the details, the wash / mashes are done in 3 - 4 days, no exception but miss one and issues araise..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my ideas "

– Albert Einstein

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Rrmuf » Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:15 am

StillerBoy wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:15 am
Rrmuf..

Thanks for posting the thread link.. as I had never seen or read it before.. but pretty much what I had observed and experience, but more importantly, expressed here in this thread and other threads..

It's called paying attention to details.. simply having a good recipe, attention to few things at the appropriate time, and it will be done in no time without encountering issues.. note keeping and being mindful is the work..

I seldom have an issue with any kind of ferments, but the note log of all the experiments with washes / mashes is my most valuable tool..

One has to remember also is that a lots of these T&T recipes were done quite a few ago, plus done without being mindful of details involve in making a wash or mash as it was somewhat acceptable to take 10 days or more.. yeah they work pretty well in general, but lots of room for improvement, and the improvements are in the details.. and by paying attention to the details, the wash / mashes are done in 3 - 4 days, no exception but miss one and issues araise..

Mars
+1 on the note taking! My log book is getting full!

I have yet to see a fermentation finish in 4 days, but I think my current one might: A TedFFV has dropped 30+ points after 40 hours and so that *might* hit .990ish by 4 days: we will see!
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Saltbush Bill » Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:27 am

Rrmuf wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:15 am
I have yet to see a fermentation finish in 4 days
Not everybody is in a huge rush, many are happy to wait a week ....or more.
Thousands of people world wide have been making these washes for a long time without fussing over them.
99% of those washes finish just fine and go on to make the owner some great booze.
Ya ever seen any photos of those old timers fussing with PH meters , heating mats and the like ?

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Rrmuf » Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:12 am

Saltbush Bill wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:27 am
Rrmuf wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:15 am
I have yet to see a fermentation finish in 4 days
Not everybody is in a huge rush, many are happy to wait a week ....or more.
Thousands of people world wide have been making these washes for a long time without fussing over them.
99% of those washes finish just fine and go on to make the owner some great booze.
Ya ever seen any photos of those old timers fussing with PH meters , heating mats and the like ?
Understood, and I agree. I never considered it a problem, and am quite happy to have fermentations take longer. I just like to understand the deviations from others' results following the same recipe. .... I also love threading my way forward between what the old timers bring to the hobby and those of us newer to it.... and I do love the great booze! :D
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by StillerBoy » Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:34 am

Saltbush Bill wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:27 am
Not everybody is in a huge rush, many are happy to wait a week ....or more.
Thousands of people world wide have been making these washes for a long time without fussing over them.
99% of those washes finish just fine and go on to make the owner some great booze.
Ya ever seen any photos of those old timers fussing with PH meters , heating mats and the like ?
I get the feeling you are offended each time I or someone else post that ferment finishes within 3 days or less..

Has it ever occur that an un-healthy environment maybe the reason why the yeast so long to ferment out..

It's has nothing to with rushing and sure they do works in shity environment, but just because they do finish, it doesn't mean it's a healthy ferment..

Yeah the old timers had no tools to work with, but if they were here today, I think they would them..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my ideas "

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Rrmuf » Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:10 am

StillerBoy wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:34 am
Saltbush Bill wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:27 am
Not everybody is in a huge rush, many are happy to wait a week ....or more.
Thousands of people world wide have been making these washes for a long time without fussing over them.
99% of those washes finish just fine and go on to make the owner some great booze.
Ya ever seen any photos of those old timers fussing with PH meters , heating mats and the like ?
I get the feeling you are offended each time I or someone else post that ferment finishes within 3 days or less..

Has it ever occur that an un-healthy environment maybe the reason why the yeast so long to ferment out..

It's has nothing to with rushing and sure they do works in shity environment, but just because they do finish, it doesn't mean it's a healthy ferment..

Yeah the old timers had no tools to work with, but if they were here today, I think they would them..

Mars
I guess thats why I am curious about deviations from these 4-day ferments. I learned (here) that:
1. the best booze starts with the cleanest washes,
2. the best washes come from the healthiest yeast environments, and
3. the speed of fermentation is a good indicator of a healthy yeast environment. (Putting aside the whole turbo yeast thing)
I do use the tools available to me to make that envionment as good as possible.
--- No hurry; just having un chasing perfection like everyone else. :lol:
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Durhommer » Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:23 am

The first couple of this wash I did went right but then it slowed then went right again then slowed again I think my problem has been my sugar to water ratios I noticed the last one took forever at 1090 but my 1070s work great
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by StillerBoy » Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:46 am

Durhommer wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:23 am
I think my problem has been my sugar to water ratios I noticed the last one took forever at 1090 but my 1070s work great
I agree with your statement, that what you noticed on the sugar amounts is correct.. that's called paying attention to details..

The sugar amount used, is one of the major stress ingredient for the yeast has to deal with.. once the 1040 mark is cross, yeast start being expose to a higher level of sugar than they appreciate.. the wash / mash may start off ok, but within 24 - 36 hrs, something starts to happen as the fermenting activity start to slow, and the higher the amount, the early that takes place..

If one were to keep the sugar level at 1035 - 1040 range, and make step additions to reach the abv level one has targetted, same a 10% wash abv, it will be done in 2.5 days..

One has to keep in mind that sugar is just one ingredient in a recipe, the other ingredients that make the recipe are also very important in amounts and composition.. plus along with a stable fermenting temp, and Ph monitoring and adjustments..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my ideas "

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Durhommer » Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:18 am

Just for shits now I'll make a wineos wash 30 pounds to 18 gallons should get me somewhere right now it's the only fun thing I have to do...laundry day sucks
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by sampvt » Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:18 am

Ive got 7 x 6 gallon washes in my spare room and the temp is pretty constant at between 25 to 30 degrees. They are all bubbling away merrily at several gloops a minute and it has been on for 7 days now. The opening sg was 1070 and it has dropped to only 1050 now across the buckets. At this right its going to take several weeks. I might need to fire off another kale wash just to keep me going as that one finishes in 7 days and I'm running short for xmas, lol. Im sure this wineos is great as its not giving off any smells like the others do and it has a milkier looking texture. I hope this is normal, can someone comment please.

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Durhommer » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:23 am

You may need to insulate your fermenters and wineos wash does run slow if your ph is out of whack
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by sampvt » Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:24 am

Durhommer wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:23 am
You may need to insulate your fermenters and wineos wash does run slow if your ph is out of whack
PH is perfect and the tubs are in my spare bedroom that is temp controlled to 24 c on the central heating and I've got heating wires temp controlled to 26 c on all tubs bar the middle one. I followed the recipe to the letter ut made a mistake on the yeast. It called for 1/2 a cup so not knowing what half a cup was in grams, I guestimated 120grams. Turns out half a cup is less than that so I've got about 3/4 a cup of bakers yeast in the mix on all of them but that wont cause a slow ferment or will it, ??????

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Saltbush Bill » Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:39 am

26c is cold for bakers yeast if thats what your using.

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by sampvt » Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:04 pm

Saltbush Bill wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:39 am
26c is cold for bakers yeast if thats what your using.
Funnily enough I put a heater in earlier and cranked up the heater wires and I've got the tub temps up to 29/30 and they seem to be going better, ill leave the heater on tonight to get the room up to 35 and hopefully we will see some difference tomorrow. Thanks.

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by CoogeeBoy » Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:13 pm

sampvt wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:04 pm
Saltbush Bill wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:39 am
26c is cold for bakers yeast if thats what your using.
Funnily enough I put a heater in earlier and cranked up the heater wires and I've got the tub temps up to 29/30 and they seem to be going better, ill leave the heater on tonight to get the room up to 35 and hopefully we will see some difference tomorrow. Thanks.
Coincidentally I have 2 batches of TFFV running at the moment, one is being heated with a heat belt at 31C, the other is next to it as my other heat belt stopped working. This other one is at around 25-26C. Will put belt on the other ferment tomorrow when I expect SG to go below 0 on my heated one.

The difference in the activity is remarkable, those extra few degrees make all the difference.

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by sampvt » Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:43 pm

CoogeeBoy wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:13 pm
sampvt wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:04 pm
Saltbush Bill wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:39 am
26c is cold for bakers yeast if thats what your using.
Funnily enough I put a heater in earlier and cranked up the heater wires and I've got the tub temps up to 29/30 and they seem to be going better, ill leave the heater on tonight to get the room up to 35 and hopefully we will see some difference tomorrow. Thanks.
Coincidentally I have 2 batches of TFFV running at the moment, one is being heated with a heat belt at 31C, the other is next to it as my other heat belt stopped working. This other one is at around 25-26C. Will put belt on the other ferment tomorrow when I expect SG to go below 0 on my heated one.

The difference in the activity is remarkable, those extra few degrees make all the difference.
I like to do a minimum of 3 x 6-gallon washes at a time for stripping and refluxing, and temp has always been my nemesis, so tonight I have ordered a single electric blanket that will be stretched around the back and just over the lip of all 4 tubs, secured by some small bungee cords, through the eyelets in the blanket. I am assured by another brewer friend of mine that on number one setting, his tubs stay at 30c constantly and the cost of running the blanket is a lot less than a space heater as heat is concentrated. We will see if it works.

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by doomy » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:52 am

A week ago i made a wash of ~55l with 10kg Sugar, 30g DAP and ~600ml of US05 yeast cake from a beer fermentation.
I split the wash into 3 20l kegs for fermentation. Checking with a refractometer resulted in ~18brix(1.075)
They really took off after 24h and slowed considerably after 72h. A refractometer reading showed 15brix(1.050) after 96h. Today i checked again, now all three kegs seem stuck at ~15brix (1.050). :(

I already checked the ph of one keg and it seems normal at 4.26.

I'm guessing the yeast is the problem but i have 3 kegs so i decided to do a little experiment:

Tank 1 (Control): Shaked for 60s and moved to a warmer room

Tank 2: Added 7g of bakers yeast rehydrated in 600ml water, shaked for 60s and moved to a warmer room

Tank 3: Added 5g of DAP in 600ml water, shaked for 60s and moved to a warmer room

Lets see how this goes
Last edited by doomy on Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by greggn » Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:41 am

doomy wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:52 am
A week ago i made a wash of ~55l with 10kg Sugar, 30g DAP and ~200ml of US05 yeast cake from a beer.

30g of DAP into 55L seems rather excessive. If the ferment completes I fear that's going to produce a lot of off flavors/tastes.
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Durhommer » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:05 am

What ever happened to the recipe
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by zed255 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:07 am

Did you use a correction calculation for your SG after the ferment started? A refractometer will only give you your starting gravity, after pitching yeast a refractometer requires correction. Your ferment could be either complete or much closer to complete than you think. Does it taste sweet? An SG of 1.050 will be very sweet.
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by doomy » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:27 am

Thank you, yes i tasted the wash and its clean but still sweet.

I used manufacturer recommendation of 3-6g/10l DAP. Seems close to the recipe of 1 tsp/27l

Even with correction factor its still to high (1.036)

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Durhommer » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:14 am

This is a good wash but notorious for ph crash try and add oyster shell and repitch ec1118 yeast if your ph is good then maybe your yeast is eaten all it can and you need a stronger one (ec1118)champagne yeast works. I noticed when I make this wash if I keep it about 1060 for sg it goes quicker than when I try and make ita higher graviy
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by doomy » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:00 am

Ok thanks Durhommer,

Here are the measurements from today:

30.12
3: 13.5 (1.042)
2: 13.2 (1.041)
1: 13.9 (1.045)

31.12
3: 12.8
2: 12.5
1: 13.4

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Durhommer » Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:05 am

I ordered some yeast nutrient so I can make more of this wash. It seems to be my go to
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by doomy » Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:15 am

Here are some fresh measurements, the yeast is still working, just super slow.

01.01 3:12.3 2:11.5 1:13.2
03.01 3:11.7 2:10.2 1:12.4
05.01 3:10.9 2: 9.2 1:11.7
08.01 3:10.1 2:8.2 1:10.8
12.01 3:9.4 2:7.6 1: 9.9
23.01 3:7.2 2:5.9 1:7.2

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Durhommer » Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:37 am

20210120_163421.jpg

My latest wineos wash
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