uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

[rad14701]

Odin, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the starches were to get converted after several generations... Yeast do produce small amounts of enzymes as a byproduct that helps the conversion process but it takes time for them to accumulate into numbers needed to provide a noticeable increase in %ABV of the resulting wash... In fact this may be one reason why the recipe starts hitting its sweet spot in the 3rd to 4th generation range...

I don't recall where I read about this trait that yeast has but I stumbled across it in just the past week or so while doing some yeast research form one reason or another... I'm always led off on a tangent and end up doing unintended research... Too bad I never take notes...

[Odin]

... but great that you share your findings with others! Thanx Rad. Your suggestion explaines a lot to me: why I have a pretty high ABV, why so much of my corn is spend on this run (1/3rd!!!) and why it just kept on (very slowly) bubbling even when readings of some mash I took out told me ".99" more than once.

Of to bed ... Odin.

[the pure drop]

Quick question here gents, I have about 2.5 gallons of doublings of ujssm that I evidently allowed about 250 ml of heads into and I dont like the way it tastes at all. I dont want to pitch it down the sink I want to run it again. But I'm afraid that if I do run it again I will lose most of the flavor. I have 2 five gallon batches ready to run now. I have a small 3.5 gal spirit still. If I run about 1.5 gal of the double distilled ujssm with 1 gallon of the ujssm mash which I have ready to run... Will that give me the same or similar flavor profile as if it was distilled only twice and had not botched up my heads cut?

[blind drunk]

I have a small 3.5 gal spirit still. If I run about 1.5 gal of the double distilled ujssm with 1 gallon of the ujssm mash which I have ready to run... Will that give me the same or similar flavor profile as if it was distilled only twice and had not botched up my heads cut?

Hard to say if it will have the exact flavor profile but it will be good. It may even have more flavor than a double distilled.

[the pure drop]

Thanks blind drunk....i hope that will be the case. If so, I'll maybe have to make that a regular practice lol. Well see, I'm going to run it tonight, take detailed notes and post what I come up with.

[mash rookie]

MR,

I hear you! Even getting an increadible amount of taste, when flute distilling it at 92%, right? Well, great to know. I will just double distill, than. Making cuts on the second one.

I did cover the bed with another 10 liters of water to keep the yeast happy. I did not yet replace the corn. Thought of doing that in another way: use the backset (hot) to dissolve sugar, then put in the corn. Heats up the corn a bit, cools down the backset with sugar a bit.

If my method is wrong, please let me know!

Odin.

Odin, still no reason to re invent the wheel. I have read many of your posts. You are a smart guy. Follow the recipe. It works. One simple adjustment is to adjust the wonderful backset PH with calcium carbonate as it becomes more acidic. Hang on for the ride. You will make wonderful stuff.

MR

[Odin]

Just found me the Calcium Carbonate in a drug store just a mile away. They use it on pool water, in general, no? I will buy some this weekend!

This morning I started sour mash no 4. Added backset, etc. to yeast bed, gave it some air. Expect it to start bubbling away in no time!

Odin.

[likkerluvver]

Odin,
I use Calcium Chloride in my pool and spa to increase water hardness (Soft water here - Calcium carbonate is too low).
I use Sodium Carbonate to increase water pH.

What pool chemical were you planning to use?

I recently paid $4.40US on eBay for 5lbs (2.27Kg) of Calcium Carbonate powder specifically for raising pH when using 100% of my backset in a wash.

[Odin]

LL,

Calcium carbonate in order to prevent my UJSSM mash from getting to "sour". The drugstore had it. The owner told me it is used to controll PH in swimming pools. The guy probably thinks I have a swimming pool

Odin.

PS: Prices are about the same here in NL as what you payed. Thanx for the info.

[likkerluvver]

Best to avoid Sodium Carbonate which is what my pH Up contains.

I'd do a double-check on the Pool pH Up label before buying.

[Odin]

Good advice, LL!

I will look on the discription (?) on the package. If it states anything else than Calcium Carbonate it is a no go!

The weekeind is allmost starting over here! Cannot wait to start stilling me some vodka this evening!

Odin.

[Dan Call]

This is a good flexible working mash, allowing for lots of variables. If you use yeast nutrients such as DAP, and a little more
yeast, the mash can be saved from most mistakes.

Just one beef.....this is not whiskey, it's corn liquor. Whiskey is all grain, period. I wish newbies could more clearly understand that
because too many see this recipe, and many others involving sugar, as whiskey....it's not.

[likkerluvver]

..... Just one beef.....this is not whiskey, it's corn liquor. Whiskey is all grain, period. I wish newbies could more clearly understand that
because too many see this recipe, and many others involving sugar, as whiskey....it's not.

Correct - according to government decree for commercial whiskey in most (if not all) countries.

What I choose to call my likker in the privacy of my own home is up to me though. My friends all agree that my sour mash corn sugar whiskey beats most regular commercial stuff hands down for taste and hangover-free drinking. They choose to call it LL's Corn Whiskey - and I'm not about to stop them - even though I have explained the difference between it and AG.

Prior to producing my own, the only whiskey I ever drank was spelled without the "e", and different peat levels were selected to match my mood. I started UJSSM because that is what everyone suggested as a great way to start using grains. I did not expect to enjoy the product so much.

I recently enjoyed a bottle of Evan Williams Single Barrel. Though the flavour of corn is not as strong as in my product, that 10 year aging in large barrels was very evident in its smoothness and some subtle flavours and undertones. Do I prefer it to my own? - Yes and no. For rare occasions of slow sipping straight, at room temp I might even buy more.

For drinking on the rocks or with any mix, mine is better.

I must start producing more than my friends and I are drinking so I can lay down a decent quantity for aging. I've been checking barrels out.

Any suggestions for a source of the best North American White Oak Charred Barrels for my UJSSM at a decent price? Might even use one or two for my AG whiskey too.

[Odin]

LL,

I think it was Mash Rookie who suggested using Jack Daniels Smoking Chips. Used barrels, cut up for putting on your BBQ or in your booz! Now I am an UJSSM Newbie, but I bought 3 liters of these chips and boy do they smell nice! Cannot wayt for gen 4 to get ready. I will use them on that!

Odin.

[likkerluvver]

Hey Odin,

Those JD smoking chips would be good if re-toasted to get a fresh heavy char on all surfaces. Even though their heavy char is somewhat spent, they would probably work quite well as is. I've been charring smoker chunks of hickory, oak, and apple in aluminum foil and inside metal cans in my BBQ. I've also been using heavy toast American white oak chips. Within 2 weeks they make quite a contribution to taste and colour.

I'm very pleased with the results BUT there's always room for improvement. I definitely see a barrel or five in my future.

[frozenthunderbolt]

Hey Odin,

Those JD smoking chips would be good if re-toasted to get a fresh heavy char on all surfaces. Even though their heavy char is somewhat spent, they would probably work quite well as is. I've been charring smoker chunks of hickory, oak, and apple in aluminum foil and inside metal cans in my BBQ. I've also been using heavy toast American white oak chips. Within 2 weeks they make quite a contribution to taste and colour.

I'm very pleased with the results BUT there's always room for improvement. I definitely see a barrel or five in my future.

Hey LL let me know how you get on with the hickory - the only booze i've ever had go funky on me so far was a rum that had toasted hickory chips as a part of the woods that went in it (also had manuka which is nice by itsself) - also tried distress aging it (more fool me - never again) but i'm curious as to other people's experiences with Hickory and if i should give it another go.
From its smell, i could immagine it going with corn shine better than the rum took it . . .

[likkerluvver]

Hey LL let me know how you get on with the hickory - the only booze i've ever had go funky on me so far was a rum that had toasted hickory chips as a part of the woods that went in it (also had manuka which is nice by itsself) - also tried distress aging it (more fool me - never again) but i'm curious as to other people's experiences with Hickory and if i should give it another go.
From its smell, i could immagine it going with corn shine better than the rum took it . . .

I have toasted the hickory and the apple but I haven't yet used the hickory. I'm in the middle of major renovation work and I've mislaid them in the confusion. I can't even get to the package to do some more.

I used some charred apple with my heavy toast chips from Brewhaus in my collection from a spirit run of my 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation UJSSM a while back and they seemed to work out fine. I need to do some more serious investigation with latest generations (which have developed far more character) before I can give you a good evaluation/advice.

Right now I'm taking no risks with UJSSM, sweetfeed, and rum washes I'm trying to keep up/ahead with - I'm using 5gm light, 10gm medium, and 85gm heavy toast chips from Brewhaus in maybe 2 usg. That works well and needs nothing more than filtering through a tea strainer to remove them. I fill a carboy about half full and add my chips. Twice or more times per day I remove the stopper and shake and swirl all hell out of it before replacing the stopper. Two weeks makes an incredible difference and a month or two puts it ahead of all but the very best/expensive commercial stuff I've ever tasted. Rarely makes it beyond 6 months.

Thanks for the heads-up on distress aging. Others have had good results with some methods. Worth trying only on small quantities maybe? - Then scaling up if/when you find a method that works for you. I'll stick to my method until things return to normal around here.

[mash rookie]

Odin,
DO NOT char the JD chips. Use them as they are. They work. If you try to char them it will ruin the flavor as they are moist from chopped up whiskey barrels. Like burning sugar. If you feel you need to char something start with fresh chips, staves or raw white oak. Dont over think this. I speak from experience.

I have used hickory. Good, Interesting flavor, but it makes your booze taste like BBQ sauce. I ended up using the Hickory soaked booze to make a killer BBQ sauce.

MR

[likkerluvver]

That's interesting MR. I was under the impression that while some scrape the inside of their barrel, others do not before re-charring them. I hadn't heard of re-charring causing a burning sugar taste.

I thought those JD chips would only be charred on one of their surfaces - maybe only 15% of their total surface. AND, having been used, their effectiveness would be reduced. I have always used the lighter toasts very sparingly. I use 10% light toast, 10% medium toast, 80% heavy toast. It smooths and colours the likker very nicely within 2 weeks, and really well within 4 weeks. But I'm not saying there isn't a better combination.

Apple worked quite well for me in early generations of UJSSM - maybe it's a good job I can't locate the hickory.

I will try a variety of these woods for myself in small samples - don't want to waste the precious liquid. Thanks for the heads-up.

[Odin]

MR, LL,

I am not going to char the JD Chips! Already understood, that you shouldn't do that with these, but the extra clarification is great, of course.

Thans, Odin.

[Odin]

Hi guys!

Just did my strip run on generation 4 and all the things you have been saying about improvements in taste and smell are more than true! I took a small taste of the middle run and it was as if I was drinking a different drink as compared to gen 1, 2 or 3. Corn likker? You bet! I guess I am finally there: over that magical thrash hold and into UJSSM paradise. "Brings tears to a grown man's eyes", just to parafrase MuleKicker here. And - hey - I didn't even do my spirit run yet!?

Thanx to everybody contributing to my efforts. Especially, of cours, Uncle Jesse. Sh*t! This man deserves a Nobel Price!

Odin.

[Gotlikker]

Just my .02 worth.
I have been using sugar maple chips for some time in my grilling, the chips are placed into a stainless steel box. I then use a combination of JD's oak chips, which have been placed into the oven at 400 degrees F for 30 minutes, and my charred sugar maple chips (I chose 400 degrees F because I seem to remember that number was used in the making of Maker's Mark 46). I use 3 liter glass jugs from Carlo Rossi wines (It is my civic duty to enjoy the wine and satisfy my cardiologist at the same time). The color produced by this combination is very dark and the flavors imparted are superb. I use this same wood mix for both my corn liquor and my rum and have had some great results. When the JD chips are being toasted the entire house has a wonderful aroma. I have recently found a source for both sugar maple chips and oak chips in 2# bags (200 cu. in.) that are quite reasonable, even when shipping is added in.
My corn liquor recipe is based on UJSSM. I use, for 7 gals of mash: 5# of cracked corn, 1# of 6 row barley (ground in a coffee grinder), 8# of sugar, 1 1/4 gals of backset, Baker & Crosby distillers yeast, and yeast nutrients and ground water from a well. I place the corn AND the barley into a tied off pillow case which aids in an easier racking of the wort.
I put batch # 8 into the wine jugs in mid July and it is VERY promising as of today (I find Quality Control to be one of the more enjoyable perks of my hobby).

[Odin]

Hi Gotlicker,

Yeah, quality control is not the worst part of this hobby. Started making some tests on my mix of gen 3, 4 & 5, that have been on JD chips for only a few weeks. Already great tasting stuff! Needs a good filtering though, because without it is ... hot, very hot to the tongue. Guess it is the charcoal on the chips. Now after two filtrations, diluting from 60% to 45%, and giving the drink 2 days to rest, I must say: impressive! And it will be on wood for a few weeks longer, so taste is still about to develop further.

On my gen 6, that is just ready fermenting, I used a little less sugar (3 kilo's instead of 3.2 kilo's) and addes some lightly peated & malted barley. Went into the coffee bean grinder first. Hope to add a bit more complexity like that. Also thinking about some millet for gen 7 or 8. Well, tonight is going to be stripping run for gen 6. Hope to get over some notes on how the barley influences taste soon.

One thing I did on gen 5 already, was to use a higher percentage of backset. From 25% to 65%. Gave me a taste I really like & added greatly to the mixes of gen 3 & 4 that were made at around 25/30%. I think I will up my backset to a 50% in general. With some calcium carbonate to correct PH ...

Odin.

[Titus-a-fishus]

Hey Gents
As anyone who has read this thread would know I am having .... "Issues" with getting flavour out of this recipe.
For the life of me I can't see what I am doing wrong.
Am getting wonderful neutral but no corn flavour.

So decided to stop for awhile, as I have plenty of neutral.
That was at least a month.... maybe two ago.

Last week I remembered that there was still 8kg of sugar and 4kg of cracked corn left over from my fermenting.
The corn was taking up space in a small freeze so decide to ferment up a new UJSSM.
This time just for fun I'd do it different.
Out with the 50ltr ss keg that I had foolishly removed the top from.
Sit it on the gas burner and part fill with water.
Light er up and wait until it starts to steam a bit, plenty of heat in the water.
So in goes the sugar and give it a good stir until it dissolved.
In goes the corn and wait for the lot to cool down a bit.

While waiting for it too cool down before adding the extra water, I made up a yeast starter.
Previous to this all I ever did was pitch the dry yeast onto the top of the sugar wash and let it run its course.
This time mixed up the starter, sugar warm water 4 tablespoons dry yeast and waited an hour ... damn that stuff foams up well

In goes the cool water up to the top of the keg.....
39 degrees in goes the yeast starter.

Here's the reason for the post.
This ferment ran hot.... well warm.
It fermented dry in five days and was warmer than the room it was in.
The yeast was working so hard it generated it's own heat.

Ran it through the still yesterday and now have a hint of corn.... finally.
Perhaps this is part of the problem I have been having
Hence passing this on to you fellas.
If you use a yeast started instead of pitching the dry yeast, it ferments faster and seems to draw out flavour that carries over to the spirit.

Did up another ferment yesterday using the same method and the first generation yeast and a new yeast starter....
Same hot/warm ferment going on.

Yes I know many of you always use a starter .... but some out there like me probably don't
I will be from now on though.

Cheers
TAF

[Odin]

I never use a yeast starter, Titus. See no need for them, since I get over enough tast & ferment dry in a week max on UJSSM.

[Titus-a-fishus]

I never use a yeast starter, Titus. See no need for them, since I get over enough tast & ferment dry in a week max on UJSSM.

Braggard!!!

If it's all working for you why would you use a starter?..

On the other hand.
The post was and is for those that may be having problems with getting taste..... few and far between, but there is at least one other that has posted on this thread.
So to anyone in the future that has the same "issue" as I am .... well they may just be helped by the yeast starter as I have been.
It isn't the only thing I will have to change by the looks, but at least it is a start.


TAF

[Odin]

Congrats TAF,

Very happy it finally starts to work out for you! One thing I would like to share on the topic of more or less taste (I have no experience in "no taste at all" with this recipe), is adding yeast nutrients. I did that on one fermentation. Just added them with the sugar to the backset, and started up a new fermentation. I had the impression the results of that run had less taste. Now I did some thinking about it and came up with the following question. Could it be that the presence of nutrients outside of the corn package & backset make it easier for the yeast to do their thing without, well, how do you say this, looking for the nutrients in the cracked corn? I don't think yeast actually does much of "looking around for" anything, but I always like to find an explanation for what happened.

Maybe I am restating something already mentioned before (I read all 45+ pages on UJSSM, but it has been a while back): do you use yeast supplements in this recipe? Also interested in finding out if anybody has similar experiences with adding extra nutrients to this recipe.

Odin.

[frozenthunderbolt]

Hey Odin - I just ran my 1st gen the other day and it is powerfully corny. I used a teaspoon of DAP and 3 multi-vitamin tabs in it. Good flavor.

[Odin]

Then it cannot be the supplements causing a "no taste disaster"...

[mash rookie]

Excessive nutrients particularly on high ABV washes will cause off flavors as the yeast mutate. There is no reason for the addition of them to UJSSM. I use a yeast starter on every wash. Wake up yeast in warm water, Pitch half, add wash to the remaining and pitch that the folowing day. I have never had a wash stall. (at least not for that reason)

Flavor equals Quality of corn, Amount of backset used, Distillation method.

Three suggested methods to increase flavor are to Boil some of the corn, Use more backset and pot still or detune your reflux column so you are not stripping all the congeners. Additionally, after 3-4 generations the tails become quite tasty. They do not cause hangovers. Use more tails in your final blend.

My most recent run through my flute, I ran as slow as possible for my flute.
Being quite busy catching up on work after a long vacation, I forgot to blend soon and left my jars open for almost a week.

The results were quite distinctive. What before was late heads- early hearts was good enough to blend. The hearts were great. What was late tails, (the only tails you get with a flute) was nasty. Blending decisions were clear cut. (pun intended)
MR