uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by likkerluvver »

Titus-a-fishus wrote:Hey Gents
As anyone who has read this thread would know I am having .... "Issues" with getting flavour out of this recipe.
For the life of me I can't see what I am doing wrong.
Am getting wonderful neutral but no corn flavour.....
Hey TAF,
Though I could taste the corn in the UJSSM recipe, it was rather too weak for my liking, I decided to adapt the “Traditional Sour-Mash Whiskey” recipe in “Making Pure Corn Whiskey” (chapter 7).
This gives 46L (12usg) – ideal for one keg strip run or 2 runs in my 8usg kettle.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 11&t=23847


LL
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Odin »

LL,

I read your post. Now I follow the original way UJSSM was promoted. Apart from using more backset (which I also do), what would be the main differences in your approach? Is it the water treatment, or the extra ... you put in?

Looking forward to gettin even more flavour over!

Odin.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by likkerluvver »

Hey Odin,

I don’t want to go too much off-topic on the UJSSM forum, so I answered this here:

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p6926093

:thumbup:


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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by frozenthunderbolt »

mash rookie wrote: Three suggested methods to increase flavor are to Boil some of the corn, Use more backset and pot still or detune your reflux column so you are not stripping all the congeners. Additionally, after 3-4 generations the tails become quite tasty. They do not cause hangovers. Use more tails in your final blend.
MR
This would account for my STRONG flavour - I slow cooked my corn for 12 hours in my crock pot on low before creating my wash.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Odin »

Frozen,

Do you mean by slow cooking you actually boil the corn for 12 hours? Or do you let it rest in hot water that is heated only slightly so it stays hot, but does not boil? Thinking of applying this method at least for the replacement cracked corn, to up the taste some more.

On the fermentation I did right now, I added some cracked corn that I put in tin foil in the oven 20 minutes at 180 degrees centigrade. Gave a nice smokey almost peaty nose & mouth feel.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by frozenthunderbolt »

Odin wrote:Frozen,

Do you mean by slow cooking you actually boil the corn for 12 hours? Or do you let it rest in hot water that is heated only slightly so it stays hot, but does not boil? Thinking of applying this method at least for the replacement cracked corn, to up the taste some more.

On the fermentation I did right now, I added some cracked corn that I put in tin foil in the oven 20 minutes at 180 degrees centigrade. Gave a nice smokey almost peaty nose & mouth feel.

Odin.
Yep - It doesn't boil Odin, but is at a low cooking temperature - the very gentlest of simmers if that for 12 hours.
I've got to give your smoky corn a go - once i've done 6-8 gens of the original recipe anyways :mrgreen:
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Odin »

Frozen,

I have got some 500 grams of cracked corn on a simmer right now. For the corn in the oven option: I did not do that for the whole lot of corn. Just some 100 grams as part of the replacement of corn you do after each generation. Gives lots of taste!

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Odin »

UJSSM-fans,

Just an update on some things I did different on my last gen of UJSSM. Slow cooked the corn for hours before adding it to the fermenter, replacing about half of the old uncooked cracked corn. Grinded some 600 grams of peated & malted barley and added that too. Used about 30% backset. Fermentation took a week as usual. Stripping run gave an "Oh, oh" experience. Came out a bit warm (usual) but did not show much taste. But now after stripping: more corn taste with the barley nicely shining thru. More taste by cooking the corn and (maybe) grinding the barley. Also, I could dive much deeper into tails. That is to say: hearts just went on for ever. Collected about 15 to 20% more hearts than usual. Even then, it didn't start to smell like wet cardboard yet ...

Interesting! This seems to work better for me!

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Gamblor »

Greets all

This is my first attempt at UJSSM, I followed the recipe exactly on my first generation, using instant bakers yeast and what the feed supplier said was cracked corn (but the bag has 'cracked maize' written on it - is this different?)

I am using the basic potstill I posted about in the "My First" forum, it has a 10L boiler (which can handle 8L strip runs).

My first generation UJSSM was bland and forgettable. My second generation UJSSM I mistakenly added a whole new 3.2kg cracked maize to the fermenter. I used 25% backset, but just threw the white sugar straight into the fermenter. I distilled as soon as it stopped fermenting (4 days) nto three jars, based on taste from the distill (heads, hearts, tails). It was low yield and a disaster, the result had a stinging chemical burn, and horrible taste. Even aging on chips for a week has done nothing to improve it.

My third generation has come out alot better. I used 30% backset, and dissolved the sugar and 250gm of rye flour into it while hot. I removed 1kg of spent cracked maize. It fermented for 4 days, I let it settle for three after that before distilling. I racked off 24L of wash. I performed three strip runs of 8L each, and my low wines were 7.5L of 40% ABV exactly without watering down.

I distilled my spirit run into 18 jars and ceramic containers with approx 150-200ml in each, then let them air for 48 hours (covered with napkins secured around with elastic) before taste testing each jar with a few drops of water mixed with a few drops from each jar. I was surprised to find most were palatable, and I only returned the first three heads jars, and two mid (?) tail jars (which were downright nasty) to the feints container. Most of the tails jars had flavor, or at least were not unpleasant. Final drinkable yield was a bit over 3L of 65% ABV.

The result is palatable enough to drink especially mixed (slightly sweet/sour with some complex flavors) - I asked my missus to try it, and she said it was not unpleasant, though slightly harsh (but she doesn't drink these days) - but still little corn flavor.

I am aging about 1.5L of 65% ABV now on 20grams of JD chips I got from the brew shop (is this about the right amount? I want to age about 2 months, in time for a christmas party).

For my fourth generation (fermenting now) I have removed spent corn, only used about 20% backset but truly inverted the sugar in it this time (its a syrup) while also boiling about 500gm of frozen sweet corn in it for 90 minutes until the corn now looks odd, bright yellow husks, light brown caramelized centres.

Is it likely this will give the corn flavor I am seeking, or are there other steps I can take?

p.s my 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation ferments take 4 days or so, and are quite strong.

Regards G
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by WalkingWolf »

Gamblor wrote:
p.s my 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation ferments take 4 days or so, and are quite strong.

Regards G
Congratulations on a successful startup. Sounds like your own your way. Just a note on your "ps" above:

Once a healthy yeast bed has been established these ferments will go off in 4 days if the temp stays up. As the generations progress the pH will drop (become acidic). As the pH goes down the ferment will go slower and slower. You can continue to maintain these fermentation rates if you correct your pH. Once I have 4-5 generations run my go to mix is 2 tablespoonsful of Calcium Carbonate, 2 tablespoonsful DAP, a pinch of epsom salt and 1 crushed B-vitamin. Dump this in the (7.5 gallon) fermenter with the 25% backset and sugar water and you were up and running.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by frozenthunderbolt »

Gamblor wrote: Is it likely this will give the corn flavor I am seeking, or are there other steps I can take?
Get a big electric crock pot, dump 2 cups of dry cracked corn into it. cover with as much water as you can fit in on top. cook it overnight on the low setting. Should bring out the corn flavor bigtime
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by sizzlnchef 1 »

For your first run it is best to take very conservative cuts. I recommend very generic whiskey cuts, say 80% down to 70%. As your skills improve you will be able to go deeper into your cuts, tasting periodically for the off-taste of the tails. Once you learn to identify the off-tastes of the heads and tails you will be able to make proper cuts without the use of a hydrometer, a big step toward becoming a competent distiller.
I have a few questions about the cuts? I really don't understand this step. If someone can tell me where on here or explain in further detail it would be greatly appreciated.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

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I do all my own stunts
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by sizzlnchef 1 »

:!: :!: :!: :!: :!: Thanks :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :D :D :D :D :D
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by waylyn »

Continuing with the recipe very happy with the results but it does take a long time to ferment, I'm talking about one month? a lot of yeast build up maybe that's the reason but my end result is fantastic after aging in oak barrels :D
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by WalkingWolf »

waylyn wrote:Continuing with the recipe very happy with the results but it does take a long time to ferment, I'm talking about one month? a lot of yeast build up maybe that's the reason but my end result is fantastic after aging in oak barrels :D
Check your pH. I'll bet if you raise your pH back into the 6 range your ferments will speed back up. When I'm in a cycle with a healthy yeast bed this recipe will ferment out in 4 days -- over and over and over again.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by waylyn »

Was thinking that, what do you use to increase the ph?
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by WalkingWolf »

I use 2 tablespoons Calcium Carbonate on every batch. I ferment in a 7.5 gallon fermenter and this yields right at 5 gallons of wash each time. With the cal/carb I also add 2 tablespoons of DAP, a pinch of epsom salt and 1 crushed B-complex vitamin.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by waylyn »

Thanks for the info, I will see if I can get this in the UK was reading you can use pool ph increaser but not to sure I have a pool and the chemicals but a little dubious about using it :(
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by WalkingWolf »

A pool supply store is where I got the Calcium Carbonate. Be careful not to get the Sodium Carbonate as the yeast do not like the addition of sodium and this will build up over time. The DAP (diammonium phosphate) can be purchased from home brew suppliers.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

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Cheers :D
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Odin »

Gambler,

Cooking your cracked corn will give you more taste. But be carefull. It burns easily. Lot's of water, slow on heat. Also up you backset% to add more taste. Up to 50% works fine.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Gamblor »

Thanks to Odin and others for extra info, and also to UJ for the original recipe. Never would have in my wildest dreams considered moonshining as being a midlife hobby.

Three days ago I finished my fourth generation UJSSM. The finished ferment was 24 litres of wash, with 25% backset. I truly inverted the sugar before ferment, and boiled frozen corn into it as well. Three stripping runs, and final distillation of 2.8L split into 17 x 150-200ml lots (I don't measure exactly)

I let it air for two days, then sampled each jar and completed the final blend last night - It was not easy, since the mother in law was visiting from overseas, and I had to hurry doing it by dim torchlight in a cramped garden shed.

If I could trouble the masters with a few more questions..

While blending, I only found 3 'offensive heads' jar (stinging/burning) and only one 'offensive tails' jar. I tossed all these into feints, and also the last jar because it was practically water.

So I had a 24L wash -> 7.5L low wines -> 2.8L raw product spread over 17 little jars, processed 900ml of that into feints, for a final yield of 1.9L (forgot to test the ABV, if its similiar to generation 3 it will be 65% ABV)

Does this yield sound correct? It feels like I kept far too much product and compromised taste - but I tasted the white dog with water, and it mostly tasted warm and smooth, smoother than most bottom-mid shelf commercials I've tasted - and when mixed (as I usually drink it) it was quite good with no offensive flavors.

The other question I have - the mother in law surprise visit has thrown a spanner in the works of my UJSSM ferments, I have had to pack my fermenter and gear into the garden shed (its Spring here, cool nights down to 16 degrees celsius, hot days up to 30 degrees celsius) I have covered the lees with 6L of water. But my main issue is the backset - I have it in a large enamel coated cast iron dutch oven, covered with the cast iron lid, but not especially sealed - and I have no room to freeze it.

Is this going to be OK in the shed for a week, in the temperature ranges I gave here?

(I also have a 45L finished ferment of birdwatchers in this shed that I started two weeks ago, which I hope is going to last another 5 days until the MOL clears out and I can deal with it)

Last question - on cooking some cracked corn for the next generation - I have a ceramic electric slow cooker. Would cooking the corn (in water) overnight in this be OK? Would it be cooked enough in a slow cooker to make a difference in taste?

- G
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by frozenthunderbolt »

Gamblor wrote: Last question - on cooking some cracked corn for the next generation - I have a ceramic electric slow cooker. Would cooking the corn (in water) overnight in this be OK? Would it be cooked enough in a slow cooker to make a difference in taste?
- G
This is precisely what i do - it works great. Just leave LOTS (say 4/5 of the pot) for expansion of the corn as it re hydrates and cooks.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Odin »

Gamblor,

You are fine. Slow cooking like Frozen says: that is the way to go. Your backset will start to ferment. It will become the UJSSM equivalent of a dunder pit in rum making. I already wanted to do that & see if a backset pit would improve UJSSM like a dunder pit improves rum. So ... just use it later on and let us know if you smell/taste any difference afterwards.

Your collection is okay. I collect 1/3 on stripping, so do you. Final collection of 2 liters at 60% equals 3 liters of 40%. Now, you probably put in around 3 to 3.5 kilo's of sugar on your 24 liter wash. A general rule of thumb is: for every kilo of sugar you get 1 liter of 40% abv drink in return. You are fine on collecting!

Feints ... beware! Well, just my experience. I had the same: more heads than tails. Gave me a screwed up feints run. All heads, then tail. Nothing nice in the middle. Someone suggested to me: run feints thru your fracionating column. That's what I will do next time. Feints allmost scr*wed up the first 12 liters of UJSSM I made!

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Gamblor »

Hi Odin

I accidentally forgot to recycle feints into my 4th generation UJSSM. ABV was down 10% from the last generation, but I found heads far less smeared into the hearts when cutting. I also noticed an unpleasant undertaste I had only subconsciously been aware of disappeared as well.

Doing more reading I noticed other posters mention constant recycling of heads into feints can be quite bad for quality of the liquor. Just wondering whats the best practice here for UJSSM, ditch all heads and use only tails as feints, or ditch early heads, keep late heads, or..some other option?

Also just wondering what ferments in the backset as I described it? I thought it comes out of the boiler after distillation sterile, acidic, stripped of all nutrients and oxygen. Although I don't have it sealed real well, I hope its acidity will deter any unwanted organisms from setting in. No yeast is within it (yet), and not sure what they would live on if they were.

I don't have a fractionating column, just a simple 10L potstill (soon to be 19L/5gal, got a nice new SS pot and SS bowl that match)

Thanks for all your patience with my incessant questions!

- G
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Odin »

Bring them on, Gamblor, those questions! I was where you are not too long ago. Looking for answers on this great recipe.

Now, I never put in feints in my next run. Just gives more smearing, bigger heads & tails fractions. I take them out, do a seperate run on them when I have enough. even that was not good at all. I got heads, more heads, more & more heads and then some tails. In the middle something that might be good, but not exceptional in any way. Mixing it in allmost ruined the entire batch of UJSSM. Took a lot of distressed ageing to get most of the heads out.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by the pure drop »

this last wash I did was the first generation of this batch. I have collected nearly 3 gallons of low wines, having stripped down to around 25% abv with the resulting low wines sitting at 45% abv. I have my second generations fermenting happily now and will be running it off this coming weekend. I don't have any feints to run with the second generation, so I don't expect the same yeild. However, I do expect to have enough for a 5 gallon spirit run after this next strip. I've done a few batches of UJSSM but never really payed attention to my take off rates / abv percents. Just collected it all and then did my spirit runs when I had enough saved up. But I'm trying to learn more and understand a bit more of what I'm doing...and how it ultimately affects my final product. For example, I never bothered checking my abv of my low wines before I did a spirit run, just put it all in the still and ran it. Now, I've noticed from reading that some like to water the low wines down to 40% before charging their stills and making their spirit run. I never thought of doing this before. My first reaction to that would be: "what's the point? Your trying to get the water out, not put more in". But if such venerables on this forum as pint and others do it, then there must be something to it. I just want to understand what diluting my low wines before running the stripping run will do to the final product. Also, I have been planning my spirit run to be 4 gallons low wines and 1 gallon of wash. This is something I have done in the past and have really enjoyed the results so I will continue with that. My final quandry is do I make all my low wines up first....following through to say 10 or 12 generations, then kill the wash and mix all the low wines together really well, then start my spirit runs from the mixed low wines, or can I just do a spirit run every time I have made enough low wines, then add my spirit runs to each successive spirit run to blend them? I assume the last idea would have the same effect as the first idea, but not sure. Anyway, that's what I've done in the past, just make a spirit run once I've collected enough low wines, then do more strips until enough low wines have collected, then spirit run again...so on and so forth. At that time, I was only distilling 5 gallons of wash per week and with my friend's demands and my own drinking, just could not keep enough around to actually age, until just recently. Now I've decided to up my output and distill 10 gallons of wash per week. Hopefully I can distill enough to start aging and have some sipping likker while I wait. I just have so many ideas, and there is a lot of info out here, as well as hints to simple processes that could make the final product better. My goal is to try to understand how some of the more "minor" tweaks can impact my final product. thanks in advance for any help here.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Bull Rider »

One of the reasons that the spirit run is diluted to an ABV of less than 40% is safety. Having 5-10 gallons of a flammable liquid over a propane burner or an electric heating element is something that should be avoided. Bringing down the ABV reduces the risk.

Another reason to start with an ABV of 35-40% for the second and final run is that your end ABV will be right about 65%, which is the preferred ABV for oaking and aging. If you final ABV is too high, you just have to dilute down the whitedog to hit the 62-65% target.

I think Miles had some posts on here that pertained to diluting your low wines to 30% or so for a cleaner spirit run, and better separation. The posts seemed to be pretty convincing, although I haven't tried it out on a run myself.


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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by mash rookie »

I think Miles had some posts on here that pertained to diluting your low wines to 30% or so for a cleaner spirit run, and better separation. The posts seemed to be pretty convincing, although I haven't tried it out on a run myself.
Diluting cleans things up well. If you read posts about running all feints you will note that guys dilute considerably before distilling. There is cloudy liquid left in the pot after distilling. ?? I do not pot still per-se but run a flute and have observed this as well.

On UJSSM you can recycle your feints into your next run but only a few times until the heads become quite concentrated. I will add the heads back in every other batch. After fourth or fifth generation I keep all tails in my final blend. It adds a lot of taste.

Watch a few videos about commercial guys doing large batch runs of all grain. You will see that they make a heads cut then collect everything down to 10%. There is heavy flavor is in the tails. That is where their grain bill shows off.

Here is a link for Calcium Carbonate food grade. Cheap and fast delivery.

http://www.dudadiesel.com


MR
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