uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Refined and tested recipes for all manner of distilled spirits.

Moderator: Site Moderator

the pure drop
Novice
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:34 pm
Location: South Korea

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by the pure drop »

Good evening all. I sort of started this over in the UJSSM topic, but the direction I am going with this made me feel that it was getting away from UJSSM-specific arena. I'm talking about diluting a strip run in preperation for making my spirit run. I run a simple pot still with a bit more than a 5 gallon capacity. Small fries for most of you here, but I used the material I had available. Back on topic...in the past I have just run my washes down until I couldn't taste anymore discernable alcohol. I assume I ran it down to maybe 20-25 percent. I would collect up enough of these low wines then charge my still for a spirit run. If I had feints, I'd add them to my wash for my strip. If I had extra wash left over, I'd add it to my spirit run to try to squeeze out a bit more flavor. My base recipe is UJSSM. It's my go-to. I love it because it recycles everything except the sugar...and I'm trying to stay within a "hobbyist" budget, and also because I'm very limited to whats locally available, and most importantly...I think it makes a damn fine likker. But I believe that my half-assed methods leave a lot to be desired, and I think that I can get much more out of this recipe as well as any other future recipes by trying to refine my process. Part of the refinement has centered around the idea of a combination of diluting my stripping runs to achieve a predicted/ expected final abv. % as well as the addition of a percentage of wash to low wines prior to spirit run.

According to Harry's paper on dilution in preperation for a spirit run:
"Armed with a spirit hydrometer and a dilution chart or an adjustment formula, and this phase diagram plot information, he can then dilute the final still-charge to the correct ethanol/water starting ratio. Thus the final product will be at the desired ethanol strength, and the water fraction will be made up of distilled water. This eliminates the turbidity often associated with adding water after distillation and before kegging, thus a superior quality spirit is produced."


and:
"A stillman using a potstill can work backwards from the phase diagram, select a desired final product strength, map it as a point on the vapour curve, then draw in the lines to arrive at a starting still-charge strength for the final spirit run."


Usint the ideas from the two quoted paragraphs above, I should decide what %abv I want to put my likker on oak at. Then, using the phase diagram, work my way backwards towards what my low wines should be diluted to in order to end up at or around what I want my final abv to be. And instead of diluting with water, I plan to dilute with un-stilled wash (for the additional flavor) no more than a gallon (for my 5 gallon spirit run), then the rest (if required to dilute further) would be with normal water. Then run my strip.

That all makes theoretical sense. But here is where my question start to come in. I am on my (lost count) batch of UJSSM...just stripped my first 10 gallon wash (first generation of this particular itteration) down to low wines. I collected all the way down to around 25% abv. My resulting low wines are sitting at 45% abv. Now, I have read that many people here like to put their UJSSM on oak at between 60-70%abv. Based on the guidance from Harry's paper and using the phase diagram which I found at http://distillapedia.org/index.php?title=Pot_still" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow I can determine that if I want my stripping run to have a total/ final abv of say 65% abv to put on oak, in order not to have to cut the final spirit with water prior to putting it on oak, I would have to dilute my stripped low wines back down to nearly 16-18%! Is this right? Will all the extra effort to get that added water back out during the spirit run really pay off in terms of quality/ flavor of final spirit? I notice from my reading that folks here and there seem to be dilluting their stripped low wines down to about 40%. But this would (in theory, using the above phase diagram and personal experience) result in spirit somewhere between 75% to 80%, which would need to be diluted back down to between 60-70% for aging on oak. According to Harry's paper, it seems to be better for quality to not need to dilute prior to oaking. Does anyone have any experience/ advice on this? If diluting my low wines down to around 18% prior to my spirit run will make a superior final product, then I'll take a crack at it...but that seems like an awful lot of effort/ utility energies used up to get all that water back out. If anyone can tell me that this is the practice they use with their pot still to get the best product they can get out of this recipe, then please pitch in. Any thought on this is appreciated. Just a simple home shiner trying to make the best corn-flavored sugarhead I can make with what I've got at hand.
The Pure Drop
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Odin »

TPD,

What I do to get closer to ageing & wooding abv's, is to add UJSSM wash to my low wines. Thus lowering them from around 39% (result of my stripping run) to around 25 to 30%. This way, the second distillation will be closer to the abv outcome you want and you don't need to put water before oaking.

I call this "distilling 1.5", because part is distilled twice, and part only once. Gives extra flavour, because you do not need to water down.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
the pure drop
Novice
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:34 pm
Location: South Korea

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by the pure drop »

Thanks odin. Thats pretty much what I intended to do with left over wash and my low wines, as I explained in the beginning of my posI'm just curious if anyone has spirit run low wines at full stripped strength, then at diluted strength, and noticed difference in quality of finished product.
The Pure Drop
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Odin »

There is a difference! If you run it at full strength you get a product with less taste, as compared to "distilling 1.5".

Odin
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
clacker
Novice
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:53 am
Location: West Aus

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by clacker »

I've let a 4th gen UJSSM sit in the fermentor for maybe 2 months now... around 22C ambient over that.

I haven't opened it but the airlock smell is not right... not vinegar but not the usual smell either.

Can I drain the liquid and re-use the corn or have I ruined the whole thing?
2" 1.5M Old Dog copper VM with SS 1/2" ball valve and 50L keg with 2200W element + triac controller

My old CM "neutral" was like the Leningrad T-34. Rough, unrefined and often rolled straight off the production line and into battle...
olddog
retired
Posts: 3618
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:16 pm
Location: WEST OZ

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by olddog »

Just run it, as long as it has been sealed it should be OK.


OD
OLD DOG LEARNING NEW TRICKS ......
clacker
Novice
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:53 am
Location: West Aus

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by clacker »

Thanks OD!

Capping the VM and controlling the heat has yielded some awesome bourbon, never had such active weekends since offering it to my friends.

I've got serious supply/time issues so two weeks on the toasted/char oak is all it gets at the moment but good enough for me and the heathens!
2" 1.5M Old Dog copper VM with SS 1/2" ball valve and 50L keg with 2200W element + triac controller

My old CM "neutral" was like the Leningrad T-34. Rough, unrefined and often rolled straight off the production line and into battle...
stinkypete
Novice
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:13 am

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by stinkypete »

hi guys , great recipie very quick , im running my second 2 x 20l wash at the moment through a 1.5 metre bokka iv left 4 scrubbers in first run and this run also , my first run was a slow spirit run and i split it up in to smaller lots , will i be able to blend this run with some of my previous run and mature with oak chips without carbon filtering ? i dont want to remove any flavour by putting through carbon . cheers Stinky
blind drunk
retired
Posts: 4848
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:59 am

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by blind drunk »

I don't run a boka and I don't carbon filter but I do blend and back blend till my heart's content. It's all part of the fun. Go for it. Good luck.
I do all my own stunts
Brud
Novice
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:19 am

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Brud »

Ok I have 4th gen UJSSM on oak for 8 months, it was about 60% ABV on the oak. I now have it cut to about 40% and drinking it on Ice. I have to say this is one of the nicest drinks I have ever had, even up there with some of the single malts. I had trouble with the ferment when I got to the 4th gen, I think it was the PH dropping when I added the backset, and I had given up. But seeing as how good it turned out, I am definitely going to try this again on my next batch.
Yee ha. :D :D :D
stinkypete
Novice
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:13 am

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by stinkypete »

hi guys in regard to oak chips i have medium taost white american oak chips , its quite fine chips , is 10 to 15 gms per litre of 60 abv ok ? , is distress aging ok with this or am i better off sticking with oak sticks . cheers

stinky
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Odin »

Thicker oak is better. Longer maturation is better. But if you are in a hurry 15 grams of chips per liter and some distress ageing will help you. Ever thought about JD Oaking Chips? They are bigger than normal chips ...

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Gamblor
Novice
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:30 pm

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Gamblor »

Greets all

I was forced by a visit from the mother in law from overseas to halt my UJSSM fermentation for two weeks.

I kept my yeast bed alive by covering it with water, and I stored about 4.5 litres of inert/sterile backset (the stuff left in a potstill after a stripping run) in an enameled cast iron pot. Both stored in a garden shed, with temperatures between 16 degrees celsius (night) and 32 degrees celsius (daytime, the shed was like an oven)

I have now fermented and distilled a 24L UJSSM wash (6th generation) that had this backset in it.

I am stunned to find the product I got from this run was....superb. I have only ever had 'good but not great' results from UJSSM so far, but the run with the stored/aged backset (dunder? not up on the terminology) was on a whole new level, even just white with no aging. The flavor was incredible. I had distilled into 17x200ml jars, and I used all but the first and last jar and it was still incredibly smooth.

It was so good, most of it is going to get consumed white (though 1 litre of it went into a pot with oak aging 4th/5th gen mix)

Thoroughly recommend the aging of the backset, it added whole new dimensions to the final product.

- G

EDIT: Just wanted to say, the 1/3rd to 1/4th rule seems to work a treat. On stripping runs out of 24L wash, I will get 5.4 litres of low wines, which with 300ml of tails from the last run makes 5.7L of low wines which two runs now has been naturally at 40% with no dilution. Then on the spirit run I am getting 3L or so final product (after getting rid of 200ml foreshots, and before blending). After blending, it comes out at 2.4L at exactly @65%. I haven't had to dilute at all; I might just be lucky that the ratios are working exactly out for me.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Odin »

Gamblor,

Congrats! You may have answered a question I put up some weeks ago. "Cannot a UJSSM benefit from a rum/aged dunder approach?" It seems it can!

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
frozenthunderbolt
Distiller
Posts: 1417
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:01 am
Location: North island of New Zealand

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by frozenthunderbolt »

Odin wrote:Gamblor,

Congrats! You may have answered a question I put up some weeks ago. "Cannot a UJSSM benefit from a rum/aged dunder approach?" It seems it can!

Odin.
I may have to try this - Ive had gen 5 waiting to strip for some time now. I've got about andother 3 generations worth of corn in my shed so might put the whole UJSSMW on hold for a month or so and age me up some dunder before i start my 6th gen and see what i can get. . . i'm hoping to run one giant spirit run probably 3 gal of all 9 generations in one hit to get the most consistant and interesting flavour accross the board, thoughts?
Where has all the rum gone? . . .

Every new member should read this before doing anything else:
sizzlnchef 1
Novice
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:04 pm

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by sizzlnchef 1 »

Really active wash here. 4 gallon it is coming out the airlock and top of bucket is bulging should I open it to release pressure or let it alone? Please help quick!!!!
Dnderhead
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 13666
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Dnderhead »

release the pressur...if you dont you could have a mess
wendellbaker
Novice
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:38 pm
Location: Eastern Pa

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by wendellbaker »

Is it possible to not have tails in a run by design or accident or is it more likely that my nose isn't properly trained to recognize them?

Background: I am running a pot still UJSSM. After running 5 or 6 stripping runs, I collected enough low wines to fill my 15 gallon boiler to 10 gallons. On the stripping runs, I collected down to roughly 20%. The abv of the low wines in the still was 32% so I did not water it down. I collected 8 pints, four on either side of the 9 liters of what i calculated should be hearts for a total of 3.5 gallons. At 1am and 45 degrees out, I was still collecting at 70% and threw in the towel. I tested the wash left over in the still out of curiosity and it was 20% abv. I know I left a lot there; it's a learning process and I learned to plan a whole 12 hours for a spirit run and not 7-8. The second pint (80% abv) and the last pint (70%abv) smell nearly exactly the same. Is it possible that in the stripping runs I did not collect deep enough and therefore inadvertently reduced the amount of tails that would come through in a spirit run? Is this a theoretical possibility or do tails exist no matter what?
I'm not satisfied, and that's exactly why I'm so optimistic."
-Wendell Baker
Dnderhead
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 13666
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Dnderhead »

the tales are still in the boiler
Rusty_Anvil
Novice
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:25 pm

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Rusty_Anvil »

My first go at UJSSM has been fermenting for 3 weeks today! The temp is just over 20C.
Theres nothing better than a great meal, a fine bottle of whisky and a bad girl!
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Odin »

Maybe applying some heat will speed things up?
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Rusty_Anvil
Novice
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:25 pm

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Rusty_Anvil »

I found a mini heater and now the room is sitting at 29C. thats not too warm i hope.
Theres nothing better than a great meal, a fine bottle of whisky and a bad girl!
Dnderhead
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 13666
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Dnderhead »

"sitting at 29C. thats not too warm i hope"'
that will do..
Samohon
retired
Posts: 3432
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:22 am
Location: Somewhere in the UK...

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Samohon »

Rusty_Anvil wrote:I found a mini heater and now the room is sitting at 29C. thats not too warm i hope.
To warm, bring the heat down to around 25C. My ujssm usually sits at around 25C.

I keep saying this, but as soon as the yeast is pitched, you should wrap the FB in an old sleeping bag or something.
Fermentation generates heat, one should try to keep the heat inside the FB contained...
I live in a cold country, summer temps here are 20C to 30C, winter temps can go to -20C... Never had any problems...

Hope it helps...
♦♦ Samohon ♦♦

Beginners should visit The New Distillers Reading Lounge and the Safety and Related Issues among others...
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Odin »

@Frozen,

A little late in responding. As I understand you correctly, you want to spirit run multiple gens of UJSSM at once. I think it will be fine. First gens do not have too much taste and will benefit from being distilled together with later gens. On the other hand ... the taste of the laste gens of UJSSM might suffer a bit from being mixed with the "lesser quality" first & second generation.

Now, what is wisedom? :shifty:

@Sam,

I do mine at 28 degrees nowadays. Seems to give me a bit more flavour than room temperature of around 21 degrees centigrade ...

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Samohon
retired
Posts: 3432
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:22 am
Location: Somewhere in the UK...

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Samohon »

@Odin

I very rerely keep the first 2 gens of UJSSM, instead I consign them to the low-wines vodka jar.
I keep all gens from then on, when I have enough for a spirit run I add 17L of UJ low-wines to 20L of UJ wash to help carry the flavours over.
I then run this slowly through my pot still consigning any feigns to the vodka low-wines jar. Works for me mate...

Depending on the yeast pitched, 30C is pushing the temps barrier IMO. I like the yeast to give off a decent amount alc and not have to work hard for it... This is even more so, when fermenting an AG (all grain). Its very easy to have the deadly esters raise their head, this only confuses the stiller to overcut the product...
Guess thats what makes the hobby so great, no 2 distillers follow exactly the same method.

Offtopic:
Got myself some Special K today., :thumbup: but I'll post everything on your SK thread Odin...
♦♦ Samohon ♦♦

Beginners should visit The New Distillers Reading Lounge and the Safety and Related Issues among others...
Dnderhead
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 13666
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Dnderhead »

id say esters can be a good thing in whisky its part of the over all profile..
if it taste "yeasty" then you need a different yeast.a good yeast will produce
fruity or enhance the "malty" flavors..all the distilleries have their own
"secret" yeast just for this reason.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Odin »

Sam,

I do the same: adding wash to the stripping results before the spirit run. Adds greatly to taste.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Rusty_Anvil
Novice
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:25 pm

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Rusty_Anvil »

Thanks for the tip Samohon. I was also wondering about the smell. It has a very vinagery odour. I have tasted it and its definatly sour. I know it "sour mash" but this is my first ferment so i have added no backset yet. What is it supposed to taste like!?
Theres nothing better than a great meal, a fine bottle of whisky and a bad girl!
Fastill
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 898
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:28 pm
Location: Where we drink more beer than you!

Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Fastill »

Rusty_Anvil wrote:Thanks for the tip Samohon. I was also wondering about the smell. It has a very vinagery odour. I have tasted it and its definatly sour. I know it "sour mash" but this is my first ferment so i have added no backset yet. What is it supposed to taste like!?
Sour
A.D.D. and HD don't go together. This hobby takes time and dedication to learn and do it right and safe.
Fill the pool before you jump in head first!
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=52975
Post Reply