uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by HDNB » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:28 pm

rough guide?
fores 1%
heads 20%
hearts 60-70%
tails the rest

based on available absolute alcohol. (if you have 8% wash of 100L, then you got 8 L of absolute alcohol. ya gotta do you goesintas with heads at say 75%, hearts from 57-75% tails below 57% (for instance...)

or the better way - collect in separate vessels, air out at least 24 hours in an area without much air movement, taste/smell, feel and make some choices.

btw, the first method you described but didn't do would be 1.5x distilled, the second way you did do is twice distilled or strip/spirit, neither of them are "wrong" but they are different, so try them both to see what you like. i like 1.5x with corn because it gives a robust grain-forward flavour....but 2x is nice too, it gives a more refined whiskey that will likely have a broader appeal with friends...because there is no accounting for taste. (with my friends anyway...let's face it, look who they chose for a friend in the first place.)
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by DBCFlash » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:29 pm

So I've been saving the "extra" backset that didn't go back into the fermenter because I just couldn't see pouring it down the drain, but I really didn't know of any good way to use it. After doing some reading I think I have a good plan. I will add it to the still to dilute my wash before I run it. I'm hoping it will lower the proof of my heads and increase the flavor across the run. My heads have been coming in well over 120 proof and that just ain't good whiskey. Too hot! If I can bring those heads down below 100 I think I'll be making something better.
Is this a feasible idea? Bad idea?
I'll try it on my next UJSSM run and report my results. This will be my 6th generation.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by NZChris » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:43 pm

DBCFlash wrote:So I've been saving the "extra" backset that didn't go back into the fermenter because I just couldn't see pouring it down the drain, but I really didn't know of any good way to use it. After doing some reading I think I have a good plan. I will add it to the still to dilute my wash before I run it. I'm hoping it will lower the proof of my heads and increase the flavor across the run. My heads have been coming in well over 120 proof and that just ain't good whiskey. Too hot! If I can bring those heads down below 100 I think I'll be making something better.
Is this a feasible idea? Bad idea?
I'll try it on my next UJSSM run and report my results. This will be my 6th generation.
A typical barrel proof target is around 125. If your heads start below that, you can forget aging at 125.
Plenty of us run until the total low wines are 60 proof, or lower, so that no dilution is needed. My final choice of blend from the spirit run is usually just over 125.
My extra backset gets poured hot onto the weeds.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by 49er » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:59 am

Hi guys. I have a question about UJSSM with malted barley, which I've been running alongside my regular UJSSM.
It's a 70/30 mix and I'm on the third generation, but......with my regular UJSSM, it's easy to see the difference between the spent corn and the fresh corn, but with the barley I'm finding it nearly impossible! To begin with, the barley floats on the surface, then sinks during fermentation, and lies on top of the corn, but when I scrape the barley off, I'm presented with fresh, yellow corn, as if no corn has actually been used! What am I doing wrong, or not doing at all?
Second thing is, does all the barley get used up in one fermentation, or am I wasting money by tossing it every time?
Thanks guys... 8)

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by joeymac » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:51 am

If I were unable to tell, I suppose I'd just skim off 25% of whetever amount you have then replace them... and then after adding water, backset, sugar and a good stirring I'd use a strainer to scoop out any new floaters.

I can see my corn very obviously and I usually end up scooping out around 20-25% of the corn.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by 49er » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:28 am

Thanks joeymac, that's what I'm sort of doing, but 'cos the all the barley sits on top of the corn, I have to remove that first before I get to the corn, which is nice and yellow.......may I direct you to my second question? :problem:

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by joeymac » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:07 am

Doesn't the corn and barley get all mixed up when you stir? Or does the barley just always end up on top after the ebullition ends?
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by 49er » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:06 am

I can stir it to hell and back, but it separates, floats on the top during the ferment, then sinks and covers the corn...... :thumbdown:

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by joeymac » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:49 am

Perhaps the barley is all spent then and all needs replaced. If it's malted barley, it has the enzymes to convert starch to sugar. Maybe it just takes a few days ay 80F instead of a few hours at 148-158F. Many chemical reactions can take place at lower than ideal temperatures - they do so a lot more slowly... perhaps enzymes can behave like this. I don't know anything about the possibility of starch conversion at low temperatures.

If you take any, what is your OG and FG readings? Does your SG drop agree with the amount of sugar added and your potential acohol from that sugar?
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by 49er » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:23 am

My SG is around the 1064 mark, and finishes at about 0.94 ish on average, so all seems to be well in that respect. Basically, I'm trying to find someone who has done a corn/barley wash, and find out how they deal with the problem of the barley covering the corn at the end.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by joeymac » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:15 am

I'm doing steel cut oats and corn right now. I have much of the same problems you are. After I rack out all the liquid, the corn and oats are somewhat mixed throughout but there's definately bit more oats in upper layers and a bit more corn in the lower layers. In my 7.8 gal buckets, the damp drained grain comes up to the 2 gallon mark. For all corn UJSSM, it's easy to see the spent gray corn and replace it. But with oats, the oats are the same color as spent corn so it's a grey & yellow mish mash everywhere without any way to easily differentiate grains. I kind scoop and mix everything all together so it's evenly mixed and then remove 25 % of it. Then I replace the removed grain with a 50/50 mix of corn and oats. After I top off the fermenter with water, sugar, backset and a good stir I skim off any residual floating grains with a strainer before sealing her back up.

I'm sure I don't get everything that's "spent" but oh well... UJSSM is supposed to be simple so I'm keeping it simple.

ALSO... Damp grains take up more space after they swell than new grains. If you remove a certain amount of swelled damp grain, the dry grain replacement should be LESS. For example, if you pull 6 scoops of spent damp grain out and replace with 6 scoops of dry grain, then you are increasing your corn volume each generation and reducing space available for liquid wash... slowly changing your recipe and ratios ever generation. My dry 7LB of cracked corn fills the bucket to the 1.3 gallon line in my fermenter. After a ferment, the damp drained grains are at the 2 gallon line. This is a ratio of about 1.5:1 meaning that for every 3 scoops of damp grain removed you should replace with 2 scoops dry grain. Otherwise, with equal dry grain replacement, you'll notice your grain level rising each generation.
"Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks" - God (Isaiah 5:22)
So evidently, God wants us to drink our whiskeys single barrel and our Bourbons neat.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by NZChris » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:56 am

I don't believe that the spent corn migrates to the top. Why there is grey corn on the top will be a for a different reason, so I take no notice and scoop out a third of everything at random.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Rick Martin » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:40 pm

I recently had the pleasure of reading this link and 2 things might help you:
One member didn't replace or add any grain. He just added water and sugar. But he also tossed everything after 3 rounds.
Another member would add his spent grain, from making beer, to UJSSM. I have no idea how many rounds he did then but it was at least used twice.

These posts are some were in these 121 pages. I hope this helps.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by raptor402 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:30 am

Hello, everyone.

I just made a UJSSM using malted barley. I know exactly what you are talking about with the spent grain removal. From my experience with it, I did ten generations and tossed it all out. I started a new one with fresh corn and malted barley. I used a frozen backset that I saved from like generation five. From my experience with using different corn. Meaning cracked feed corn from different stores is that sometime it does not always gets spent and floats. I just remove a portion and go from there. I didn't like what the barley did to the wash. I used a blender to crack it and after five days it wasn't clear. I ran it dirty. Not all of your grain will float to the top. Yah the proportion of water to grain and how much you use and it also expands makes it a little tricky. Your first generation requires approximately 1/2 gallon more water for your wash.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by joeymac » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:03 am

Right on. My notes on grain expansion (specifically Producer's Pride Cracked Corn from Tractor Supply Store), is showing about a 3:2 wet-to-dry volume ratio. Meaning For every 3 cups/scoops of damp corn I remove from the fermenter, I need to add 2 of the same size cups/scoops of dry fresh cracked corn and that corn will swell to the removed volume. I've done a couple generations with steel cut oats (a bit less messy than rolled/flaked oats) and volumetric expansion is very similar - at least not different enough to change my measurement numbers anyways when dealing with a corn/oat mix.

But your right on that first generation... I get about 1/2 gallon less per bucket due to the grains sucking up water. On a double bucket ferment if I don't modify the proportions for all new grains, I get about 9 gallons of wash the first generation but I expect about 10 gallons on following generations 2+.For generations 2 and beyond, with 7LB corn and 7.5LB sugar, my fermenter gets topped to the 6.25 gallon mark... this takes nearly 5 gallons of water. And I get nearly all of that 4.75-5 gallons back out of the fermenter because after racking off the cleared liquid, I just jam my racking cane to the bottom edge of the bucket and pull all the liquid out of the corn bed. That last gallon of wash is pretty cloudy from some corn bits and trub. But it Runs all the same though through the still.
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So evidently, God wants us to drink our whiskeys single barrel and our Bourbons neat.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by BDF » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:33 pm

Making this my first recipe since I finished my cleaning runs on my new still and gotten into stilling on my own accord rather than as a still hand for friends.

Slightly modified the original recipe for 5 gallon batch:

-7 lbs corn
-4 lbs sugar (down from 7lbs in an attempt to reduce the 'hot' taste from sugar heads)
-1 tbsp distiller's yeast
-Added 5 tsp Fermax yeast nutrient (I understand in subsequent generations, nutrients get added back in with backset, but I had none for my first gen)
-Added health pinch epsom salt
-Added handful of crushed oyster shells
-Top to 5 gallons

From the reading I've done here, the 'hot' bite from sugar heads comes both from either stressed yeast due to lack of nutrients, low pH, too high of abv, and/or using refined sugar at all. So I tried to address each to some degree with the tweaks. In my homebrewing I would never expect a good result from sugar-high, but nutrient deficient juices (like apple cider) without adding additional nutrients so I think the same principle would apply. If it means I have to do more runs or increase my batch size for reduce or eliminate the sugar bite, it's more than worth it.

Ended up at 1.058 OG, or 7.61% potential

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by jb-texshine » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:42 pm

The recipe is fine and bite free as is. Sugar is in correct proportions.run it as written until you understand fermentation and distillation. That way if you have a problem we can troubleshoot it easier.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by NZChris » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:37 pm

Or you could rename it BDF's slightly more difficult sour mash method.

UJSSM isn't made of juice, or apples, so there is no reason to assume that it is similarly short of nutrients.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by BDF » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:34 pm

jb-texshine wrote:The recipe is fine and bite free as is. Sugar is in correct proportions.run it as written until you understand fermentation and distillation. That way if you have a problem we can troubleshoot it easier.
Jbt
Good point about limiting variations for future trouble shooting. I just really really dislike the bite of heads, and in past sugar washes I've run with friends the low the abv the wash the smoother the hearts, and the one all grain we ran was like silk. I'd rather start conservative, less sugar, more nutrients, and slowly see if I can push the abv afterwards.

This post in particular in the curated version of this thread resonated with me, and is one of the main reasons I cut back on the sugar: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p7228339

As for why I added additional nutrients, yeah I was shooting from the hip and ended up introducing more variables :problem:

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by NZChris » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:58 pm

BDF wrote:As for why I added additional nutrients, yeah I was shooting from the hip and ended up introducing more variables :problem:
It's only the first generation and I think of that purely as making backset for the next. As long as you don't try to get clever and outsmart Uncle Jesse, it will only be a 1/4 of the first spirit run.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by BDF » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:31 am

Well its bubbling away regardless. Probably not as vigorous as most are used to but my house is kept at around 68°F. Wrapped a blanket around it and will be keeping and eye on the airlock bubbles.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Barndog » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:46 am

So... It has been a while since I posted anything but I have been busy making several generations of UJSMM pretty much right on with the original recipe. The goal was to make enough good stuff to fill a 5liter barrel which I just completed. I did 2 5gal pails at a time in a 70 degree house so the ferments took a bit but came out very good. I did twice distilled through my 5gal alembic pot still. It is amazing how the flavor starts to shine after the 3rd-4th generation. As many others have said, great recipe! Now to wait for the charred oak to do it's thing.

Thanks all!

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Rick Martin » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:22 am

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by WTD » Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:02 pm

I have my gen 3 bubbling away now of this recipe. i added 2 tins of LME and a few kg of barley on top of the 9kg corn in a 70l fermenter for gen 3. tastes nice :D

plan to run gen 3 through my bubbler for a whisky and hoping this will create enough flavour carry over on a gen 3 to make it through the 4 plates as the first 2 came out nuetral as expected.

What im wondering from other UJ stillers with bubblers is if i should run 3 plates for a good product on my Gen 3 or go 4 plates considering the extra LME and barley i put in?

there is about 9kg corn, 2.1kg barley whole grain, 1 tin wheat malt extract and 1 tin caramalt extract (both 1.5kg tins) with about 60l of water to make it to the 70 fill line and aiming for about 10% wash. i also have 4L @50% of feints from gen 2.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by joeymac » Mon May 01, 2017 7:41 am

WTD wrote:I have my gen 3 bubbling away now of this recipe. i added 2 tins of LME and a few kg of barley on top of the 9kg corn in a 70l fermenter for gen 3. tastes nice :D

plan to run gen 3 through my bubbler for a whisky and hoping this will create enough flavour carry over on a gen 3 to make it through the 4 plates as the first 2 came out nuetral as expected.

What im wondering from other UJ stillers with bubblers is if i should run 3 plates for a good product on my Gen 3 or go 4 plates considering the extra LME and barley i put in?

there is about 9kg corn, 2.1kg barley whole grain, 1 tin wheat malt extract and 1 tin caramalt extract (both 1.5kg tins) with about 60l of water to make it to the 70 fill line and aiming for about 10% wash. i also have 4L @50% of feints from gen 2.

Cheers
WTD
Depending on what you're ABV oaking at, you might be best to aim for the number of plates that puts your final cut blends only slightly above the target aging ABV. That way minimal dilution is necessary
"Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks" - God (Isaiah 5:22)
So evidently, God wants us to drink our whiskeys single barrel and our Bourbons neat.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by BDF » Wed May 03, 2017 5:45 pm

Stripped my first gen today, also my first non-cleaning/non-sac run on my new still, got ~2 gallons of low wines from ~6/7 gal. Collected until output read nearly 5 proof. Started up my second gen with the backset, and this time with the amount of sugar listed in the first post, and a scoop of corn to replace what was removed.

Can't wait to have enough to do a spirit run.

Edit: Checked it this morning and holy hell, it's taken off like nothing I've seen. Like 3-4 bubbles a second out the air lock.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by WTD » Sat May 06, 2017 7:27 pm

joeymac wrote:
WTD wrote:I have my gen 3 bubbling away now of this recipe. i added 2 tins of LME and a few kg of barley on top of the 9kg corn in a 70l fermenter for gen 3. tastes nice :D

plan to run gen 3 through my bubbler for a whisky and hoping this will create enough flavour carry over on a gen 3 to make it through the 4 plates as the first 2 came out nuetral as expected.

What im wondering from other UJ stillers with bubblers is if i should run 3 plates for a good product on my Gen 3 or go 4 plates considering the extra LME and barley i put in?

there is about 9kg corn, 2.1kg barley whole grain, 1 tin wheat malt extract and 1 tin caramalt extract (both 1.5kg tins) with about 60l of water to make it to the 70 fill line and aiming for about 10% wash. i also have 4L @50% of feints from gen 2.

Cheers
WTD
Depending on what you're ABV oaking at, you might be best to aim for the number of plates that puts your final cut blends only slightly above the target aging ABV. That way minimal dilution is necessary
did a run through 3 plates at 2 - 2.5l/h and hearts cut with a tad tails was at 85.5% and aging at 67%. can taste it a bit. gen 4 is bubbling away now with 2 more cans of LME and 5kg sugar plus added and more corn to replace the 41L i took out for stilling. also got a few kg of barley. grain beds also about 30L in a 70L fermenter.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Pikey » Sun May 07, 2017 3:02 am

WTD wrote:I have my gen 3 bubbling away now of this recipe. i added 2 tins of LME and a few kg of barley on top of the 9kg corn in a 70l fermenter for gen 3. tastes nice :D ....................

.............did a run through 3 plates at 2 - 2.5l/h and hearts cut with a tad tails was at 85.5% and aging at 67%. can taste it a bit. gen 4 is bubbling away now with 2 more cans of LME and 5kg sugar plus added and more corn to replace the 41L i took out for stilling. also got a few kg of barley. grain beds also about 30L in a 70L fermenter.
Why are you busting a gut - trying to overpower apparatus designed to remove tastes, by putting more and more taste in at the beginning ? :(

My first ever run was a "Sour mash" and without ever messing it about, I got all the flavour I could ask for by running my kit in "Pot mode" - Nowadays, I find I am actually Reducing the ingredients in some washes, to get the flavour strengths I want. :shock:

If you want flavour, use kit which is meant to let it through :)

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by bentstick » Sun May 07, 2017 7:11 am

He has one! And taste is subjective! Tomatoe tomato
It is what you make it

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Pikey » Sun May 07, 2017 8:27 am

bentstick wrote:He has one! And taste is subjective! Tomatoe tomato
He also seems to have :

" a 2" Hybrid pot/reflux still."

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