Rough Moonshine

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marath
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Rough Moonshine

Post by marath »

Hi forum
By mistake I :lol: put my thread in wrong place. So moderators closed it. I still need advices, if possible. This was the main talk:
marath wrote:Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:01 pm by marath » Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:15 pm
Well here goes again then. I didn't write before because I had 5 litres of very tasty moonshine and I've left the rough 3 litres sitting there so far. But the tasty 5 litres are gone. :-) I distilled moonshine based on sugar mash, corn flour, water and yeast. The first 5 litres were made with mash, which only gave about 500 to 600 ml for every 9 litres of mash. Then we increased the sugar a little and started to take about 1 litre for every 9 litres of mash. The point is that the 3 litres we made with this mash had a very alcoholic smell and a very rough taste. Smells a lot of ethyl alcohol. As we make a 9 litre mash, I always throw away the first 100ml of distillate. And when the alcohol drops to 42 or 40 vol, we stop distilling. On average, either the first 5 litres of distillate I made, which tasted very well, or the 3 litres that smell more of alcohol and taste rough in the mouth, have around 48 to 49 vol. The question is: will these 3 litres that seem rough to me have any problems or can they be consumed? If you do a second distillation of these 3 litres, can the flavour get better? If yes, how many ml should I throw away at the beginning of the second distillation? Thanks
marath wrote:Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:01 pm Subject: Hi there
Twisted Brick wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:29 pm Yes, a second distillation (spirit run) will 'polish' your first run's 'low wines' and after cuts leave you with a very tasty drink indeed. The proportions of grain to sugar are important, as the higher the grain, and lower the sugar, the deeper one can go into the first distillation, and the cleaner the result from the second distillation.

Check out the Uncle Jesse's Simple Sour Mash recipe in the Tried and True section. Simple to make and oh so good the more you make of it. Just follow the recipe as it is written.

If you conduct a stripping run and add your 3l of rough-tasting spirit to the ensuing spirit run, you will clean it up nicely. You can remove 100ml fores from the second run, or as some distillers do, just take 150-200ml from the spirit run only.

What cuts do you recommend for 3 litres that I have in this rough moonshine? Should I wast the firs 200ml, or just 100ml? Should I stop distilling at 40% vol alcool or 38?

Thanks a lot
So, to this second distilling that Twisted Brick advice What cuts do you recommend for 3 litres that I have in this rough moonshine? Should I wast the firs 200ml, or just 100ml? Should I stop distilling at 40% vol alcohol or 38?

Sorry about my poor English
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by Sporacle »

:D Hey Marath, TB was (I think) talking about doing another fermentation of a UJSSM stripping that and then adding your 3L back to the stripped UJSM and then doing a spirit run, The UJSM is in the tried and true section

This link may help with your cuts
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 0#p6801645
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by Stonecutter »

You need to make your cuts based on smell and taste. Run a little between your fingers and smell it and taste it. Go to the new distillers section and read up on cuts, there is tons of information available there and it’s crucial to get your head wrapped around it. Over time you’ll hopefully start to recognize the differences of what’s coming out of your still. Once you’ve learned how to make your cuts then you’ll be one step closer to a better product. Cheers and good luck!
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by MihiT »

marath wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:34 pm So, to this second distilling that Twisted Brick advice What cuts do you recommend for 3 litres that I have in this rough moonshine? Should I wast the firs 200ml, or just 100ml? Should I stop distilling at 40% vol alcohol or 38?

Sorry about my poor English
As above, Cut to taste.
Always discard foreshots, which I pick by smell and temperature, not a certain number of mls.
(and if in doubt, chuck it out)


As to how "deep" you go / when you tail-out, that is also a matter of taste.
Classic 'shine lore would say stop the run when the collected distillate will no longer catch on fire (testing a small sample away from the still!) Which is about your 40%. This would be considered "the hearts cut"

However, you can recover more alcohol (not so much flavour/cogener/fusels), some people go down to 10% in the distillate. It's diminishing-returns though, steadily more energy input required for lesser output.
marath
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by marath »

Thanks to you all.

I'm not English so sometimes is difficult to understand you. The UJSM I read about it an is more or less what I do. I've made 5 litres of tasty moonshine with It, but from a 9l mash I just get 500 or 600ml Moonshine so I put more sugar to have a higher brix :D and then I get this rough moonshine.

What I don't understand is what is a spirit run...Somewhere I can read about it to learn?

Thanks again
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by Saltbush Bill »

A "Spirit Run" is the last run , done after you strip the wash , using a "Stripping Run". The Stripping run allows you to get rid of excess water and other rubbish that you dont want or need in you boiler charge.
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=58100
Stripping...... The process of running low abv wash through a still with no head or tails cuts to remove alcohol that will be re-distilled.
Spirit Run The final distillation producing finished whiskey.
marath wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:23 pm but from a 9l mash I just get 500 or 600ml Moonshine so I put more sugar to have a higher brix :D and then I get this rough moonshine.
There is your other problem, a high abv wash will always make a rougher spirit, you need to keep it around 9% or 10% abv. at most.
The answer is to make more and bigger washes.....strip those washes down, then do a spirit run with the low wines that you have made from the combined washes. In that way you are fitting more alcohol into your boiler at one time and will end up with a larger amount of good booze.
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by Archee72 »

Hi Marath

Maybe if you tell us what language you speak someone who also speaks it could PM you some advice?

Cheers Arch
marath
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by marath »

Portuguese.

I can understand English relatively well. The problem is technical language about distilling.

I just have a simple, traditional, 10l alembic https://www.copper-alembic.com/pt/alamb ... l-rebitado

I'll try do decrypt the lesson Saltbush Bill give to me. But ABV is always around 10% in fact. At least in my brix and alcohol meter.

Thanks to you all again
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by Corsaire »

It's simple really. Yeast turn sugar into alcohol, CO2 and flavour. But too much alcohol is poisonous to them. So the more you push them by adding more sugar the more stress they are under and make they start to make bad flavors, or a raw kind of flavor.

So if you want to make more spirit you need to make a bigger volume ferment of a reasonable abv.

Distilling your spirit 2x helps to get you even better flavour.

For a 10l still I'd fill probably no more than 7l. So 20 to 21l ferment will fill your boiler 3 times.

You want to double distill, so run these 3 first passes rather quick, collect everything until you are down to about 1/3 of your starting volume, so about 2 and a half liters. These are called stripping runs, they are sometimes referred to as first burn in portuguese I think. It's been a number of years since I've visited your country.

Combine the distillate from these 3 runs (so about 7 and a half l) and run them a second time. This time round you should make cuts, where you choose which part you keep. This is a spirit run, or second burn.

None of the numbers I gave are set in stone, so experiment to see what works best for you.
marath
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by marath »

Corsaire wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:17 am It's simple really. Yeast turn sugar into alcohol, CO2 and flavour. But too much alcohol is poisonous to them. So the more you push them by adding more sugar the more stress they are under and make they start to make bad flavors, or a raw kind of flavor.

So if you want to make more spirit you need to make a bigger volume ferment of a reasonable abv.

Distilling your spirit 2x helps to get you even better flavour.

For a 10l still I'd fill probably no more than 7l. So 20 to 21l ferment will fill your boiler 3 times.

You want to double distill, so run these 3 first passes rather quick, collect everything until you are down to about 1/3 of your starting volume, so about 2 and a half liters. These are called stripping runs, they are sometimes referred to as first burn in portuguese I think. It's been a number of years since I've visited your country.

Combine the distillate from these 3 runs (so about 7 and a half l) and run them a second time. This time round you should make cuts, where you choose which part you keep. This is a spirit run, or second burn.

None of the numbers I gave are set in stone, so experiment to see what works best for you.
Thanks a lot Corsaire, now I get it :-) . So I'll do it that way, and them I'll do another one and use my 3 litres of hearts but rough moosnhine, and maybe I can use more 4 litres I kept from tails, but tails that were all above 38 abv , in my country 38 % vol alcohol (so they are not very bad tails). Than I compare both :-)

The cuts I made I learn on youtube so for 8 litres I throw away 100ml. I don't really know if it's safe. But I drunk more than 5 litres with 48 or above abv, and it tastes good.

One more answer if I'm not abusing your good will: the 3 litres rough I have, are safe to drink? If they are maybe I can do a honey and lime liquor...I always dismiss an least 1,2% of distilled drink (exemple, for 10 litres mash i throw away 120ml distilled drink), and stop distilling when it drops below 42 abv.

Thanks to you all again
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by Corsaire »

I think it's safe. But probably not very good.
You keep a lot more than I would.
I think you need to make more booze, that's better than being greedy with what little you've made so far. You're never going to get a lot of good spirits in a small still, so keep that in mind and don't fall into the greed trap.

Step up your ujssm game, be less greedy with your cuts. With a small still you have to be constantly fermenting and distilling if you want a lot of good product.

Look up kiwistillers guide to cuts on this site. It will show you how to use your senses to see what's good to keep, instead of random numbers you got off YouTube. You don't even really need to measure anything, just smell and taste. Ultimately, that's the most important to get right. Members here who run reflux rigs get tails at 90+% abv, so you really cannot use abv numbers to base your cuts on.
Similarly, some ferments produce more heads than others, so using the same % of collected volume isn't smart.

I know it seems complicated, but we've all been there.
Good luck!
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by marath »

Yes, is complicated. Cuts on tails with 90 % vol alcohol I really can't understand. And cut just based on smell and taste is very hard to me. I love red wine and those I can taste and smell better. But in spirit drinks is difficult. For example all bottled whisky I taste until now is shit to me compared with my moonshine or with a Arbutus Brandy , https://www.portugalvineyards.com/en/60-arbutus-brandy . A whiskey from Ireland is more to my taste than any whisky.

But Ill keep reading and trying. Now I'm making a mash with only sugar, corn and water, whit a 15 brix and more or less 8 to 9 vol alcohol. I think mean while I'll distil the 3 litres rough with the 4 litres tails I have, more water to low below 40 abv, for safe distilling, has a learned here somewhere.

Thanks again
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by Saltbush Bill »

marath wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:08 pm And cut just based on smell and taste is very hard to me.
That is the ONLY way that you can do it , we all have had to learn , most of us without help. No point putting it off , the sooner you start the sooner you will learn and be good at it. Stop confusing your self with ABVs and temps dont even look at them.....use your nose and taste.
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Re: Rough Moonshine

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marath wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:08 pm But Ill keep reading and trying. Now I'm making a mash with only sugar, corn and water, whit a 15 brix and more or less 8 to 9 vol alcohol. I think mean while I'll distil the 3 litres rough with the 4 litres tails I have, more water to low below 40 abv, for safe distilling, has a learned here somewhere.
Good on you!

Making cuts seems daunting but it's not so bad. With a small boiler you should collect in reasonably small containers. You'll be amazed at how much difference there is in aroma over the run.

Irish whiskey has a generally more mellow character, that's why it's easy to get into. If you take your time on the cuts and resist the temptation to be greedy you'll end up with some mellow spirits.

Thanks for the link to the brandy. My brother's in Portugal right now, I'll ask if he can find a bottle to bring back.
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by marath »

I'm using this yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae https://www.pakmaya.com/en/consumer/yea ... -yeast-489 . I used to use 2g per litre of mash, so 20 litres 40 gr. However following the recipe you guys advise, e reduced it a lot. Now the mash is apparently fermenting in a very very low rate. Is it normal?
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by still_stirrin »

marath wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:21 pm… Now the mash is apparently fermenting in a very very low rate. Is it normal?
What’s the temperature? If you warm it up to 20*C, it should ferment quicker.

But, it may a actually be working, just that you can’t “see” the activity. How do you “know” it’s going slow….not by the airlock, right?
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by NZChris »

20*C is quite cold for that yeast.

I use 0.5g/l for the first generation and never have to add any more.
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by marath »

still_stirrin wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:12 pm
marath wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:21 pm… Now the mash is apparently fermenting in a very very low rate. Is it normal?
What’s the temperature? If you warm it up to 20*C, it should ferment quicker.

But, it may a actually be working, just that you can’t “see” the activity. How do you “know” it’s going slow….not by the airlock, right?
ss
:-) Yes I think its what you called airlock. I used to see the velocity of bubbles. But the belt to close my fermenter broke and now I only have one lid. So I open and see the activity. The room temperature now, in summer, is always above 24 degrees. I adapted a airlock to one of these pots I show you in the attached image.
https://cdn.custojusto.pt/api/v1/adimgs ... ?rule=play
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Re: Rough Moonshine

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Here I am again. I tried to do a spirit run. I put 1.5 lt of rough mooshine, 1.5 lt of kind of tails that I had kept (but always above 38 vol alcohol), and as the mixture was too strong, not to be risked in the distillation, I lowered the alcohol from 45 vol alcohol to 30 vol alcohol adding quality mineral water.

All these low wines had already had a 1.5% cut of the distillate in the striping run, so they should no longer have methanol. Furthermore, as I understand it, the fermentation of sugar with corn and water produces very little methanol. Still, the first 100ml of this spirit run, I threw away again.

The distillate began to come out at 86 vol alcohol. 400 ml left between 86vol and 81vol, I kept in pot 1. Then another 500ml came out between 81vol and 71vol, which I kept in pot 2. Then another 400ml came out between 71vol and 45vol, which I kept in pot 3, and finally in pot 4 I kept the tails of 42 vol up to 20 vol.

Being sure that the tails I'm going to throw away, they were just for me to try to learn the smell, what do the you, masters of distillation :) , recommend to me? Should I mix the pot 1 with the 2 and the 3? Or should I use only pot 2 and pot 3?

Thank you all.
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by NormandieStill »

You should proof down a sample from each pot to around 30% and smell and taste it. And next time you should save in smaller quantities and do the same so that your blend is based solely on taste, and not on abv or volume.
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by marath »

NormandieStill wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:01 am You should proof down a sample from each pot to around 30% and smell and taste it. And next time you should save in smaller quantities and do the same so that your blend is based solely on taste, and not on abv or volume.
Sorry I can't understand the meaning of proof down. Is it to put water in the distillate to make it weaker till 30 vol alcohol? The problem is that I can't distinguish what is good to use and what is not good, in this range.
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by Sporacle »

:D Get 4 glasses (same shape) get a teaspoon and bend it like a J so you can get a teaspoon of spirit out of the jars
Glass 1 take 1 teaspoon from each jar and add 4 teaspoons of water
Glass 2 take from jars 2, 3 and 4 and add 3 teaspoons of water
Glass 3 take from jars 2 and 3 and add 2 teaspoons of water
Basically make a small blend of various combinations of jars, let them sit for a while then taste
Just add the same amount of water to spirit for your blend.
The blend that tastes the best, combine those jars and away you go
This should help with making your cuts
Good.luck
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by AlWorms »

The more jars you use, the better you can pick out the good ones.

If you've only got 4 jars, there may not be much difference between them, and your good stuff is probably mixing in with bad stuff. 4 jars won't give much resolution.

If you're going down to 20% at the spout and getting about 2 Litres to that point, I'd collect into 20x 100ml jars.

I have a bigger boiler but on a sprit run of my Rum, I generally cut it into 22 to 30 jars (1L bottles in my case), but I often run down to 5 or 10% to keep my feints at less than 40%, but without the need to dilute with water. I dont do cuts on stripping runs, but the first 4 to 6 litres are generally what I deem foreshots and heads, and anything past about jar 22 is getting pretty tailsy - but I sometimes use small portions of them.

I keep ALL the leftovers to do an all feints run and do it roughly the same, but keep less jars - maybe jars 5 to 14, for example.

Which jars I keep are based purely off the advice above - dilute and taste/smell.
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Re: Rough Moonshine

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marath
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by marath »

:D Difficult to a noob. But I'll try. The water should be distillate water like the one for car batteries or mineral mountain water for human consume?

Pot number 4 is tails, I don't like the smell right now. Is the only one I smell different than others. So I'm not very motivated to use it any way. But I'll do as explained and try to taste de differences.

Thanks again for your help.
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by marath »

Very nice. Gone try to learn. I usually like the moonshine above 45 vol. Just like that Arbutus Brandy I post above. It usually is on 52 vol alcohol.
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Re: Rough Moonshine

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Use the water that you like best to proof down. Mountain spring water - if clean - would probably be my choice if i had it running into my shed easy enough.

Cheers!
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Re: Rough Moonshine

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marath wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:05 pm
Very nice. Gone try to learn. I usually like the moonshine above 45 vol. Just like that Arbutus Brandy I post above. It usually is on 52 vol alcohol.
Up to you how you prefer sipp’n it . :thumbup: , I like sipping mine a bit less .

But when comes time to cut and blend it ,lower proof opens it up and makes identifying the good from the bad more noticeable . ..or distigusishable.
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