Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

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homebrewer007
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by homebrewer007 »

My intent was not to offend you even in the least, in fact it was quite the opposite. My intention was to educate and provide insight into published data which has been researched for decades. Yes, I am a brewer, but fermentation is fermentation no matter how you look at. The same process is taking place scientifically no matter your end product.

The "name dropping" was simply citing my sources as I was asked to do in a prior post. The main point I was trying to make was simply data exsists that has been studied and proven in the industry. It is available to those who wish to study it and improve their craft. These are trusted professionals who have conducted the exact research surrounding this exact debate.

I am sure you are making a fine product, and the fact that you share your knowledge on a public forum for those who wish to learn is admirable. My argument was simply in the professional distillery industry (3 local artisan distilleries in my area) have offered their insight as well. They will only use quality ingredients designed for the industry because it is what produces the highest quality product, and yes they are cleaning up in whiskey comps. When you look at the effecancy and flavors derived from quality ingredients you will end up with a quality product. If you use poor quality ingredients no matter how solid your procedure is you are limited by what you've started with. The same would be said for food. I could have the best chicken catchatori recipe in the world but if my ingredients aren't the best I could get my hands on my dish would simply be nothing more than sustenance and the flavors would not pop according to the style of the dish.
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

Everyone of your posts since you came has had a cereal box in the frame. It must be the best equipment, or ingredient, because someone made it in a lab just for that reason, right? Kinda like professional store bought beef, or perfect looking store bought apples? When in reality, profit eventually succeeds basic quality, and then we're convinced it can't be done without a special tool?

Ever malted your own grain? Ever wonder why ripe bananas don't make a great bread?

I'm just suggesting that you suspend your pre conceived notions about fermenting for a little while and do more reading than talking.

Ever tasted whiskey that tasted straight cherries, with only corn and wheat? Only to trace it back to a crazy infection that you didn't calculate?

It's not beer. You look into a dunder thread yet? Go ahead. Bet you can't touch the complexity that you get in your rum.

I did enjoy the bit about yeast names and such. Thanks for that. But go a round on a table like this before you say that you can't make a "professional product" without the ingredients that can be purchased at your friendly neighborhood home brew shop ( which I am at every week spending tons of money). But my guy will tell you before anyone else to toast your own grain, make your own beer gun, and how to do for your self - without sacrificing quality.
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by homebrewer007 »

Absolutely as he should! That's a great shopkeep. I post DIY videos and articles on my shop FB page everyday. Everything from making your own stir plate to harvesting and slanting your own yeast cultures. The reality is though that no everyone in the hobby has either the time nor expertise to DIY projects. If you malt and toast your own grain that is fantastic. My only comment on that is I want to know where that grain came from, if it's organic, what the sulfide content is, and most importantly when it was harvested. I won't keep grain on the shelf that is over 6 months old even though all my grains are nitro purged and vacuum sealed as soon as they hit my floor. Same with all my yeast strains. They go directly into the fridge at 38* and get pulled at 4 months. My hops are treated the same. The point is I know where each one of my ingredients comes from and the whole seller is often times the producer/manufacturer.

Nothing to include our yeast strains are lab created. The yeast strains are cultures that were indigenous to the regions of the distilleries, breweries, and wineries from which they originated. They have simply been lab tested under many years of experimentation specifically for this industry. The professional craft brewery and craft distilling industries are massive and the research they pay for thankfully spills over becoming available for the hobbyist. There is not a pro brewer or pro distilled I have met who didn't get his start at home first. Surprisingly the professional industry still greatly supports the home brewers/distillers and will offer any information they can. I often have local brew masters, lab techs, and distillers into the shop and for club meetings to host classes to educate the hobiests. The biggest thing we need to remember is it's the exact same process we are doing just on a larger scale.

The yeasts have simply been cultured to gather the pure strain at 100 billion cells per vial and any wild cultures removed. There is no difference between the yeast artisan distillers and craft breweries use vs what is sitting in my fridge. In fact often times my local breweries and distilleries will call to place an order of yeast they use as a house strain. They just build huge starters and re-pitch up to 5 generations before taking another slant for QA. We all have the same whole seller and often times we will partner with our local distillery to order product at the same time to cut shipping costs.

As for detecting off flavors in whiskey, yes I'm not a fan of infected fermentations. As a BJCP judge I judge all food and beverages according to the style guidelines. I also spend a lot of time pairing foods with beer and whiskey and cigars and pipe tobacco with spirits. My typical go to for whiskey is scotch, and usually I drink Balblair or Deanston 12 unless I have a bottle from one of my local distilleries. My goal is to perfect a product which would be in style to be a clone to any of those just as my goal when brewing is to clone my favorite beer of style from the brewery that created it. I look at the water table of the region from where that facility is located as well as look at what their water treatment and mash PH is. From there I build my RO water to match that water table. That goes back to starting with the best quality ingredients I can possibly get.

As with DIY coffee roasting I am a huge advocate of home hop gardens and malting your own grains. Not many of my customers here in a larger city have that possibility though. If a customer were to approach me about malting his own grains I would recommend a book by John Palmer called "Malt" and give him the contact info of Briess or Wyermann since we know that is good quality grain grown to industry standards with a rigorous QA selection.
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by bilgriss »

007,

I think you missed SCD's point, which in essence IS his point.

Many of your points are accurate, particularly in the beer industry. I'm a long time (30+ yr) beer brewer, and I get it. But a good bit of your rhetoric is industry-standard practice, which plays out really well when your objective is standardization, predictability, repeatability and following guidelines. The essence of home distillation sort of starts with NOT following the guidelines, experimentation, going way outside of standard practice, and discovering the potential in those wayward jaunts.

I promise you, and many here with years' more experience than me will be able to corroborate, that sanitation and the best base malt will not be the single path to the best bourbon.

I do appreciate your input though, and in the spirit of lively discussion, I encourage you to keep the dialog going any time you have something to add.
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by Kabundokan »

I use turbo yeast for making vodka. Yes if used for rum or whiskey it will just taste like molten plastic added to your drink. I use clarifiers with liquid carbon. I get about 15% to 18% abv after fermentation.
Distillation wise, I use a reflux still that produces about 94% to 96% alc. in one run. Water it down to 45% and filter through carbon. I add glycerine to smoothen the end product. NOW don't ask why I add glycerine, it's my choice to use. Any one can do what ever they want to improve the smoothness and perfection accordingly to their tastebuds.

If you want a perfect product, (or near perfect) then don't do shortcuts, do it the proper way, which i know there are a lot of ways to do.

Turbo yeast is good for making high quantity mash but poor taste because of too much nutrients.
I even compared turbo yeast with another brand of turbo yeast. There is no difference but the cost. Turbo yeast is 7$cad and the other brand is 10$cad. They both perform the same. Ended same day. Both have the same abv at 18%.
The taste of both brands are the same after distillation.

If you really want a nice neutral alcohol then use what your mother use for making bread and as a nutrient, tomato paste.
After fermentation transfer the good stuff to another container and leave the bottom crap. DO NOT DISTILL YET. Wait for another day to let the crap settle to the bottom. DON'T LET GREED GET YOU, DON'T transfer the crap that settled down the bottom of the container.
In terms of distillation, use a reflux still with copper and steel rashigs packing in the column. Or distill it twise or 3 times. A thumper would do a good job as well.

I know someone probably covered my thoughts already but I'm here to remind anyone who use turbo yeast.

Don't look for simple answers from internet, sometimes you have to find the right answers by mistakes.
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by sugar glut »

I agree wit the OP that TY can make clean distillate. Just don't use as much as the directions recommend, and only go to a max of 15%. Any wash will pong, except for grapes, if you go too high. Vodka, schnapps, gin, and all botanicals demand a very clean wash. Ruskies use potatoes because they don't have sugar. Add a tablespoon, but no more, of black-strap. It contains the hard to get organic phosphates, and trace metals.

My Hindu neighbor uses his sacred palm jaggery. Ferments OK, but you've never smelled anything like it.

I can make a very good whisky just using sugar and TY. I get the complex phenols from malts (Beard's) and West Australian peat by high-% alcohol distilling separately. The essences are then added with the oak chip soakers. The method transfers only the lightest/shortest phenols which gives the best taste, IMHO.
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by PetePetosa »

Tried the Pure Turbo Yeast, with carbon and clarify crap. It is actually not too bad, compared to others. It says 7 days, but it took 12 because I kept it in a 62 degree room. Only 13 lbs of sugar in a 6 gallon wash, instead of 18 like the others. I mixed a quart of my sour mash wine in with it during distillation, gave it a bit of corn flavor. Distilled quick in a reflux with copper and ceramic beads in the column.

New at this, about 15 runs into it, and I like it a lot. Lots to learn. Trying to recreate my 2nd ever batch, it was a 24hr turbo that came with the still. It tasted great. Thought to myself, how do all these guys make such bad shine??? They must have to try at it!! Haha.. well, I found out. But, I just found some more of the 24hr, going to recreate all the ferment conditions and times. Maybe I will luck out again!!

Happy New Years!!
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by yarddog2k »

I did a total newbie dumb dumb running my very first batch of corn. I thought "Hey, if I use turbo yeast and a butt load of sugar with my malted corn, I'll get 20% ABV and that will give me more final product". What a mistake that was. My first batch ended up being used for charcoal starter and lawn mower gas. It was HORRIBLE! Even after cutting a jar of it down to 80 proof (40%) it was still nasty. Yes, I did a stripping run, then a second run where I discarded the heads and tails, then did a 3rd run nice and slow. Didn't help much at all. I will never use turbo yeast again unless I need more lawn mower gas.
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by stevea »

yarddog2k wrote:I did a total newbie dumb dumb running my very first batch of corn. I thought "Hey, if I use turbo yeast and a butt load of sugar with my malted corn, I'll get 20% ABV and that will give me more final product". What a mistake that was.
Take this w/ a grain of salt - I'm a LT Homebrewer. Have some some consulting to the brewery industry,and have hopes of starting a distillery next year. (no distilling experience - unlawful here).
So we have been working through some testing of mashing & yeasts since we can't distill and ...

IMO no yeast anywhere enjoys a 20% ABV level, and frankly even 8%ABV stresses most yeasts enough to taste. Even wine yeasts produce dubious secondary flavor products at ~14-15% (hidden behind a mask of other strong flavors). Just as an example, Sierra Nevada Pale Ale (5.6%ABV )is one of the cleanest, best PAs on the planet (IMO), however they produce a 'Bigfoot Barleywine' (9.6%ABV) where I consistently detect objectionable fusels. In the US craft brewing biz there has been a strong trend to push up ABV from 5-7% to a lot more, yet I consistently find I prefer <8%ABV beers just due to fermentation by-products. I believe there was a good reason that traditional US & Scots whisk[e]y wash was <8%ABV.

Then there is the yeast itself. My one experience with "turbo" yeast was that it was barely acceptable. I'd rather culture up some champagne yeast (a clean strong fermenter) that use turbo again. I am very interested in testing some of the new Kveik yeasts. They *promise* to be strong, clean high-temp fermenters that produce loads of esters.

Then the mash. Yeast need nutrients - biotin, pantothenic acids,... a fair bit of amino acids (or substitutes). They can use fats/oils the fermenters but with corn you already have a lot of mono-unsats and it might even help to add an emulsifiers (like lecithin) to corn. But sugar isn't a "health food" for either you or your yeast. It's raw carbs, w/o any nutrients. I am not opposed to minor sugar+DAP additions, but you really have to keep it in bounds (<20%).

I know that we all feel some achievement at merely converting grain/sugar/fruit to a high-alc beverage, but if ethanol was the goal, then I can order a tote of GNS that is likely to be cleaner & cheaper than anything distilled at a small scale. The real goal has to be quality, not quantity of EtOH.

I'm sort of amused on the pro-forums where everyone with a 150gal pot still and a 3day course calls themself a "master distiller". A lot of ppl on this forum have far more knowledge, more experience, tho a lot less ego. I'm coming around to the understanding that, wrt whiskey, the mash quality and barrel aging are more complex and important quality issues than operating a still. Yes, you can get away with more "crimes" w/ vodka/gin and lose most of the evidence in the stillage but ... why would you?
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by CoogeeBoy »

So, are the off flavours a function of the yeast itself or the nutrients that are included? Do the nutrients contribute to the thermal issues that require close monitoring?
To test, I have harvested some yeast from my first run and am fermenting my second using that. I have done a TFFV since and I know what I am aiming for now. Will keep you posted!
Taking a break while I get a new still completed....
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by silverbean »

How did you go CoogeeBoy with the harvested yeast. When you think about it I would expect its not the yeast itself but giving it the nutrients to enable it to reach 18% in 4 days stresses it to throw off flavors and the overheating from all that activity. Now that I think about it the only time I used Turbo48 was my 2nd ever ferment and I had to fight to keep the temp down between 12 - 36 hours in but I was only aiming for about 14% so didn't end up too bad. Interested to know how you went.
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by CoogeeBoy »

silverbean wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:16 am How did you go CoogeeBoy with the harvested yeast. When you think about it I would expect its not the yeast itself but giving it the nutrients to enable it to reach 18% in 4 days stresses it to throw off flavors and the overheating from all that activity. Now that I think about it the only time I used Turbo48 was my 2nd ever ferment and I had to fight to keep the temp down between 12 - 36 hours in but I was only aiming for about 14% so didn't end up too bad. Interested to know how you went.
Hi mate,
The harvested yeast was fine, a lot slower and the resulting neutral was pretty good I thought so I think you are right, it is all the nutrients they add etc etc.
Am way past my first ferment and have used harvested yeast a couple of times now. To be frank, I think I may have used too much yeast, there certainly seemed to be a good deal of it even after a couple of washes and settling on the fridge.
Thank you for asking and look after yourself.
Taking a break while I get a new still completed....
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by OnceAlive »

Hi,

I received a turbo yeast pack with the still I bought and instead of simply tossing it I would rather try alkoholics's suggestion of splitting everything in half and use less sugar.

Also, I haven't done any AG mash yet but I'm looking into it. In uncle jesse's tutorial on how he cooks his rye he mention that he did the full rye mash because he wanted to taste the rye on its own.

Here are the questions: Can I add grains to the ferment to give it taste similarly to what is done in UJSSM with corn? I got malted rye and malted oat from the brew store and thought I could add a different grain in each wash to get an idea of their specific taste. If so, what quantity do you suggest I use? Should I cook them first, measure the sg and then raise it with sugar or just mill them and add the recommended sugar (in lesser quantity)?

Edit: the turbo yeast pack suggest 6kg of sugar in 21L of water... which should give 14%. (That seem like a lot!)
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by Sporacle »

14% is a lot. Why not do a UJSSM from the tried and true, you will get over 4000 posts to search for info on it and you will get a baseline for flavours as well, once you have that down it will become easier to experiment, good luck :thumbup:
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by OnceAlive »

I already have a UJ running at the moment.

I'm trying to find a use for the packet of turbo yeast that I have that's all. Wondering if I could take down two birds with one stone while at it.

To be honest, I don't really understand the idea behind those turbo packs in the first place. Are they suppose to be use to make neutral? What is the resulting product suppose to taste like? To me its sounds like entering a grocery store and buying a box on which would be written "food"! So I guess I'm just trying to put it to use and make "alcohol"... I don't really know which kind but yeah...
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I got a pack of turbo that came with my first still a few years ago and felt the same way - I felt like I was somehow wasting the turbo yeast by not using it? The packet of turbo has been sitting in my fridge ever since and I've gone through countless packs of various wine and beer yeasts plus jars and packets of bakers yeast... The feeling that I have wasted that turbo has mostly left but I haven't thrown it away yet either so who knows - Maybe I'll lay down a ferment one day with it but probably not - I feel like now it'd be a waste of ingredients and time so why even bother with it? I won't be buying any..

If I'm using a boutique (ie; more expensive) beer, ale, lager, or maybe even wine yeast in a series of ferments I'll harvest and wash some trub on the first gen and keep it in a wine bottle in the fridge and use 1/4c at a time to start next ferments... Turns out for me that pretty much all yeast is cheap enough if I use that protocol.

Since it's now 2022 I think i'll have a little ceremony and use some fores to actually burn the turbo tonight in a flaming sacrifice - hoping beyond all hope that the ethanol gods aren't offended by this offering...

Cheers!
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by Stonecutter »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:49 pm
If I'm using a boutique (ie; more expensive) beer, ale, lager, or maybe even wine yeast in a series of ferments I'll harvest and wash some trub on the first gen and keep it in a wine bottle in the fridge and use 1/4c at a time to start next ferments... Turns out for me that pretty much all yeast is cheap enough if I use that protocol.

Since it's now 2022 I think i'll have a little ceremony and use some fores to actually burn the turbo tonight in a flaming sacrifice - hoping beyond all hope that the ethanol gods aren't offended by this offering...


Cheers!
-j
Bwahaha! That just kicks ass.
+1
Yeast is cheap. If you’re going to put a lot of time, effort and care into making products, don’t then sabotage yourself by using sub par yeast. If you really want to use the turbo I would suggest you boil it and feed it to a respectable colony of Saccharomyces cerevisiae.
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by NZChris »

Save it for when you have a stubborn ferment that won't start no matter what tricks you throw at it.
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by OnceAlive »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:49 pm The packet of turbo has been sitting in my fridge ever since and I've gone through countless packs of various wine and beer yeasts plus jars and packets of bakers yeast... The feeling that I have wasted that turbo has mostly left but I haven't thrown it away yet either so who knows - Maybe I'll lay down a ferment one day with it but probably not - I feel like now it'd be a waste of ingredients and time so why even bother with it? I won't be buying any..


Cheers!
-j
Pretty much where I'm heading. I thought better use it than to waste it but if 2$ of a good yeast will do a better job why bother with this one?
Cheers!

NZChris wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 3:46 pm Save it for when you have a stubborn ferment that won't start no matter what tricks you throw at it.
I didn't thought of that! That's a good idea. Ironically "using" it as an insurance policy by not using it... Well let's hope I don't have to use it then.
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by OnceAlive »

Stonecutter wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 3:02 pm If you really want to use the turbo I would suggest you boil it and feed it to a respectable colony of Saccharomyces cerevisiae.
Ha! It took me a re-read to understand that one. It's either late or simply who I am! Good tip though! Haha!
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by YeahMate »

Bloke at the home brew shop gave me a packet of the "Pure Turbo" yeast that comes with the carbon and the clearing agent. Now this isn't a 24 hours 10kg of sugar turbo it's "only" 6kg in a 25l wash. I fermented it in my beer fermenting fridge at 20 degrees Celcius for about a week and it actually comes out pretty clean.

Doesn't smell nasty in the fermenter and was a pretty nice neutral after a single run in my 2" Boka. Yielded about 4l proofed at 40% ABV but a do make fairly savage cuts (on any wash).

It's a lot more expensive than baker's yeast at $14 AUD but the convenience is pretty high if you just need to get a wash on with no messing about.

Compared to Shadys Sugar Shine I feel like it's about the same quality of finished product.

I'm not saying I would use it all the time but it's definitely different to the regular turbo washes we all know and hate.
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by Saltbush Bill »

$14 AUD = 3 and a half tins of Lowans bread yeast........thats enough yeast to make over 1000L of any other washes.
Im not sold.
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by YeahMate »

I'm not saying I would buy it either, but this was the only thread mentioning it so I figured I'd add my thoughts. He only gave it to me because I'm always talking about how good the recipes on here are.
Last edited by YeahMate on Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Is that the place that used to be "Daves Bait " shop......or another one ?
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by YeahMate »

That's the one. The owner is pretty arrogant but the other guys that work there are cool.
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by mannye »

I didn't see this thread before I started my own "Got a Free Bag of Turbo" thread. Wish I had. Anyway, I have a 7 gallon /14 pound of table sugar wash bubbling away right now and it smells good and bad. Right up against the airlock it's fruity (esters) but as I said in my other post, it's such a strong smell it reaches the front door of the house. I've had 20 gallons of mead fermenting that never smacked me in the face like this one batch does with the smell.

It should be done by this weekend (4/30/22) and I'll report back. I plan to strip it down to 20% then dilute the hell out of it and spirit run it. My daughter's boyfriend (Gainsville. FL Redneck) will be here, so I will get tasting notes from someone with more experience than me.
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by The Baker »

It seems the problem with Turbo is the excessive nutrients resulting on off flavours.

I have thought from time to time that if you halved the yeast you would be halving the nutrients,
and so halving the problem.
So, make up a starter. The yeast will soon double but the nutrients stay the same....

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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by mannye »

Well, it's done this morning. I'll rack it into another fermenter to release Co2 and get it off the trub ASAP. Then I'll give the low wine (I guess that's what this technically is?) a taste. If I can I'll run it tonight But if not tomorrow for sure.
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still_stirrin
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by still_stirrin »

mannye wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:55 am Well, it's done this morning. I'll rack it into another fermenter to release Co2 and get it off the trub ASAP. Then I'll give the low wine (I guess that's what this technically is?) a taste. If I can I'll run it tonight But if not tomorrow for sure.
“Low wines” are the PRODUCT of the stripping run. What you have in your 2nd fermenter is “distiller’s beer” or a wash that’s clearing for stripping.
ss
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mannye
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Re: Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast

Post by mannye »

still_stirrin wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:27 am
“Low wines” are the PRODUCT of the stripping run. What you have in your 2nd fermenter is “distiller’s beer” or a wash that’s clearing for stripping.
ss
Excellent! Thanks. Yep, gonna add some Super Kleer and cold crash tonight. That should get it clear enough to run tomorrow.
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