Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

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Butch7
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by Butch7 »

Well people will believe it if the see it on TV, paper or internet

Just hobby wise for me is enough of a chance to take.

Except when people forget they were once New to this, hobby and start bashing those of us that are new, I enjoy all of the knowledge here

the show on cable like the most of the others is a scam, waiting for a place to happen
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by mannye »

Yeah. I love this place. I am so making a parrot head for my claw hammer once I get it all together.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by AlfA01 »

rad14701 wrote:I've known several bars to refill the same bottles over and over again with illegal spirits... Always wondered why the liquor authority never noticed when they came in for an unannounced inspection because the bottle labels got pretty worn looking after a while... I think most of the time they were too busy looking for fruit flies in the bottles and tax seals than anything else... Funny thing is they never checked the liquor storage room, just what was behind the bar... Might be tighter enforcement in areas where it's more organized, widespread, or in the moonshine belt...
Roger that! Head to Vegas and sit at the slots. When the waiter/waitress comes, ask for a name brand spirit and then see what kind of 'piss water' shows up. Hey its free, so I've always drank it, but 'well drinks' are the norm as substitutes in places where making money, versus providing quality is the mission.

Again, I love hooch just as much as the next fella...but, when I ask for a 'top shelf' beverage, that's what I kind of expect. When they serve you something second rate, you are disappointed, because the flavor, mouthfeel and paletability just aren't there. I'm a huge fan of Merlot wine and when I order one or open a bottle that isn't quite what I expected, I'm very disappointed....do I drink it? Hell yes! I didn't say I was a snob, I said I like certain tastes of wine, beer and spirits.

I'm happy to be working in a country where you just throw it in a plastic bottle and sell it, as is. Of course all standards of production are met and we follow our own recipes for our products, none of this trying to copy and counterfeit other folk's work. Tsipouro, Raki, and of course, being from MS, I gotta make a little lightning!

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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by mannye »

I honestly don't think I have ever had that happen. Although who knows what I'm served if I'm wasted already.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by bads197 »

I find it interesting that a state that doesnt know how much illegal "moonshine" is being made and sold... can just come up with a figure like 20 million in tax revenue lost.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by ranger_ric »

Interesting Bads197,
I ran some numbers, 20mil / $25gal = 800,000 GALLONS of illegal whiskey a year
They claim it is made in 800 gallon pots so that is roughly 3 pots a day going to market EVERY day
8.3 million people in Virginia, that is just shy of 1 gallon of illegal moonshine for every man WOMAN AND CHILD in Virginia....
Feasible ??? I dunno sounds a little steep to me..

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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by mannye »

I dunno. 1 gallon per year? That's not a crazy number. I can get through a 750ml bottle of scotch in a week Not that I polish off a bottle a week, but probably one a month for sure. That's 10 to 12 a year. Just me. That's almost 2.5 gallons annually. Do the numbers now. Also factor in that a certain amount would go to tourists and for gifts. Plus there is a certain percentage that may drink more than me.

It gets pretty reasonable as a number.

Now would the elimination of shine translate into ALL that money going to the state? Highly doubtful. Because if it's not moonshine, you can already eliminate a large percentage of people who were buying for the novelty or to take back home. None of those folks are buying anything on the road they can get around the corner.

Same for the local buyers. They will probably drink less or make their own, which is safer than buying it. Plus them how much would eradication cost? Much more than the revenue that's missing that's for sure.

So the statistic even though it may be accurate or nearly accurate, is still a bunch of meaningless drivel meant to obscure the real reason.

All those dollars they get for "enforcement."
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by Jimbo »

I wish I only drank a gallon a year. Can easily put away 1/2 a gallon in a night with some friends over. Or a fifth with 1 friend and a few games of darts.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by yakattack »

Jimbo wrote:I wish I only drank a gallon a year. Can easily put away 1/2 a gallon in a night with some friends over. Or a fifth with 1 friend and a few games of darts.
+1 every Tuesday and Friday, darts and drinks and smoke, perfect evening's. We have a drinking/ dart game that can get pretty funny to watch.

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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by mannye »

See? So it's reasonable. Maybe in Mormon country those numbers are crazy but the more I think about it, it seems the people that make the laws are people that don't drink and further, hate drinking.

Laws would make more sense if the people making them were required to be familiar with the substance.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by NatiMatt »

Firstly I can't believe I made it through this thread... I might make some enemies around here by saying the following, but keep in mind I'm doing this myself so I can't be that unaligned with you.

The reason this is illegal in the US is because they have identified running a still as a public safety risk. The majority of what I have read on this forum is continually discussing how to be careful and do things right. Do you honestly think that the general public is going to those lengths? Do you think they will learn the science? That's not to say there shouldn't be a license or way to get a license (the older folks around here could probably work out a program and test that would qualify people to do it legally I'm sure), but then the whole program is a cost to the Govt. Think of it like a skilled trade like say being and electrician. Most states require and electrical license to do work, and all states have inspection bureaus that come around and follow up on your work. There are fees associated with the permits, but then there is accountability so some hack doesn't burn my house down. Would you be willing to pay for a set of classes to learn how to distill, apply for a permit for every run, have an inspector make sure you are going to kill anyone and that you properly made cuts?

Think about it another way. Some have said here that this is a tax revenue issue. It's not. This is a complicated, hard to learn, & time consuming craft. If it was legal how many people do you really think would take the time to do it? I'd wager right now there are less than 50,000 stills in the US, and a good chunk of them probably don't get used very often. Think of the guy who thought he was going to do it then had a hard time and now it's in his basement and his boilers is holding Christmas wrapping paper for his wife. Then there are lots of guys like me who might make 5 gallons a year. In 2014 the revenue for just bourbon was 2.7 Billion with a B just in the US, and another almost 2 Billion as exports. Do you think home guys are putting a dent in that? Think of how many guys make wine at home (its probably 2-3 orders of magnitude more than still guys), are they impacting wineries?

The laws on this aren't going t change, some of that is tax revenue maybe, probably not much, but more than that the general public isn't motivated to do anything about this because they are happy to go pay 50 for a bottle of whatever and have the piece of mind that its "made properly" in their heads. Just talk to people who don't know anything about this and listen to what they say. "Can't you go blind from that?". You can say its a lack of education all you want, but unless you grew up around it, or spent some serious time educating yourself, you don't know, and aren't interested. Sure if you live in the shine belt, or grew up on a farm that had a still you might disagree, but that isn't most people, and certainly isn't the electorate.

Honestly I don't care. I know some cops and they don't care either. I told one of them what I'm working on and he said he wants to come check it out because it's interesting not because he wants to arrest me. Maybe an ATF agent would care, but the local guys where I'm from certainly don't. Selling it is a whole different deal, but making it for yourself isn't going to raise anymore than shooting off fireworks on the 4th of July in any of the 24 states that you aren't allowed too. Making it illegal probably just makes the barriers higher for the idiots, the guys who are going to do it right will still get over.

I guess maybe I just have a regionalized or localized perspective on this, i don't know. From where I'm sitting it's sort of a common sense issue. If you want to sell hooch illegally some people might get upset, if you want to make some at your house nobody cares...
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by Bushman »

NatiMatt, I agree to disagree with many of your statements however I do agree with your last paragraph. Safety is huge and educating the public is paramount. I really think this hobby can be as complicated or simple as one wants to make it. I totally disagree with the selling part, as a retired design engineering instructor and funded through tax payer funds I felt projects we did should never competed with local businesses. It was very important not to compete just as I feel that selling untaxed products makes it very difficult for the small micro-distilleries that are paying fees and licensing. I like going to garage sales as you can get good deals and people get a chance to get rid of things they no longer need or want. However people that have on going garage sales that treat it like a business with out paying business taxes I have a problem with. Hope this makes sense!
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by pfshine »

NatiMatt wrote:
The reason this is illegal in the US is because they have identified running a still as a public safety risk. The majority of what I have read on this forum is continually discussing how to be careful and do things right. Do you honestly think that the general public is going to those lengths? Do you think they will learn the science? That's not to say there shouldn't be a license or way to get a license (the older folks around here could probably work out a program and test that would qualify people to do it legally I'm sure), but then the whole program is a cost to the Govt. Think of it like a skilled trade like say being and electrician. Most states require and electrical license to do work, and all states have inspection bureaus that come around and follow up on your work. There are fees associated with the permits, but then there is accountability so some hack doesn't burn my house down. Would you be willing to pay for a set of classes to learn how to distill, apply for a permit for every run, have an inspector make sure you are going to kill anyone and that you properly made cuts?


I think we have given the government way to much power with which they stole more. I feel that licensing has gone way to far as it is. Would you prefer to need a license to use a grill or crab cooker. How about wood working or making a campfire or giving your child a bath, all these things can be dangerous. Next thing you know you will need a properly licensed government wipe technician in your bathroom at all times at your cost.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by MDH »

Yeah, you can take it from me, I was almost chased off this site with pitchforks and torches for suggesting that the home distillers association make a recommendation not to distill on open flame (which I agree with nati is extremely dangerous). I was accused of everything from trying to help the government invasion to masochistically hoping for regulation. I don't think anyone took the time to properly read my post. But if legalization happens, I think it should happen in phases, because people at large need to get educated before they do this hobby. Whether that's through govt courses, or it's through certified hobby groups that have education meetings, or whatever, just look at the amount of people coming in here with aluminum stills, plastic parts and turbo yeast. Yes, people do blow up their houses, too. Even some professionals who clearly are not thinking about the potential danger in this hobby (pressure builds, EtOH vapor etc).

Someone here mentioned Fireworks. I am a former pyrotechnician. I love fireworks, but in my town, there was a problem with stupid people doing stupid things with them. The local government was calling for an outright ban, but we managed to convince them that a fire-department offered course, with a one time admission fee of $50, would be better. The result is that incidents of people abusing fireworks drastically dropped because the kind of trouble-makers who do these things are not interested in fireworks enough to take a small 2 hour course and pay $50, they were just trouble makers.

pfshine the difference is that the government wants you to get a license to do wiring because it can potentially affect future house owners. I can think of two recent fatal fires in my town resulting from faulty wiring by previous owners. Nobody will ever want a license for you to barbecue because barbecues are controlled products that follow safety regulations before they're released on the market, and unlike a still, it's plainly obvious that nobody is going to try and barbecue inside of a closed door garage.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by pfshine »

First off i didnt say anything about electricians. As for grills people are dumb. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/ ... -tent.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

When you fight for your limitations you will get them. Whom ever wishes to pay large sums of money and time to take classes deal with extremely burdensome government paperwork employees and inpections. Do it on your own accord and dont saddle everybody else with such insane overreach.
Last edited by pfshine on Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by NatiMatt »

You do need a license to sell pretty much anything. If you want to make wedding cakes you technically need a kitchen license and are subject board of health inspections. If you want to market a tube amp that you built in your garage you are going to have to get it UL listed before you can sell through major retailers. If you want to hunt animals with a gun you need a hunting license that often requires a hunter education course if you are not grandfathered into your states program. If you want to be a plumber or an HVAC technician you need a license.

My goal isn't to regulate everything. For my purposes I feel like I have a fair handle on my personal limitations and I try to stay away from things I know I'm not really capable of doing safely. For instance if I where to build my own house I know how to do most everything except I would hire someone with a contractors license and insurance to put in my foundation and any needed footers. I don't know enough about USGS information to make an assessment on the quality of my soil to do a proficient job I would bet my family on. Someone else may not know how to balance a residential electrical load or have the right tool to follow lug torque requirements on service panels. The problem is when you have people that either don't care that they don't know, or don't know that they don't know.

In the case of distilling there are very few things I can think of that you can do at your house that have a higher risk than trying to operate a still from "some video on youtube". If you don't blow yourself up while you're doing it its highly likely that you make greedy or no cuts at all and get someone hurt down the road. Look I don't care this has no impact on me whatsoever. I'm not advocating more regulation or enforcement or anything. I'm just saying this is never going to be a concern that the public wants to take on. It affects to small a group of people. 499 out of 500 people don't even know what the word reflux means.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by pfshine »

Selling? Who is talking about selling hooch? I really hope you aren't planning on selling. That being said there is tons of stuff more dangerous than home distillation. Such as welding black smithing matal casting wood working hell do you know how many people die taking a shower.
As for hurting somebody by not making cuts, that would be just drinking commercial stuff and getting a hangover. Why am I even debating somebody that has never even run a still. Just don't give big bro any ideas about even more burdensome regulations and licensing, there is to much as it is.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by BobbyIronsights »

I read the OP, and I have a rebuttal. :egeek:

I'm not advocating selling moonshine, I think it's irresponsible, and criminal. Being a hobby distiller shouldn't be a crime, but stealing from the government is bad form. Sure the gov't does crappy things with tax money, but they also do alot of good. Like roads, schools and fire departments.

I believe selling shine has the potential to cause alot of embarrassment, and depending on where you live, could result in fines and a short stay in jail, and a criminal record, and yadda yadda, so the risks really not worth it to most people for the small potential reward. Even a small chance at arrest isn't worth it, unless you can't feed your family or something equally horrible.

That being said, I took criminology and several law courses, back when I thought I wanted to be a lawyer. I have a reasonable opinion and I'm going to share it if nobody minds. I've been a member of this forum for a couple years now, and I've seen alot of, let's say, .... unrealistic :crazy: viewpoints regarding LEO and the law.

I don't believe that it's "guaranteed" that'll you'll get caught if you sell a little shine. IMMEDIATELY, The FBI catches less than ten percent of active serial killers in a given year, and a relatively small fraction of all the other murderers rapists, and thieves, why would they have such a perfect record with moonshiners. :roll: Also, why, if their so good at catching moonshiners, is there still so much shine? I mean, the various police agencies have had hundreds of years to stamp out the trade, are they just waiting until after lunch? No, I think the "risk" while real, is more potential than guaranteed.

I think it's ridiculous to think that just because someone makes a little shine, that they have the resources or desire to start counterfeiting, I mean seriously, how does one get from mixing a little mash, and boiling a little wash, to being able to source counterfeit glass or plastic bottles in known shapes, and plastic or metal caps and the machine to apply them, and finding a professional printer with the ability and desire to print off fake embossed labels and well... you get the point. It's not Home Distillers producing the counterfeit booze,It's not even likely some shmoe could start counterfeiting, it's organized crime... And they, really don't need the HD website

And the thought that some shmoe is gonna get caught selling a few jars of hooch to his buddies, and that this website is going to SHUT DOWN as a result. That's just silly, If they did have the power to shut down websites arbitrarily, don't you think they would get those thousands of websites selling illegal drugs, illegal guns and explosives, counterfiet money and id's, funding terrorism and let's not forget the HUGE number of sites hosting child porn. If the authorities are helpless to deal with all those sites, (and unfortunately, they are) is it even slightly reasonable to think they'd even try to smash this site. Does that make sense to you? :lolno:

I'm not going to tell anyone how to get to the really illegal crap on the darknet, but any idiot can go on youtube and find thousands of people who've published video's of their marijuana grows..... On YOUTUBE,.... for the world to see. And still not busted, or even had the videos taken down.

My point is, in my last couple years on this forum, I've seen alot of hyper-vigilant, paranoid, terror of the men in black, when.... really, nobodies paying attention to this site, or these hobbyists, not really. In the movies, it's swat teams rappelling down from choppers, in reality, it's a balding middle aged bureaucrat with a badge and a gun and a stack of paperwork a mile deep hoping to god no more cases come across his desk, because he can't handle the ones he's already got. Seriously.

In conclusion, I don't think people should sell shine, but I also don't think anybody needs to live in terror of a swat raid. I also don't think most people in most of the world should be worried about getting the death penalty, for a little still.
end rant/

As an aside...

Here's a fun fact I learned in Criminal law.... The courts (worldwide) are so backed up, they drop small cases that look like trouble. The only way the (underfunded and overworked) courts function is that 19 out of 20 cases or more have defendants that are completely unrepresented by any lawyer at all, and they predictably plead guilty when offered a plea deal. So, if you're arrested for anything from jaywalking, to drunk driving, simply hire a cheap lawyer, and ask for discovery. Those two actions alone will make the crown (prosecution in U.S.) almost always have a fit, and either drop the case immediately, or offer a sweetheart deal. Even if the cops have you dead to rights, That's really all it takes. Plus, since you have discovery, you get to see ALL the evidence the police have against you, before you decide what to do.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by 49er »

I agree with all the above. But I'm always irked when I hear phrases like "The govt has lost" or " Such and such has caused losses amounting to " etc, etc! Nothing has been lost, you cant lose something you never had! The correct phrase should be " failed to gain" If there was zero bootlegging, or software and music piracy, do these big companies/govts think that all those buyers would suddenly start buying kosher stuff, not a chance! there would probably be less than half who would, so all these huge "losses" are nothing but theoretical, pie in the sky guesstimates! Anyway, thats my rant over,, going to sit outside with a legally bought beer now! Cheers guys! :wave:
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by Eddie2934 »

Agine I know this a old form but being snowed in and having nothing to do figured I'd comment yes some people do this as a hobby but like anything we do there are people with good and bad intentions for some we enjoy making something and siting back and being able to see and enjoy what we do and for some of us it's a way of life or a passion liquer feed and clothed me and put me through college I have over a 100 years of knowledge past down from generation to generation in my family and I hope to further this knowledge for me it's away of life but unlike my family before me they done it for a living I do it just to keep the tradition alive tax or no tax counterfeit liquer or not there is good and bad in everything it's up to us few that enjoy this and won't to learn and ejecat others to keep dieing breed alive if they won't to lock me up for that or tax me then I guess I'll pay the price so in summary for the gov it's money for us it's a hobby or a tradition it's up to us few to do all we can to show that not everyone who cooks liquer is bad or out to brake the law
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by Rick Martin »

I am tired of people not being held accountable for their actions. The lady that burned her lap on hot coffee and sued. You bought HOT coffee be careful. Joe Blow sets his house on fire because of his unsafe actions with a still.

We all have heard the rumours about stills and this is why I have spent a lot of time trying to learn about safe distilling. Much like most of the members here. More permits or licences will not stop it. Making it legal will cut down a lot more accidents. If it were legal the wine and brew supply shops would then have courses on distillation like the ones they have on wine and beer making. That would make learning easier, but forcing people will only work for some. There still will be idiots doing it blindly.

While I am at it one of my other pet peeves is the claims of a certain “reality show”. All the moonshiners say that they do it to keep the craft alive. In their next breath they estimate how much money they will make. I wonder where their heart really is? If anyone can make the claim of trying to keep the craft going is the members here.

These producers hire a bunch of assholes to act and we are to believe it’s real. Take a good look at it. Everyone has a nice shinny new still and you can’t tell me the two old guys carry all that stuff deep into the woods. How can you keep a low profile with a whole film production crew and their stuff around. I would think that might draw attention. This is as bad as their other bull program “Amish Mafia”. For those that may not have much knowledge about the Amish, they are part of the Mennonite community and work hand in hand with many Mennonites. The Mennonites have TVs. Now with that title don’t you think someone would check it out and tell the Bishop about Levi? No it took over 4 years for the Bishop to learn what was going on. Believe me it is very hard, if not impossible, to get one over on the Amish or Mennonites. OK I’m donefo now.




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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by moony »

They caught a set up over in the UK not long ago using a 40ft trailer, with mash, wash, distil, bottling and boxing all together on that 1 trailer.
The urns used looked 300l type and bootlegging smirnoff i think it stated, some polish men had been arrested so the authority's only knew about it existing once they stumbled onto them (wonder how many more are knocking about!)
.... i'll look for image now, couldn't find it but i remember seeing it in image format not a video, it was unreal, it even had filtration units with charcoal filters so at least they had some pride and safety in mind !
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by Sunshineer »

Would never think of counterfeiting that said I do collect empty cork top bottles every chance I get. First thing I do is wash off there labels I have my own and I wouldn't want anyone to think that my good still ins was made by someone else. And there are a lot of nice bottles out there if you have the time or effort to find them.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

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https://www.seacoastecho.com/news/in-th ... 0e820.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by SirShine »

I would not say that somebody running a still who sells some extra on the side is counterfeiting. They are not imitating a brand or name, sure it is still illegal but the chance of them catching any attention unless they are selling very large amounts is very slim.

If you are worried about this site getting shut down because people talk about illegal distillation etc than simply make it so they cannot close it. Move to a .se domain for example that the FBI has no control on unlike .com, .net, .cc, .tv, .name, .jobs, .edu, .gov. (verisign controlled). Next move the site to a server located in Sweden with a company like PRQ who is highly resistant to any form of legal pressure and well known for it.

Some work but you would no longer need to worry about the site being forcibly closed.

My 2 cents.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by kiwikenny1985 »

Don’t have to worry here legal to distill. One of the only countries to be that way
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SaltyStaves
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by SaltyStaves »

kiwikenny1985 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:35 pm Don’t have to worry here legal to distill. One of the only countries to be that way
Its not legal to sell it.
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Yummyrum
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by Yummyrum »

SirShine wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:59 am If you are worried about this site getting shut down because people talk about illegal distillation etc than simply make it so they cannot close it.
You totally miss the point . We are not trying to pretend that home distillers shouldn’t sell just so we don’t get shut down .

We are home distillers and promote the hobby for what it is . We do not condone selling or bartering our home made spirit . We also will not tolerate any discussion advocating the fact .
kiwikenny1985
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by kiwikenny1985 »

Yummyrum wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:45 am
SirShine wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:59 am If you are worried about this site getting shut down because people talk about illegal distillation etc than simply make it so they cannot close it.
You totally miss the point . We are not trying to pretend that home distillers shouldn’t sell just so we don’t get shut down .

We are home distillers and promote the hobby for what it is . We do not condone selling or bartering our home made spirit . We also will not tolerate any discussion advocating the fact .
Maybe so, it is illegal to sell, you can give it away without payment
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ShineonCrazyDiamond
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

Still illegal and against our rules. For your consumption and your household. Nothing more is to be discussed.
"Come on you stranger, you legend, you martyr, and shine!
You reached for the secret too soon, you cried for the moon.
Shine on you crazy diamond."
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