Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby blind drunk » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:11 pm

freespirited wrote:I agree Husker! Just wondering if I was missing something? Fuel tax compared to alcohol tax vs the amount consumed/used in a year I would guess to be similiar.


Could be because it's "easier" to make enough shine for drinking than it is to make enough fuel for driving. Most would never consider making their own fuel (I wouldn't), but more people would make their own likker if it was legal to so so. Just a thought.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby Bull Rider » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:07 pm

The first major civil uprising in the U.S. was over the Whiskey tax. The Whiskey tax was imposed to pay off the Government's debt after the revolutionary war.

President George Washington led the Government troops to quell the uprising. While he was a sitting president, guess the didn't have golf back then.

I bought a bottle of corn whiskey the other day, just to sample, and it was $11.00 to the distiller, and $14.00 in state, local, and federal taxes. So more than half of the price went to the government.

But I remember when a carton of smokes was $3.50.


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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby yankeeclear » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:21 pm

+1 BR. Out with the Sin Taxes!!!
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby grunthor777 » Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:43 am

Bull Rider wrote:
I bought a bottle of corn whiskey the other day, just to sample, and it was $11.00 to the distiller, and $14.00 in state, local, and federal taxes. So more than half of the price went to the government .


I wish it was that low up here, just north of the border we pay up to 700 percent taxes on alcoholic beverages. Tax rate is one reason for the blossoming of brew-it-yourself shops that have opened in most cities and small towns. In visiting several of these shops I've been pleasantly surprised to find alcohol flavourings, Why do wine and beer brewers need alcohol flavourings? Obviously, at least its obvious to me, there are more home distillers than we suspect (maybe just here in the great white north). I know of three other distillers besides myself in my small circle of friends. There seems to be an unwritten code in my province to not bother those who are NOT selling product to others. I have spoken to officers who have assured me that my last statement is true. This doesn't really surprise me as we also have very relaxed enforcement on marijuana laws as well, as whiskymonster has noticed in the Britain. I guess my main thought is I'm happy to be able to produce my own for my own use, and don't really see the point in trying to counterfeit or bootleg. Recently I've spoken to a bootlegger in a small community, comparing his prices to my production capabilities I can make more working an extra day a week and not have the hassle of looking over my shoulder (for the police, or possible competition). I enjoy the hobby, I enjoy my friends adulation when they taste my product, and I enjoy having cheap high quality spirits.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby MDH » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:39 pm

You all should have seen the brick wall of culture shock that hit us when we came to BC, Canada. A bottle of bottom shelf vodka is nearly the price of a top shelf one in Colorado or California.

A local distillery said that of a $50 bottle of gin, only $12 of that goes to them. Everything else goes to the BC Liquor Distribution Branch (To put it lightly, they're not seen in a favorable light among anybody who enjoys good or premium spirits). These people do not allow volume discounts, tax deductions or anything of the sort for small distilleries, making it impractical to for them to sell to anybody within the province at a reasonable price. The consequence is, of course, that the big foreign companies still have a monopoly on the market, because producing a high quality spirit costs the consumer so much and gains the distillery so little.

And it's a shame too, since some of the most talented distilleries I've ever seen have come from B.C. Canada. I have tried Tito's, Chase, Alberta Pure and so on - all double gold winners of the San Francisco World Spirits competition - and none of them touch the quality of distillate these people achieve.

This article should give you some insight into the challenges faced.

As of the topic: I haven't actually seen any evidence of counterfeit spirits here, but on the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised. No matter how bad all of you think you have it with taxes - you haven't seen the province of B.C. yet.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby Ayay » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:49 am

Sin tax is gubmint sin. In this holy land the gubmint relies on taxes from alcohol, tobacco, and gambling. Their excuse is higher taxes are for your own good, but the gubmint is a major partner raking off the lion's share of the profits derived from sin. The gubmint is the new mafia.

PS, they have added fuel, water and power to their portfolio. If yer honest and sober...you could be charged for tax avoidance!
Last edited by Ayay on Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby cornbred » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:11 am

I feel like a broke sinner....... :twisted:
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby Ayay » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:25 am

cornbred wrote:I feel like a broke sinner....... :twisted:

He he, they got you Mafia style...it's all your fault and pay money to get better. Being broke is no excuse.

Globalwarmin is the next big scam. Get werry werry skeerd, and send money. :D
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby Ayay » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:39 am

Going too far off-topic. Sorry.

Let's get back to topic.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby Skymeat » Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:03 pm

This is likely a scare tactic. I'm sure it's legit for people trying to counterfeit large scale. Just like encrypted rfid tags in designer purses.

The argument for loss of tax revenue is so far off the mark that its offensive. I buy local fruit and veggies, yeast, water, propane, honey... It costs more than me going to the store for a bottle. Don't even add in the labor involved.

Even after that I'd be happy to toss a tax to the feds if there was a method to allow it to make me legit.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby runescaster » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:55 am

And let us not forget the local govt's policing the local gin mills cutting down on business. Hell when I was a kid you used to go to a bar stay drinking till 4am and the places were packed. Now in the smaller towns these places can't stay open let alone make a good living. The minute a place gets jumping cops troll the parking lots picking off dui's like fish in a barrell trying to make revenue for the towns under the guise of safety for the citizens ,then no more business. So since these places aren't thriving like they used to there is a huge kickback to the amount of taxes being collected by the state and federal gov'ts on the booze they USED TO sell , so they are cracking down looking for the money that is disappearing. Our gov't is out of control trying to take money from our pockets at every angle. There isn't an increase in counterfeit booze its a decrease in legal booze sold to people trying to have some fun. Just my ten cents worth on it. Hell that's why half my friends have some sort of bar or entertainment area built in their houses cuz you just can't go out anymore. Maybe I'm getting old....sound like my dad. :crazy:
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby rad14701 » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:38 pm

I remember when I was younger, getting pulled over once, well, more than once, and having the police either take me home or call someone to come and get me and take me home when they thought I shouldn't be driving... I was usually fine, because they never pulled me over when I really drunk, and they were just covering their own asses... Then laws got tough and everyone, including me, was afraid to go out and keep the bars in business... We now have maybe 25% - 30% of the bars in this town as we had when I was younger and had discretionary income... And now roughly 75% of the driving related personal injury accidents and deaths are still due to non-drinkers... :lolno:
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby Tennessee Twisted » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:22 pm

You got that correct Rad.
Damn Text Messaging is killing A LOT MORE people, mainly young ones, than other things.

When I was young (in the 80's), I drove the backroads drinking beer all the time, as something to do. I still get the urge, but the law is not as forgiving as it once was. Plus, I have a lot more to loose now!!

Now I sit on the porch and sip my bev of choice. Will be doing so in about, 3 hours :lol:
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby Bull Rider » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:23 pm

runescaster wrote:Hell when I was a kid you used to go to a bar stay drinking till 4am and the places were packed. Now in the smaller towns these places can't stay open let alone make a good living. The minute a place gets jumping cops troll the parking lots picking off dui's like fish in a barrell trying to make revenue for the towns under the guise of safety for the citizens


Well, I for one am glad that we have law enforcement out there working to keep drunks off of the highway.

"Under the guise of safety". I don't think that arresting drunk drivers is a "guise of safety", I think it's a viable way to reduce needless deaths out on the highways.

I've been to grinder car crashes caused by a sloppy drunk that's pissed his pants and puked on himself. The drunks wondering "What the F happened", without a scratch on him. Mean while the medics are trying to keep two local high school kids alive long enough for the medivac to arrive.

No thanks.


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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby blind drunk » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:19 pm

Yup, no thanks.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby runescaster » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:18 pm

I never said I condone driving while drunk, But I have been the passenger in a car where the supposed sober person who had two drinks all night was taken in because he blew a pt. 08 then I was told to drive to the police station to pick him up and I was drunk. They did not care about anything but their ticket book. I have also been in a car with a state trooper who was drunk and in a different state and when we were pulled over for speeding,(we were driving from New York to Florida on 95 speeding had nothing to do with the drinking) he flashed his tin and we were told to "take it easy fellas" and we were on our way. There was no concern for anyone's safety just their brotherhood , I was amazed. Obviously I am glad there is law enforcement out there couldn't imagine a world without them it is a tough and thankless job. But I am talking about the corruption that takes place from broke over extended govt's with huge deficits that are trying to keep their ships afloat using cops as toll collectors on free roads , then when that avenue dries up they will turn somewhere else for the missing revenue. As far as someone puking and pissing themselves. come on that guy didn't leave a bar , they wouldn't allow it , they have a very expensive license to protect. He left his home where there was no one to watch him. There are many stories of extreme circumstances that are very frightening and disturbing used by govt's to justify their actions , such as kids killing themselves with guns used to try to take our rights to bear arms away. These things will always happen. No amount of law will stop them. Common sense people , don't drink and drive that wasn't the subject. I am Sorry if anyone took offence.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby Tater » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:22 pm

Now back to topic please.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby Still Kickin » Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:06 pm

I will probably make a few enemies with my second post here....oh well, lol.

First off, I have no intentions to ever produce enough likker fer sellin.

That being said, let me understand this.
Most the people here that own a still are breaking the law by illegally distilling liquor (with the exception of the people in the 1 or 2 countries where it is actually legal)
Even those who have a license for fuel can not honestly tell me a drop never hits the glass before denaturing.
(most own a fuel license to get them off the hook if feds ever knock on the door)

That being said, I am sure most people here only break the law for personal use and maybe share or give a bottle or two away.
No matter though because the law is still the law. Sure, I don't agree with it, and think distilling for personal use should be 100% legal.
However, if I am breaking the law, I am not going to criticize somebody else for breaking the same laws but worse.

This post to me basically reads, "it is ok to break the law as long as you do not break it more then me".

Lets be real, moonshining heritage started out from illegal roots. We have it today because of the guys who decided to rebel against the gubberment and turn a dollar while doing it.
Many of us admire guys such as Popcorn Sutton who made their living by refusing to conform to the rules of society. So why if some up and comer decides he wants to make a few bucks do we criticize? Sure, warn him that he is risking prosecution (which I am sure he already knows) but after that let it be.

As far as shutting the site down, get real.
First off, in the US, they currently can not do that.
Even if they did, the server can be moved anywhere in the world.

However, gubberments across the world won't do that as this site acts as their informant on who each of us are.

So instead, how about this.
If you are going to risk the illegal sales of distilled spirits, then don't be a fool and announce it to the world on a very public forum.
Otherwise, don't get upset at your fellow distiller for just taking it to the next level.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby Bull Rider » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:12 pm

Still Kickin:

You're missing some of the foundation blocks for this forum, to promote safety, and to work towards the legalization of hobby distilling. Those that have built this forum for the public to use and share ideas, are very committed to those goals. Therefore, this forum sets limits that coincide with those goals.

Here's rule number nine from the "Rule we live by",
9. It is the hope of this forum to promote the legislation of home distilling as a legal hobby here in the United States. One of our goals, is to prove a quality product can be done safely by the home distiller for personal use only. So any discussion of selling bartering or trading any distilled liquor unless by a licensed distillery will not tolerated. Such posts will be edited, deleted or locked.



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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby Dnderhead » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:19 pm

""moonshining heritage started out from illegal roots""
I disagree with this,it started out legal,but MR Washington decided he wanted it for himself and it be a grate way to finance the war.
from my understanding the "tax" was he same if you made 5 gallons or 5,000. ,the "small" guy could not afford this, so it was necessary
to go underground.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby rad14701 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:04 am

Still Kickin, I've got to agree with Bull Rider... You obviously aren't inline with the beliefs we have here... To say that just because what we are doing at the hobby level should in now way be misconstrued into the idea that it should be alright to sell... You are talking about two different concepts as though they are one, and they definitely aren't... Making spirits at home, for personal consumption, should be legal, decriminalized, or whatever... Selling is another story...

Anything you sell, at least here in the US, is supposed to be claimed on your income taxes as income and may also be subject to sales tax... I know that here in the US people don't always see it that way, but that's the way it is supposed to be... And because there are special rules related to distilled spirits you are stepping WAY over the line as soon as you collect one penny for your efforts...

Most folks probably aren't even aware that it is illegal to "gift" homemade wine or beer... The term "personal consumption" means just that, for your own personal consumption... That is why the limits on volumes are set as they are currently... Some may interpret there being a gray area but rest assured that if the government agencies didn't have bigger fish to fry they would be taking a tougher stance on this "gifting" than they have to date... And they do prosecute when an offense is discovered...

What it comes down to is that if we aren't all on the same page here on this site then how could anyone ever seriously consider the legalization/decriminalization of hobby scale home distillation...??? As soon as you sell one drop it is no longer a hobby, it is a business... There is no such thing as "casual sale" of any alcoholic beverage...
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby Still Kickin » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:41 pm

I understand and I am "inline" with the beliefs of the forum.
I would like to see the hobby legalized and firmly believe it should be.
I also agree with not allowing open discussion on moonshining for profit.
However unless you live in a country where distilling liquor is legal or you have a license for distilling for fuel and have never tasted any of your efforts, you have broken the law. I would guess that about 99% of of the members here have broken the law if they have run a still.
After that it is only the degree in which you have broken the law.

What you are saying is like saying "it is ok to make Meth as long as you don't sell it".


That being said, if you have not broken any laws and have run a still, then throw all the stones you want.
But if you have tasted illegal moonshine then you live in a glass house.

BTW, yes the history of moonshine is founded on illegally distilling liquor.
Hence the name "moonshine" which coined the nickname because it was made under the cover of night.
Before that it was just plain whiskey (or whatever spirit).

I am not trying to stir up anything here, but I just don't believe in condemning others for their sins unless you are without.

Just my 2 cents and that and a dollar might get you a cup of coffee.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby Washashore » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:24 pm

Still Kickin wrote:What you are saying is like saying "it is ok to make Meth as long as you don't sell it".


:roll: Dude....You are WAY off point with this comment. Home distilling is a craft and art form. Much like home-brewing, home-distilling takes knowledge, patience, care, and the passion for making a quality product. We can all understand why the gubberment won't allow the sale of a product without proper licensing, but have a hard time understanding why it shouldn't be legal, like home-brewing.

To me, this hobby is similar to the culinary arts; like a fine dining restaurant, using quality ingredients to make a superior product that leaves your palate wanting more. Relating this hobby to crystal meth is insulting... You my friend are not "inline" with the core values of this site. Regardless of legality, we are here as craftsmen and artisans, not as two bit likker peddlers. If that's something you are unable to understand, maybe you should find another forum that shares your beliefs that it is okay to sell and profit on illicitly produced spirits.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby Arphaxad » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:02 am

Making meth is only the same in that it is illegal.

A little meth is not good for anyone. A little ethanol is. That distinction makes your meth comparison absurd.

Also we are not saying that paying taxes are bad, when a business makes a product and sells it for a profit they pay taxes. But if you cut down a tree and make a bench for yourself you don't pay taxes on it.

This site does not condone breaking any or all laws. It has a very specific law that it feels is ludicrous, and that is craft distilling for personal consumption being illegal.

There are many stupid laws in the world but this site focuses on that one.

I don't nessisarily disagree with your logic but in respect to this site and it's beliefs your argument is not valid.

In my opinion. I have only been reading here for about 2 months and probably have only scratched the surface of what's here, so if any of the moderates disagree with me I would go with what they say.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby astronomical » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:12 am

Still Kickin wrote:I just don't believe in condemning others for their sins unless you are without.




Did they have Criminal Justice classes in your highschool or was it Creationism for everyone? :lolno:
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby Fourway » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:25 am

Still Kickin wrote:I understand and I am "inline" with the beliefs of the forum.
I would like to see the hobby legalized and firmly believe it should be.
I also agree with not allowing open discussion on moonshining for profit.
However unless you live in a country where distilling liquor is legal or you have a license for distilling for fuel and have never tasted any of your efforts, you have broken the law. I would guess that about 99% of of the members here have broken the law if they have run a still.
After that it is only the degree in which you have broken the law.

What you are saying is like saying "it is ok to make Meth as long as you don't sell it".


That being said, if you have not broken any laws and have run a still, then throw all the stones you want.
But if you have tasted illegal moonshine then you live in a glass house.

BTW, yes the history of moonshine is founded on illegally distilling liquor.
Hence the name "moonshine" which coined the nickname because it was made under the cover of night.
Before that it was just plain whiskey (or whatever spirit).

I am not trying to stir up anything here, but I just don't believe in condemning others for their sins unless you are without.

Just my 2 cents and that and a dollar might get you a cup of coffee.



Has anybody put this troller idiot on read only yet?
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby Bayou-Ruler » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:37 am

Fourway wrote:
Still Kickin wrote:I understand and I am "inline" with the beliefs of the forum.
I would like to see the hobby legalized and firmly believe it should be.
I also agree with not allowing open discussion on moonshining for profit.
However unless you live in a country where distilling liquor is legal or you have a license for distilling for fuel and have never tasted any of your efforts, you have broken the law. I would guess that about 99% of of the members here have broken the law if they have run a still.
After that it is only the degree in which you have broken the law.

What you are saying is like saying "it is ok to make Meth as long as you don't sell it".


That being said, if you have not broken any laws and have run a still, then throw all the stones you want.
But if you have tasted illegal moonshine then you live in a glass house.

BTW, yes the history of moonshine is founded on illegally distilling liquor.
Hence the name "moonshine" which coined the nickname because it was made under the cover of night.
Before that it was just plain whiskey (or whatever spirit).

I am not trying to stir up anything here, but I just don't believe in condemning others for their sins unless you are without.

Just my 2 cents and that and a dollar might get you a cup of coffee.



Has anybody put this troller idiot on read only yet?



Indeed...................... :wtf:
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby Mud Mechanik » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:44 am

Bayou-Ruler wrote:
Fourway wrote:
Still Kickin wrote:I understand and I am "inline" with the beliefs of the forum.
I would like to see the hobby legalized and firmly believe it should be.
I also agree with not allowing open discussion on moonshining for profit.
However unless you live in a country where distilling liquor is legal or you have a license for distilling for fuel and have never tasted any of your efforts, you have broken the law. I would guess that about 99% of of the members here have broken the law if they have run a still.
After that it is only the degree in which you have broken the law.

What you are saying is like saying "it is ok to make Meth as long as you don't sell it".


That being said, if you have not broken any laws and have run a still, then throw all the stones you want.
But if you have tasted illegal moonshine then you live in a glass house.

BTW, yes the history of moonshine is founded on illegally distilling liquor.
Hence the name "moonshine" which coined the nickname because it was made under the cover of night.
Before that it was just plain whiskey (or whatever spirit).

I am not trying to stir up anything here, but I just don't believe in condemning others for their sins unless you are without.

Just my 2 cents and that and a dollar might get you a cup of coffee.



Has anybody put this troller idiot on read only yet?



Indeed...................... :wtf:


+2........RAD, yo...RAD...stop the madness.
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby rad14701 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:12 pm

Mud Mechanik wrote:+2........RAD, yo...RAD...stop the madness.

We're doing our best to bump steer folks in the right direction... :think: If all else fails we retain the option to bump them out the door... :problem:
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Re: Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

Postby Mud Mechanik » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:18 am

rad14701 wrote:
Mud Mechanik wrote:+2........RAD, yo...RAD...stop the madness.

We're doing our best to bump steer folks in the right direction... :think: If all else fails we retain the option to bump them out the door... :problem:


Ya'll do a great job of it too. My troll radar was just blinking a little :silent:
Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway----John Wayne
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