Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by whisky bent 44 »

Thanks for this. I appreciate u guys takeing the time to explain this in such detail. This information will help me alot. I think with this info and a tnt recipee i can maybe make something i sight above what i have been doing. Again thankyou
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by Warhammer »

İm tring to find some thing like these for reflux i used seach boton pls help .....i want to find and read if there is if you see some thing pls say me and i read it
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by thecroweater »

Yeah not sure why these posts always seem to specify "potstill" ,cuts are cuts regardless of the still :thumbup:
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by Jimbo »

Because the quantity of your run to cut is higher on potstills and less in reflux stills where the shit is condensed. The cut criteria (nose and taste) doesnt change, but the difficulty does, since youre shooting at a barn door with potstills and you have far less margin for error on reflux where everything is compressed and condensed (assuming youre making whiskey where you NEED some late heads and tails in the mix).

For neutral and vodka, cut the cleanest slice regardless and pour the rest in your feints jug.
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by Tony_D »

If I distil my alcohol multiple times, should I remove the fore shots each time?
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by Danespirit »

Tony_D wrote:If I distil my alcohol multiple times, should I remove the fore shots each time?
It's not required..
I toss all foreshots already at the strippingrun, anyway i take some more at the spiritrun..though only a few ml's.
Others take everything from a stripping run, and do the cuts at the spiritrun.
However...why keep the crap in, when it's supposed to be tossed anyway?
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by Jimbo »

I take advantage of every opportunity to remove fores. So I take some off at every distillation. Even off a triple run for a 5 grain I make. Albeit the qty is small, its pulled and pitched. Cant imagine why you wouldnt. The first drops are total shit, pretty much always.
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by Tony_D »

Thx for the tips!
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by Deerhunter »

I'm starting my first run this weekend of UJSSM. The foreshots oviously won't be a problem. My question is how can I determine when I'm on the tail end of the heads and running into my hearts? Is tasting the only way. Seems out of all the fractions, this cut is the most difficult. Running into the tails you have the wet cardboard dirty sock smell and ABV dropping off to go by. But running from heads to hearts seems there isen't much to distinguish the two.
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by googe »

I still struggle with heads to hearts deerhunter, late heads can have some nice flavors in it if blended back right, but to.much will taint things, its a fine line IMO. I generally do a quick sniff and taste straight off the still and try find the jars that have that less nose hair burn and make you snap your head back in discussed. I put them aside from the bad heads, let air for a few days then go back to them and do some tasting, anything that tastes "raw" "pungent" "burning" gets put away for fients. The others that are more "aromatic" "burning but with some throat warmness" I keep as late heads. Just takes time to work out what you like and keep, personal thing.
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by Deerhunter »

Until I get more experience with cuts, and mixing. Could I take all my heads and run late into tails and use both of them for fients in my next run. I would much rather worry about collecting my hearts then heads and tails at the moment.
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by Bushman »

Deerhunter wrote:Until I get more experience with cuts, and mixing. Could I take all my heads and run late into tails and use both of them for fients in my next run. I would much rather worry about collecting my hearts then heads and tails at the moment.
Yes, just throw out the first part of the heads called the fores. Feints is another one of those interesting terms as some folks feel it is only the collection of tails while others keep both, some believe you do not keep the heads to rerun if your running a pot still instead of a reflux. I do both combine in my next run or sometimes just save them up dillute to 30-40% and run them on their own. Some of by best runs have been all feints.
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by Deerhunter »

Thanks.....That's what I will do. Going to shoot for a good cut of hearts. Rerun heads and tails. I think that's the best for me until I get some runs under my belt.
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by hexed »

googe wrote:I still struggle with heads to hearts deerhunter, late heads can have some nice flavors in it if blended back right, but to.much will taint things, its a fine line IMO. I generally do a quick sniff and taste straight off the still and try find the jars that have that less nose hair burn and make you snap your head back in discussed. I put them aside from the bad heads, let air for a few days then go back to them and do some tasting, anything that tastes "raw" "pungent" "burning" gets put away for fients. The others that are more "aromatic" "burning but with some throat warmness" I keep as late heads. Just takes time to work out what you like and keep, personal thing.
If you still struggle with heads and hearts, then do this:

Go to the hardware store and buy a bottle of 100% acetone. Open said bottle and take a good sniff. Don't worry, acetone isn't that bad... it will give you a headache if you keep sniffing, but it's not extremely toxic or anything if you take a few good sniffs. Keep sniffing the acetone from day to day to get a sense of what it smells like. It's a very sweet smelling aroma. After a while, you'll be able to pick it out in any of you heads jars, even at small concentrations.

If you still aren't sure about a heads jar, put a bit in a glass, dilute down to 50%, and drink. Give it about 10 minutes.. if you feel a headache coming on or your stomach doesn't feel right, then it's heads.

Take your time to blend jars. When you are unexperienced, blending jars may be an all day event. Try each jar by itself in your own glass before blending it... except the pure heads or pure tails.
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by Danespirit »

Hexed...i do not even remotely think Googe is unexperienced. :wink:
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by Jimbo »

hexed wrote:
googe wrote:I still struggle with heads to hearts deerhunter, late heads can have some nice flavors in it if blended back right, but to.much will taint things, its a fine line IMO.
Its also volume relative Googe. Looking at your hearts qty you then can determine how much of them late heads to add. Same with tails. Tails are much more forgiving tho as that cardboardy wet dog character disappears with age and turns into nice flavors. Heads not so much, heads dont seem to 'age better' much at all, so you need to get it right out of the gate.

Its a fine line for sure but if you take notes, after several runs you'll know how much of that late heads jar to add back in for whatever given qty of clean hearts in the batch. Nice thing is if you get it wrong, just make another batch of same and add less of the heads next time around. By the time you fill a barrel you can fix plenty of mistakes, as long you taste from the barrel every time before determining your next round of cuts LOL.
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by hexed »

Danespirit wrote:Hexed...i do not even remotely think Googe is unexperienced. :wink:
I don't know anyone I'm just going from what is posted. Smelling acetone in heads is a skill that a newbie distiller needs to learn. Starting with 100% acetone smell is a start.
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by Jimbo »

Yes its an important skill to learn. Googe been around the block for years, thats all the Dane was saying. There's several early run smells to learn...

acetone (solventy, sweet)
common esters like ethyl acetate (solvent), ethyl caproate (green apple), isoamyl acetate (banana)
acetaldehyde (fruity)
diacetyl (buttery, butterscotch)
dimethyl sulfide (DMS) (cooked veggies, sulfer)
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by HDNB »

Jimbo wrote:Yes its an important skill to learn. Googe been around the block for years, thats all the Dane was saying. There's several early run smells to learn...

acetone (solventy, sweet)
common esters like ethyl acetate (solvent), ethyl caproate (green apple), isoamyl acetate (banana)
acetaldehyde (fruity)
diacetyl (buttery, butterscotch)
dimethyl sulfide (DMS) (cooked veggies, sulfer)

you know what would be a good addition to this thread? or maybe a new sticky? is a description of where, when, why and how these smells come up and what to do with them.

I've found them all but i'm not sure why or how to duplicate them, or even if i want to...in what quantity.

for example i think i've got the green apple one nailed in the finish on my whiskey recipe...and i like it...but i don't know if thats good or not...i mean, i like it, so it's good...but is that a bad thing to put in the whiskey? and i can't say i'm positive where it's coming from, just that i get it.

the more obvious ones...acettaldehyde and ethel acetate they are easy to identify and exclude, but the more subtle congeners is what i'm getting at here.

if i was a bit more experienced (these ramblings) would make more sense i guess. If there is any really experienced tasters out there i'd be following the thread for sure.
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by Jimbo »

HDNB wrote:...the green apple one nailed in the finish on my whiskey recipe...and i like it...but i don't know if thats good or not...i mean, i like it, so it's good...but is that a bad thing to put in the whiskey?
haha, thanks for the laugh HDNB. The operative word in the discussion is whiskey, a little of some of these is necessary to make a good whiskey (we're not making vodka). Which and how much is the bitch.
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by Swedish Pride »

Yep, the cuts are hard, having a poor sense of smell does not help either, so I only go on taste, if it taste good keep, if not don't.
Everytime I ventured in to the late heads I've regretted it, may have been to greedy with the amount. for now I'll rather leave one extra jar on the cutting table and only keep hearts and tasty tails.
Heads goes down the drain, tails that dont make the cut gets added to the next strip run.
I'll revisit the late heads when I get better at this and have some stock built up
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by HDNB »

SP, you'll build more inventory sooner if you rerun the heads too!

Ya Jimbo, i forgot some guys make vodka...can't for the life of me figger why, when it is possible to make whiskey. :ebiggrin:
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by still_stirrin »

HDNB wrote:...Ya Jimbo, i forgot some guys make vodka...can't for the life of me figger why, when it is possible to make whiskey....
SOH perhaps? :wink:
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by ukdon001 »

Hi Guys
I've done a bit / lot of reading and cannot find anything with regards to performing cuts on a reflux still.
Am I right in thinking the heads, hearts and tails are worked out on a CM reflux still by volume (using the sugar yeild calculator as a rough guide for total spirit produced) if not what would the other method of distinguishing the different cuts, it all smells the same to me and there is only 2% difference between the first and last jar collected.
Does the water out temp matter while making cuts the user guide doesn't mention cuts and recommends water out temp between 55-65degC

I'm using a Turbo500 CM reflux still, I am not able to perform a stripping run :-(
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by Swedish Pride »

taste it, If you like it keep it, if not dont
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by ukdon001 »

Thanks for the info Swedish Pride.

I've distilled 3 x 25 L washes, no stripping run was done on either of them due to only having a Turbo500 CM reflux still. Everything smelled and tasted ok on my last batch (first birdwatchers wash) but after diluting to 40% and letting it stand for a day it has a horrible bitter taste and smells very methy. I feel as though I may have gotten excessive heads or tails with the birdwatchers compared to the two previous ones I've done.

Im going to rerun the 40% see if I get a better result. There has to be someone else on here who either has or knows how to perform cuts on a reflux still.
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by thecroweater »

Cuts are cuts mate doesn't matter what sort of still, you'll read a lot of conflicting crap about that but it is that simple
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by still_stirrin »

ukdon001 wrote:... There has to be someone else on here who either has or knows how to perform cuts on a reflux still...
Here's how I do it:
1) collect in small jars, measuring proof off still. Number the jar. Cover with a coffee filter and set aside.

2) after 24 hours (after distilling), starting at about 2/3 way down (jar 8 of 12, or jar 15 of 24, etc) take a small shot glass with 1/4 oz of distillate and add equal amount of distilled water, and smell the sample. Record perceptions: grainy, oxidized, fruity, sour/tart, etc. Then taste it and record perceptions. Be descriptive with your notes. Rinse with a big swallow of ice water.

3) sample down first (from your starting point), doing the same: smell, record, taste, record, and rinse.

4) then, sample up (from your starting point), doing the same: smell, record, taste, record, and rinse.

5) review your notes and pick the point where the tails overcome the subtle sweetness of the hearts. The tails will be "husky" and smell "cardboard-like".

6) from the notes, find the point where you note the fruity tastes and "the burn" overcomes the nearly tasteless, subtle sweet taste of your early hearts.

7) the hearts lower cut will be the point you found in step 5 and the hearts upper cut is the poit you found in step 6.

8 ) everything above the upper cut point goes to feints and everything below the lower cut point goes to feints. What's left in between are your hearts.

9) now you can blend the hearts together in a large jug and temper to cask strength (125-130 proof) using distilled water.

10) let it age in the jug white or add oak (toasted and charred) for at least a month to let the flavors stabilize. I like to shake the jug and open it every couple of days to let volatile vapors vent. I also like to keep the jug in a warm/hot area (in my furnace room) while aging as it increases the volatile vapor evaporation.

That's how I do it. Others may do it differently. But this works for me. YMMV.
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by BaxtersDad »

Very timely for this to come up again! I had printed the first post out quite a while ago, but I will read through the whole thing again. I am sitting with three gallons from stripping runs from sugar wash from the last couple of days. According to the dilution calculator on the parent site, I will be putting 4 gallons plus of low wines at 40% into the still for the spirit run. I will be collecting in numbered 16 oz jars and doing the "evaluate from the middle out" routine. My wife, who has a more sensitive nose and palate than I, will be helping me evaluate them. I don't expect to get it perfect, and we will be very conservative about what we keep for the gin run and what goes into the feints jar to be added to another run down the line!
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Re: Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

Post by still_stirrin »

+1 Baxtersdad.

I suggest taking detailed notes of your senses and writing them down. There's something about writing it down that helps to imprint into the memory, and that makes it easier to come back to when you mix and blend. Also, when you write it down, you go slower which allows more of your perceptions to filter through. It helps to sift through the finer details and make better cuts. At least it works that way for me.
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