Aging and Oak

[OldSpottsford]

As I'm feeling my way into this science/black art and clawing away at the bottom of the learning curve it's becoming increasingly clear that aging plays a MAJOR role in the quality of the final product, in my case bourbon, and I've been floundering around and need some guidance. My first batch produced some acceptable if not great 86 proof spirit, two quarts from five gallons of mash. I put it in glass and added a piece of medium toast superior oak spiral along with a bunch of dark toast small cubes and some non-toast oak shavings. Whoa, in three days it started turning color and in a week was a dark bourbon shade. Way too fast, but it had started to smooth out a lot yet obviously was way out of balance, so I strained out all the oak and added just a few small cubes of medium and a few non-char shavings. Batch two had a similar aging start but was rapidly cut back like the first one and is now proceeding more quietly but still got way ahead on color in a short time.

Much reading since then and a dawning understanding of what's going on, but...

Am I better off doing my own oak? I have access to old, seasoned and well dried white oak, and could make my own sticks or cubes. How much to toast? Do I need to do oven toast with foil and then charcoal them with a torch for the real black stuff on the outside? How do I figure out the ratio of whatever goes into a quart mason jar (my normal yield is two to three quarts from, so far, three to four gallons in the still? 86 proof so far.

It's obvious that this is going to require a lot of small batches and a lot of experimentation and record keeping, but if I could get some advice to at least get off on the right track I would be most grateful. Thanks in advance for the wisdom.

[rgarry]

Tons of info here. You want to search this, Mr. P has a FAQ about aging with wood. Variables to consider is proof when wood is added. I do mine at drinking prof but some do it at 110 proof. Then there is the amount of wood (most don't use shavings), char of wood, then length of time in spirits. I use cubes add 10 med toast to 1/2 gal of bourbon and do this for 3-6 months. I have just changed to staves but haven't tried yet.

[maddmatt]

Unfortunately nobody is ever going to find wherever that FAQ by Mr. P is because 'P' is too common to search on, as is 'aging' 'oak' and 'wood'. Besides that, searching on 'Mr. P' as an author turns up no results.

[rhumbum]

So far I have used the following method:

kiln dried French oak split (not sawn) into roughly 6 x 1 x 1/4" peices. I toasted them in the oven at 220 deg C for 45min. I found that they give alot of colour but create alot of astringency in the spirit from the tannins when they are first used. American white oak may be less likely to do that.

I think a good idea is to have some sacrificial high proof spirit that you can leave new oak sticks in for a week or so to get some of the excess tannins out, and then toast it after that to create the vanilla and toasty flavours without the astringency and woodiness. Other people have suggested just leaving the fresh oak in water for a while to achieve the same result.

With some of my used oak I have chared it by wrapping it in foil and throwing it on the embers of my fire. It is hard to guage when it is sufficiently charred to take it out of the fire without turning it completely into charcoal. I have tried also putting the sticks directly in the embers, and when I used them it gave my rum a lovely piney wood smoke hint on the nose, but considering I burn lots of softwoods in my fire I realised that the scent is coming from residues of pine tar, which is probably not something I ought to be drinking.

I have no experience with bourbon, but considering that it is always aged in new barrels you probably want a fair bit of tannins in the final product, it is just a bit much for rum, which is aged in used barrels therefore having less tannin/astringency from the oak. It is very easy to over oak with fresh sticks, and the only way to correct that is to re-distill as in my experience the woody flavour remains even when you dilute it with new make.

As for how much oak to use, it is a real crap shoot. The only rule I think is to er on the side of caution. You can always add more, but you can't take it out - and remember to taste often!

[Soggy Bottom Boy]

Unfortunately nobody is ever going to find wherever that FAQ by Mr. P is because 'P' is too common to search on, as is 'aging' 'oak' and 'wood'. Besides that, searching on 'Mr. P' as an author turns up no results.

Here is a link to oaking that Mr. P suggested for reading >>>CLICK HERE<<< Not sure if this is the one mentioned above, but there is some good info in it anyway.

Oh, by the way, there is no member by the name of Mr. P to search for. His real member name is prairiepiss.

[bellybuster]

I think a good idea is to have some sacrificial high proof spirit that you can leave new oak sticks in for a week or so to get some of the excess tannins out, and then toast it after that to create the vanilla and toasty flavours without the astringency and woodiness. Other people have suggested just leaving the fresh oak in water for a while to achieve the same result.
!

Would this be a good use of tails that are to go into another run? I can't imagine a stick soaking up that much of the tails to change flavour of the aging product. The oak flavour/colour now in the tails jar would distill out???

[rtalbigr]

First of all, entirely too much emphasis is placed on color as an indicator of aging. The color is simply a product of the depth of the toast and/or char, the heavier the char the deeper the color. Of course putting in more oak than is actually necessary will deepen the color as well.

Second, I read here over and over again about how tannins are bad. Well, that's just not true. Oak tannins are integral in the process of aging and doing things like pre-soaking the oak to remove the tannins only short changes your final product, leaving it flat and incomplete.

Aging is a complex set of chemical reactions that result from the interaction of the components of the distillate and the wood. Properly toasting the oak changes the structure of the cellulose, hemi-cellulose, lignins, and tannins rendering them into a form that will interact with the distillate. Toasting at too low a temp or too short of time will result in overly woody flavors. Too high and you will have an excess of tannins and a resulting astringency. At temps of 400-440F you get the ideal toast that results in an abundance of woody sugars and vanillins. The oak needs to be toasted long enough for the temps to reach a depth of 3-5mm in the wood.

The amount of oak that is used is less critical then the time frame, although you can use too much. I find that 3/8 to 1/2 in square and about four inches long is sufficient for each quart being aged. As to the time frame, well, longer is better. There has to be sufficient time for the chemical reaction to complete. The big guys don't age their stuff for a minimum of three years because they like to look at the barrels. The longer you allow the aging process to go on the better your final product is going to be.

Big R

[rhumbum]

Second, I read here over and over again about how tannins are bad. Well, that's just not true. Oak tannins are integral in the process of aging and doing things like pre-soaking the oak to remove the tannins only short changes your final product, leaving it flat and incomplete.

It depends on what kind of drink you are making. Rum is generally aged in used bourbon barrels, so much of the tannins have already been leeched out of the wood before the rum comes into contact with it. Scotch and Irish whiskeys were traditionally aged in used wine or sherry barrels, and now they tend to use bourbon barrels, so they would also gain less tannin than a bourbon whiskey aged for the same amount of time. If you want to create a genuine bourbon then yes, you put only fresh toasted and chared American white oak in your spirit and never re-use old sticks in new bourbon.

[Hawk_]

Why is it that most dont use oak chips? Most of my stuff doesnt last long enough to be aged on oak but I have a few recipies on oak now. Oatmeal bannana gerber, barley gerber and Blackberry brandi to name them. Had some Oatmeal last night after 4 months on oak and it seemed just fine.

[beelah]

It comes down to personal preference...what tastes good to you...take for example wines...many like a heavy woody-oaky chardonnay, while others like it un-oaked..same as with different whiskies....some like a lighter flavour, others who like a strong drink may really enjoy the heavy peaty taste of an Islay scotch like Laphroaig, where others hate it. Try experimenting and see what you like, and as many have said here, you will make some completely unique and different drink that may or may not resemble store bought...artisan whisky that only you have and available in small batches.

[Prairiepiss]

Unfortunately nobody is ever going to find wherever that FAQ by Mr. P is because 'P' is too common to search on, as is 'aging' 'oak' and 'wood'. Besides that, searching on 'Mr. P' as an author turns up no results.

Here is a link to oaking that Mr. P suggested for reading >>>CLICK HERE<<< Not sure if this is the one mentioned above, but there is some good info in it anyway.

Oh, by the way, there is no member by the name of Mr. P to search for. His real member name is prairiepiss.

I don't know that I have ever done a thread on oak aging. Mainly because I still don't know enough about it to start a thread about it. But I may have suggested that thread from time to time? It's a good read.

I've read through this thread and I don't see where the op ever stated at what ABV he is oaking at? This van make a big difference.

I have all kinds of opinions on oak aging. But again I don't know enough about it to truly give those opinions. I have in the past. But I now feel I don't know enough to do it now.

But I will say there are many ways to skin this cat. And it is a highly opinionated subject. From barrels to chips. And there is a lot of info around here about most ways. Experimenting to find what works best for you. Is going to be the best thing to do.

[Soggy Bottom Boy]

.....But I may have suggested that thread from time to time? It's a good read.....

Yes, that is the case, you linked to it in some other thread in 2010 IIRC.