I have a PID, is it good for anything?

[YankeeShine]

I bought a PID and an SSR and heat sink thinking I needed them to make an electric heating element controller, but now after reading up is sounds like a PID is useless? Or is it just that the PID is useless if the temp probe is in the boiler, but if the temp probe is at the top of a boka it will work to turn up the power as product is drawn off and the boiling point increases? Does anyone sucessfully use a PID and can explain to me how to use it, or am I stuck just having to use a potentiometer and there really isn't any way to automate the heat application in distilling?
Thanks

[rad14701]

Most PID's can be run in manual mode, which is about all they are good for as far as our purposes are concerned... Check the documentation and see if the one you have includes the manual mode option...

[Rastus]

I have one, hooked up and using it in manual mode for my still i just kept notes as to what settings i used when i ran it with each head my pot still and bokakob. there are several threads that will explain why you should not use it in auto mode...
that applies to distilling.I clung to hope it would be useful somehow and it was just as a method of manually running my still.
if by chance you, like many others here i would presume, like to brew Beer, then it may have application area. Mine has a feature where i can "ramp soak" and through a series of programming entries, tell it to go to a temp, for instance to soak the grains at 150f for 1 hour then raise it to boil at for another hour, and so on. By programming this in that manner you can follow a recipe more closely with less variables, thus having more predictable results.
I guess if a guy was bored and wanted to set up a system to boil mash whether for beer or distillate, there is plenty of information on building a RIMS system i have a link to one a guy wrote it in 1996 and last updated in 1997 but perhaps on a budget a guy who is capable of building his own still could if motivated and desired to, build such a system and incorporate it into that part of the alcohol process, beer or likker. here is the link:

http://hbd.org/kroyster/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

if you find that interesting follow the links on the side bar, good luck, there is much more if you search them out

Rastus

[bellybuster]

With the PID you are still going to require an SSR to do the switching. The PID will simply replace the potentiometer. A resistive adjusting SSr can be had cheap and the PID replaced with a simple $2 potentiometer. It will work but simply turning a knob is sooooo much easier. With the PID you also need a power source for it which may not match the input power.

[Prairiepiss]

They can be good for brewing / mashing.
I'm building a HERMS system and using them.
Like this.
http://theelectricbrewery.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[MuleKicker]

If it can run in manual mode, you want to see what kind of duty cycle it has. Some of them can be programmed for fast/slow duty cycle, with a variable/fixed time base.

[YankeeShine]

So what I'm hearing is that we havent come up with a way to automatically ramp up heat as needed, and that we're stuck manually stoking the flames, opening the valve on the propane or turning the potentiometer? What does happen if you put the temp sensor at the top of the tower? I'm envisioning that the temp woudl jump up and down a bit until the PID learned and the still achieved equilibrium, then you could start to draw off product? I don't know anything about PIDs and very little about distilling so I'm having a hard time thinking about it. I do just whish there was a way where you didn't have to sit right next to the still in constant vigilence adjusting the heat. That can't be the way the big distilleries do it?

[sambedded]

Yankee, take a pan with boiling water, immerse a thermometer and try yo change temperature if boiling water adjusting s heat. You soon understand that it is impossible. you can change only intensity of boiling but not its temp.

[YankeeShine]

I'm not suggesting changing the temp of the stuff in the boiler, I get that.

But when I run my pot still, at least for a stripping run, I do it by temp. I feel the liebig up and down its length and determine where it changes from hot to cold. if that line creeps towards the product opening, I back off on the heat, if it falls back towards the boiler, I turn up the heat, trying to keep the line in the center of the liebig. I can make similar adjustments with the waterflow rate. I find when the deliniation between hot and hold is in the upper half of the liebig towards the boiler, I get the pencil stream out the product opening that I'm after. When I'm not paying attention and don't turn the flame down at the initial warm up, the rate of boild overpowers the liebig and I get steam out the product opening (trying not to ever make that mistake again). If I had a temp senser in the liebig, wouldn't that work to tell the PID to turn down the power? Basically use some pipe through the jacket to the inner pipe to shield the sensor from the cooling water, then add a port so I can get the temp in the inside pipe where the condesing is happening.

If you don't think it would work, do you know what will happen (what will go wrong) in a set up with a PID and the temp sensor at the top of the column or in the condenser?

[bellybuster]

" I do just whish there was a way where you didn't have to sit right next to the still in constant vigilence adjusting the heat."
This isn't something I've experienced yet. With my pot head I heat on max until I get product then dial it back to half and in the next minute or so adjust power to desired takeoff rate then forget until deep in the tails when it just needs a bit more power.
You need to think of it more in terms of power input to the boiler and not temp. At any given time in a run you can turn that pot up all you want and you're not getting any more heat, just more power. An increase of the rate of boil so to speak

[YankeeShine]

" I do just whish there was a way where you didn't have to sit right next to the still in constant vigilence adjusting the heat."
This isn't something I've experienced yet. With my pot head I heat on max until I get product then dial it back to half and in the next minute or so adjust power to desired takeoff rate then forget until deep in the tails when it just needs a bit more power.
You need to think of it more in terms of power input to the boiler and not temp. At any given time in a run you can turn that pot up all you want and you're not getting any more heat, just more power. An increase of the rate of boil so to speak

"Then I dial it back". Thats the thing I'm trying to automate, hopefully with some level of precission. Everyone is adjusting the electricity to the element, propane to the burner or wood in the fire dureing a run. I'm just having a hard time swallowing that theres no way to automate that.

[Dnderhead]

"I do just whish there was a way where you didn't have to sit right next to the still in constant vigilence adjusting the heat."
Who does that? but you have to be there to make cuts,swap out ketch etc.

[bellybuster]

" I do just whish there was a way where you didn't have to sit right next to the still in constant vigilence adjusting the heat."
This isn't something I've experienced yet. With my pot head I heat on max until I get product then dial it back to half and in the next minute or so adjust power to desired takeoff rate then forget until deep in the tails when it just needs a bit more power.
You need to think of it more in terms of power input to the boiler and not temp. At any given time in a run you can turn that pot up all you want and you're not getting any more heat, just more power. An increase of the rate of boil so to speak

"Then I dial it back". Thats the thing I'm trying to automate, hopefully with some level of precission. Everyone is adjusting the electricity to the element, propane to the burner or wood in the fire dureing a run. I'm just having a hard time swallowing that theres no way to automate that.

There absolutely is a way but...
every wash you do is slightly different therefore the parameters will be different therefore you'd have to setup your set points each and every time. And thats just for the initial heat up.

sorry for the double post....finger troubles

[MuleKicker]

I don't know anything about PIDs and very little about distilling so I'm having a hard time thinking about it. t?

then cut out 1 or the other. Get the basics and learn stillin before you go over complicating it.

[YankeeShine]

After re-reading some stuff on the parent site, I realized that in the least, I should be able to use the PID to bring the boiler to a "pre-boil" temp. That way if my main goal is to not have the still spewing all over the place, I could set a temp someplace under the initial boiling point, go mow the lawn, and know when I get back the boiler will be warmed up almost to operating temp, all i have to do is turn things up a bit and I'm ready to start. At least i wouldn't have to keep running back and checking on it for the initial warm up period.

This from the parent site:

Andrews Microprocessor
Andrew writes ...
The still we are in the middle of building now has a 40l tea urn, a 1m tall reflux column (now packed with SS after reading your site), a peristaltic pump to control draw of rate and has a whole host of electronics hanging of it. The main things my controller will do is
Measure input and output temprature of cooling water, then adjust flow rate to keep a steady wattage of cooling.
Measure temprature of still head and Log the data (so you can later graph it on a computer to check that everything went OK.
Measure temprature of wash (and again log this).
Control a perstaltic pump to draw of the distilate at a controlled rate (like the ~~4mL per minute that Stone/Nixon suggest) instead of arseing around with a needle valve.
Control a moterised lazy-susan/conveyor belt that changes collection vessels at appropriat times.
All this will be done by an itsy bitsy little microcontroller and the entire board should cost less than $150 for others to build. (it there is enough interest I can also make a run of them for others).
Stay tuned here ...Andrew has offered to describe & detail it all, etc - a big thanks to him !!.

Has anyone heard from Andrew or have more information on his set up?

[bellybuster]

"I don't know anything about PIDs and very little about distilling so I'm having a hard time thinking about it."

No offence but you need to read your own statement. If you're not up on PID use it's doubtful you're up on Arduino board programming nor the huge amount of hardware required to pull off even half of what is mentioned there. Read your statement and solve those 2 basic ideas first, especially the distilling part. If you up the knowledge level on that part you'll soon come to understand that automation is both expensive and redundant.

"I could set a temp someplace under the initial boiling point, go mow the lawn, and know when I get back the boiler will be warmed up almost to operating temp"
and if your PID malfunctions?? Its not a matter of "if" it will, its a matter of "when" it will. Leaving a hot vessel of flammable vapour is never a good idea

[RonH3154]

Since everyone has proven by experience that you cannot run the pot still by temperature and that it is power dependent then to use a PID controller your measured variable would have t be power. This would require a watts transducer to measure the power being used. So you would then control the PID on power rather than temperature

[RonH3154]

Bellybuster is correct that the cost would be high and really only worth it if you want to experiment and can afford to spend the money

[bellybuster]

don't get me wrong, I love auto stuff. My brewery is in a rebuild to automate almost everything. I should be able to dump grain in the mash tun and come back to boiled wort when I'm done. Although "come back" is poor choice of words. Even with beer I won't leave a boiling vessel alone. The entire rig is run with 3 PIDs, several solonoid valves etc etc.
Took me almost 20 years of brewing to gain the process understanding to even come up with a design and the last 6 or 7 gathering parts and pieces. The joy of brewing beer though is everything works on temperature.

[YankeeShine]

"I don't know anything about PIDs and very little about distilling so I'm having a hard time thinking about it."

No offence but you need to read your own statement. If you're not up on PID use it's doubtful you're up on Arduino board programming nor the huge amount of hardware required to pull off even half of what is mentioned there. Read your statement and solve those 2 basic ideas first, especially the distilling part. If you up the knowledge level on that part you'll soon come to understand that automation is both expensive and redundant.

"I could set a temp someplace under the initial boiling point, go mow the lawn, and know when I get back the boiler will be warmed up almost to operating temp"
and if your PID malfunctions?? Its not a matter of "if" it will, its a matter of "when" it will. Leaving a hot vessel of flammable vapour is never a good idea

I was just thinking about that, I'm thinking that I could use one of those remote BBQ thermometer as well?

[bellybuster]

I give up.

[Rastus]

i also wanted to believe that it would be that simple as plug and play and then there is that guy, out of washington state selling some new "automated system" makes it look believable, but now that i have gotten my feet wet I realize i learned a lot on the way to my first runs but nothing can compare to the actual experience of doing it and realizing the wisdom that comes from those who have walked the walk, and seeing that with 6 gallons in my 13 gallon boiler with a 4500 watt element it takes 30 minutes to get to the point where things start to happen. in that time, i found there was plenty of things to do and prepare for the arrival of the spirits i was conjuring, and every smell, every drop of that liquid, i had in the back of my mind how fast things can go from ignorant bliss to disaster. i recall soldering with my mapp gas torch and the fine steel wool i had on the bench caught fire, whoosh, quickly could have burnt the whole damned house... different set of conditions, but, working with invisible fumes that can burn with no visible flame such as Methanol that, by the way, is among the first vapors out... aint worth the risk.
i did ponder the difference in cost effectiveness of the electricity usage a bit i see One member of the boards here makes an electric controller where you can just spin the dial for amperage and control your heat, in the for sale section, which is a lot better pricing than i have seen anything like it before. so i figure some day i could change over and move my PID to a brewery setup and use the simple controler for a still. with my pid SSR i can watch the light on the ssr and see the firing frequency rate of the element, how often it is on and off and how that relates to the temp and output of product.
in a way, i feel like i bought a Ferrari when all i needed was a bike, but i have learned a lot, as in other things i started thinking a 2" column but then went 3" i dont think i will ever regret that. With the PID, i thought about getting the best i could as far as potential of letting it rip, after i already bought it i realized my mistake, but, i dont regret, i just figure i can use it in a different application than i originally bought it for. which still was cheaper than the other type of controller, even though my "Automated" still dreams were dashed I just need 1 more beer keg and i will be a step closer to my beer making factory... so no matter how ill prepared i am for retirement, i will have plenty of juice to drown my miseries.

Live and learn, or learn and live,

sorry got a little long winded

regards

[YankeeShine]

Well, its a pretty overwhelming response that PIDs are useless for running the still. But still no simple explination as to why it doesn't work. Sounds a whole lot like "because I said so, thats why".

After thinking on it a couple days, I can't imagine why, if the temp probe is in the middle of the liebig, or maybe even in the parrot, that it wouldn't work to dial up or back the power to keep the rate of boil you want.

I've witnessed for fact that theres a direct relationship between the temperature of the distillate and the rate of boil (assuming constant coolant temp). If I boil to hard, I get hot product or even excaping steam out the liebig. So if you guys are telling me that a PID can't sense the temp change and adjust power accordingly, then as I type this, its I'm thinking it's not that theres a flaw in concept (like thinking you can control the temp of boil by power input), its that I'm overestimating the abilities of the PID? I thought that's exactly what a PID was supposed to do, so I guess I'll have to read up again/more on PIDs. ....unless someone can put it plain and simple as to why it wont work (rather than stating "just because")?

[MuleKicker]

There are plenty of reasons. if you read the responses, itwas stated that it is possible if you know what the hell you're doing. You don't know much about stilling, or pids. You said so your self. Why don't you get familiar with one of the two before tieing them together. How do you program a computer to do something, when you dont know what you want it to do? What more do you want? Do you want us to do it for you??

[fatman]

Im a thirty year union electrician and i am so glad im still cooking with gas. And what is a thermometer?

[fatman]

And im with dnderhead, once i get my propane dialed in and my coling water [cm dialed in], its just collect and change the jars out. I never hardly ever have to adjust anything once i get it rolling, i might check to see where my proof is once the tails comes in and bump the heat just a tad to collect the last bit for the tails jugs.

[rad14701]

Trying to use a PID, or to use one in any way but in manual mode, is just an effort in trying to over-complicate a simple process... I honestly don't understand why people do that, and especially those who don't know how... It's maddening to be quite honest... We talk and we talk and we talk and nobody bothers to listen... They just get stuck on frivolous ideas and can't seem to shake them...

[bellybuster]

I suggest you just go ahead and do it and come back and show us. We love to be proven wrong although no one said you can't do it.
Now I give up.

[YankeeShine]

Trying to use a PID, or to use one in any way but in manual mode, is just an effort in trying to over-complicate a simple process... I honestly don't understand why people do that, and especially those who don't know how... It's maddening to be quite honest... We talk and we talk and we talk and nobody bothers to listen... They just get stuck on frivolous ideas and can't seem to shake them...

Definitly overcomplicated. I just drilled my boiler and got all the wiring completed and the element hooked up. Ready to boil some water to see if it all works. Opened the directions for the PID and its greek to me. Anyone know how to just use it in manual mode? Rex Series c100. Is there a way I can use this simply like a pot that displays the temp?

[oliver90owner]

Use your PID for controlling your mash temperature at a steady level. Works wonders for reproducibility with wines. Apart from that, seem as though it is a superfluous piece of kit.