AG scotch recipe probs ?

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scuzzy
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AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by scuzzy »

Hi folks,
I want to attempt an All Grain scotch, ive made AG beer and Bourbons before so im not totally unfamiliar to the process. I am basing the recipe of a posting called Harrys Glenmorengie clone. he says to to use a ratio of 2/3 peated malt to 1/3 unpeated and to use enough grain to have a potential of 8% alc. so I used a brew calculator and came up with a recipe

recipe for 50l
13.4 peated malt 2/3
6.6 pale malt 1/3

so that's 20kg of grain needed to reach 8%
to mash 20kg at 66 degrees I would need 56l of water
this is more than 50l without even doing a sparge

what do other people do to reach the suggested 8% potential ?
do I add sugar ? but then it wouldn't be AG
any thoughts would help me allot
thanx
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by noobsauce »

maybe im alittle off on my numbers but you are using way to much grain there...should be (might be alittle different for your malt you are using) about 10.68 kg total of grain...for an 8%...if so then you have to learn how to use calculator....

you are shooting for an 8% so 52ppg x 13.2 gallons = 686.4 / 3 = 228.8 so 1/3 of recipe is 228.8/32 (ppg for pale) = 7.15 lbs....... 2/3 of recipe is 457.6/28 (not sure on grain but i used brown malt??? no peated on list) = 16.34 lbs

7.15 + 16.34 = 23.49 pounds...../2.2 = 10.68 kg.....far from 20 kg

the peated might change it alittle but not that much....

*its early in the morning...if my math is off im sorry :D
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by aj2456 »

its worth remembering that 20kg of grain will soak up about 20l of water so will still have a bit to sparge with- also you will need to factor in what u will boil off- if u are boiling

using beersmith will help u greatly here

Also yes it will take that much grain probably as 8% beermaking is v inefficent- but you will be able to keep sparging to get the last of the sugars out and be able to make a pretty tasty beer with the leftovers, just add some crystal and other non enzyme requiring malts u fancy into the tun after u have enough for the 8% beer and some hops and u get some free beer :D
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by scuzzy »

thanx noobsauce,
I was hoping someone would tell me I got it wrong, but im still a little confused I don't understand, what is PPG ? and what have I done wrong when using the calculator ? I used http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/r ... alculator/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow with American pale & German smoked malt. I know the peated would change things ...but I didn't think that much ........ thanx again
... sorry but im from Australia and I don't really understand non metric (pounds & ounces) .....sorry .....
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by corene1 »

Not a math person myself but 52PPG sounds a little high for malted barley. Check out the formulas on the parent sight http://homedistiller.org/grain/yield/typical" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow You can find a lot of info right here just look around. My barley AG's typically work out to around 2 pounds of grain per gallon on average.
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by Jimbo »

Noob, sugar isint even 52PPG. Typcial barley malt yield is 32 PPG.

Scuzzy, Corene is right, stick to 2 lbs per gallon, which is about 1KG per 4L. That will give you a nice mash,
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by McMelloW »

Hi,

In a dutch book about distilling Scotch I found an average of 5l water / 1 kg grain. It is very nice noobsauce came up with the same result from a total different angle.
greetz McMelloW
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by scuzzy »

thanx all
10kg sounds allot better
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by CuWhistle »

scuzzy wrote:thanx noobsauce,
I was hoping someone would tell me I got it wrong, but im still a little confused I don't understand, what is PPG ? and what have I done wrong when using the calculator ? I used http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/r ... alculator/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow with American pale & German smoked malt. I know the peated would change things ...but I didn't think that much ........ thanx again
... sorry but im from Australia and I don't really understand non metric (pounds & ounces) .....sorry .....
PPG = points/pound/gallon.
A measure of how many points of gravity can be achieved by using 1 pound of grain (or other) in one Gallon of Water. I think the points is a count of the hundredths (2 decimal places) in the hydrometer reading. This can then be used to perform calculation of potential alcohol. So adding 52 points will lift water from 1.000 to 1.520, (disclaimer, I think).

Remember too scuzzy, that even old Aussies have difficulty with American measures. I'm old enough to have been around pre-metric but even our old Imperial weights and measures are still different to USA in some areas. Volume quantities are different between Imperial and US Gallons, Pints and Ounces.

Weight measures are the same in that 1 kg = 2.2 lb (approx.), but 1 US Gallon = 3.78 litres while 1 Imp Gallon = 4.55 litres.

So; 6 Row Base Malt has a Max yield of 35 ppg and effective 85% of 30 ppg. Convert this from US to Metric 30 * 2.2 * 3.78 = 249.5 p/kg/l. This high figure is pretty useless ( more than 100 so completely useless really). Since a typical ferment drum is around 24 litres, dividing by 8 litres will give you a figure that is pretty close to the original 30 ppg. Plus it means that a normal brew bucket would use 3 kg in 24 litres to get to 30 points.

30 points / pound / gallon is almost the same as 30 points / kilogram / 8 litres.

Applying this to your recipe comes out to approximately 11 kg of grain (total) in your 50 litres of water. 7.25 kg and 3.75 kg respectively. This should give you 52 points or 1.520 (SG) and 8%. I'd use either 7 and 4 or 8 and 3 just to keep it simple.
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by noobsauce »

Jimbo wrote:Noob, sugar isint even 52PPG. Typcial barley malt yield is 32 PPG.

Scuzzy, Corene is right, stick to 2 lbs per gallon, which is about 1KG per 4L. That will give you a nice mash,

you are right....sugar is 46 ppg......so how do you raise it?....you add more sugar that raises the effective ppg ie. 1 lb (454 grams) per gallon (3.79 L) equals 46 ppg or 1.046 specific gravity ( about 7.1% potential abv).....2 lb (908 grams) per gallon (3.79 L) equals 92 ppg or 1.092 specific gravity (about 14.2% potential abv). also keeping in mind that if you want to keep volume at a gallon (3.79L) then you also have to use another calculator from site....so 3.22 L of water would be used instead of 3.79 for 2 lbs of sugar....

just for info....ppg calcs are used for sugar and grain. and you have to make sure you use "effective" ppg numbers...not the absolutes. this is due to conversion (mashing) inefficiencies and loss of some sugars when sparging

all calculators are on the parent site available to all...unit conversion calculators are there and also can find a chart with typical ppg ratings of various malts

from canada here....we use metric also...but i know imperial and standard to some extent too hehe

as alot here say READ the parent site!!!!!! (enough exclamations? lol )
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by Samohon »

I use 6kg of grain per 20L of water for my AG Scotch... Sparging amounts can vary and are dependent on many factors that can change frequently like evaporation rate (dependent on humidity and temp, size of pot, etc.), deadspace in the MLT and kettle. All these things can be adjusted and accounted for with good beer-making software. For instance: In the early days of beer making, I used to do my boil-offs behind closed doors, usually in my garage, until one of my brewer buddies told me to take it into the yard. That gave me a stronger SG, therefore my sparge could be increased a little if needed. Remember, we are making a very good tasting. hop-less beer here that will be used to make Scotch Whisky. Potential abv is rarely above 5% - 6%, and can be as low as 4% - same as some commercials. The only way to increase the potential abv would be to boil off excess water (not cost effective). Sure,you could add more grains, but you will not achieve the same efficiency when mashing. I do a 10-15 min rolling boil-off to sanitize the wort for my Scotch, (for my beers - 30 or even 90 minute BOs - depending on the recipe), this raises the SG slightly to give me my numbers. When I do an AG, I will typically aim for 100L of wort, storing my hot wort in 20L cubes until I am ready to ferment it, (like most here, i'm a hobbyist and do not have access to a 3000L wash-back - LOL). Tip: I have stored cubes for as long as 6 months, but a few guys/gals at my beer club in Edinburgh have found cubes in their garages/sheds that were there way longer. As long as they are sanitized (corks, seals and all), air squeezed out and left unopened, they will last a very very long time IMO. Were talking about un-fermented wort here - Not fermented wash....

Mash efficiency is the important factor when producing an AG, whether that be for drinkable beer or distillation, we do not have the luxury of topping up the SG with sugar and maximum conversion/efficiency is never 100%. 200 years ago, when Highland shiners here in Scotland made whisky, so I have read, they measured 1/3rd of a barrel of grain to 2/3rds mash water at strike temps, (not far from our numbers at all), I use slightly less grains in my Scotch recipe. Beginners can expect a lot of experimentation when starting out. The numbers, as outlined, will depend on a lot of variables, weather, climate, sea-level, inside, outside, not to mention water, grain, ect. But a sweet-spot will be reached by the brewer/distiller in time. A sweet-spot that, if compared to a duplicate recipe with the same amount of quantities, from a brewer/distiller in another part of our planet, will result in two very different beverages. But will conclude in two excellent libations...

Aim to make a good AG hop-less beer at around 5% potential abv, not saying it will tick all the right boxes, but it will certainly give you a heads-up... Not to mention an abv that you can build upon...

Hope it helps...
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by noobsauce »

Samohon wrote:I use 6kg of grain per 20L of water for my AG Scotch... Sparging amounts can vary and are dependent on many factors that can change frequently like evaporation rate (dependent on humidity and temp, size of pot, etc.), deadspace in the MLT and kettle. All these things can be adjusted and accounted for with good beer-making software. For instance: In the early days of beer making, I used to do my boil-offs behind closed doors, usually in my garage, until one of my brewer buddies told me to take it into the yard. That gave me a stronger SG, therefore my sparge could be increased a little if needed. Remember, we are making a very good tasting. hop-less beer here that will be used to make Scotch Whisky. Potential abv is rarely above 5% - 6%, and can be as low as 4% - same as some commercials. The only way to increase the potential abv would be to boil off excess water (not cost effective). Sure,you could add more grains, but you will not achieve the same efficiency when mashing. I do a 10-15 min rolling boil-off to sanitize the wort for my Scotch, (for my beers - 30 or even 90 minute BOs - depending on the recipe), this raises the SG slightly to give me my numbers. When I do an AG, I will typically aim for 100L of wort, storing my hot wort in 20L cubes until I am ready to ferment it, (like most here, i'm a hobbyist and do not have access to a 3000L wash-back - LOL). Tip: I have stored cubes for as long as 6 months, but a few guys/gals at my beer club in Edinburgh have found cubes in their garages/sheds that were there way longer. As long as they are sanitized (corks, seals and all), air squeezed out and left unopened, they will last a very very long time IMO. Were talking about un-fermented wort here - Not fermented wash....

Mash efficiency is the important factor when producing an AG, whether that be for drinkable beer or distillation, we do not have the luxury of topping up the SG with sugar and maximum conversion/efficiency is never 100%. 200 years ago, when Highland shiners here in Scotland made whisky, so I have read, they measured 1/3rd of a barrel of grain to 2/3rds mash water at strike temps, (not far from our numbers at all), I use slightly less grains in my Scotch recipe. Beginners can expect a lot of experimentation when starting out. The numbers, as outlined, will depend on a lot of variables, weather, climate, sea-level, inside, outside, not to mention water, grain, ect. But a sweet-spot will be reached by the brewer/distiller in time. A sweet-spot that, if compared to a duplicate recipe with the same amount of quantities, from a brewer/distiller in another part of our planet, will result in two very different beverages. But will conclude in two excellent libations...

Aim to make a good AG hop-less beer at around 5% potential abv, not saying it will tick all the right boxes, but it will certainly give you a heads-up... Not to mention an abv that you can build upon...

Hope it helps...
this "about 5%" recipe you state is actually about 11.5% potential abv at an 85% conversion rate.....using 75% ( very attainable according to parent site) you are still 10.4% potential abv....so your math is way off or you are just guessing...

not trying to appear rude.....just your info isnt correct
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by Jimbo »

noobsauce wrote: you are right....sugar is 46 ppg......so how do you raise it?....you add more sugar that raises the effective ppg
No, dont add sugar to an AG, or it wont be and AG. Just do 2 lbs malt per gallon, or 1KG per 4l and youll be around 1.060. This stuff isint rocket science.
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by noobsauce »

i didnt say add sugar to an AG...you mentioned sugar and i answered about sugar.

i...and others...have shown how to use the calculators from site. telling people "use about" doesnt explain to them how to do something or make adjustments on their own. the site has alot of useful info that should be read

i am big on the how and why....i dont advocate telling people just do this.....i like them to understand what they are doing. read my full posts and you might actually understand what i said...rather than skimming and assuming
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by Jimbo »

For someone with a hardon for data and accuracy you sure spew a lot of bullshit. Samohon is correct. Your correction of Samohon is incorrect, and you scold him about guessing??, comical. Your ppg numbers arent even close in a different post below. If you want to play mentor check your accuracy please. There's enough misleading incorrect info on here already that confuses the hell out of people.
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by scuzzy »

Wow thanx everyone for that detailed explanation. I have to admit allot went over my head but it all helps, and thanx CuWhistle for taking the time to explain it to me... :clap:
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

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Jimbo wrote:For someone with a hardon for data and accuracy you sure spew a lot of bullshit. Samohon is correct. Your correction of Samohon is incorrect, and you scold him about guessing??, comical. Your ppg numbers arent even close in a different post below. If you want to play mentor check your accuracy please. There's enough misleading incorrect info on here already that confuses the hell out of people.
i could go on schooling you on math i suppose...but its not obviously your subject. learn to read and do math...check my numbers and get back to me...imma gonna say you got 2211 posts of bullshit yourself since you have no idea what you are talking about....tell me 2 lbs of 2 row pale is anywhere near 2 pounds of toasted....people who dont know what they are talking about are why some come and ask why they got 3 liters out of a batch or 2...cause they listen to someone who isnt capable of learning and apparently never had any.


anyone want to check my math and numbers?......go ahead....i used parent site info and im quite good at math....
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by Samohon »

Heres a dump from my calc software guy's. I get good efficiency at 5% or 6%, it could be better, but I'm happy with the setup I have..
The proof is in my glass...
calc.jpg
Calculations and formulae are great tools to have, but sometimes you need to step back and try a few tricks the old timers had...
No offense taken noobsauce, but my figures work for me and are giving me what I want. Guess they will do the same for others...

Edit: I never overwork the yeast and prefer to have my wort on par with the commercials. So 5% or 6% is good for me...
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by noobsauce »

what works for you is good and great...i myself prefer to use calculators and stuff like brewmasters do. they dont take 3000 gallons and throw in 6000 pounds of grain based on "what the old boys did"

i get exactly what i planned on my runs...because i planned it. not saying the old ways dont work...they do...but i go at it more "new age" or whatever you want to call it
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by Jimbo »

If u read any of my posts youd know im huge on data and calcs. Your use of them is incorrect. Your correction of people is incorrect. Your ppg is incorrect. Your math on on samohons recipe is incorrect. And there isint a substance on on the planet that makes 52 ppg.
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by corene1 »

Well lets see here. Off the top of my head if you get a conversion on an all grain that has 30 ppg= point per gallon. and that should give you a reading of 1.030 on your hydrometer, this is a typical 85% barley conversion. Doing the math for finding potential ABV of the mash is if I remember 131 X .030 = .039 or 3.9%. So For every 1 pound of grain in 1 gallon of water that convert at 85% you should get 3.9% alcohol by volume. Using 2 pounds of grain per gallon of water should read 1.060 and give you double that or 7.8 % ABV assuming we still get 85% mash efficiency and we get a final gravity of 1.000 in the ferment. 1 kilo of grain in 4 liters of water is pretty close the same calculations, within 1/10 of a percent. It is a pretty simple formula and is quite efficient for finding actual abv. of a wash or mash. It is simply, Starting gravity minus finish gravity multiplied by 131 equals abv. of the wash or mash. These are all probable calculations as the effenciency of the fermentation comes into play when trying to calculate potencial ABV. of a finished wash or mash. I could go on and on with calculations and potencial ABV's but if you stick to 2 pounds of grain per gallon or 1 kilo of grain per 4 liters and do a well controlled mash procedure you will end up with a fine mash ready for fermentation. And there you have it from a girls perspective. :D
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by corene1 »

Jimbo wrote:If u read any of my posts youd know im huge on data and calcs. Your use of them is incorrect. Your correction of people is incorrect. Your ppg is incorrect. Your math on on samohons recipe is incorrect. And there isint a substance on on the planet that makes 52 ppg.
I beg to differ Jimbo. I was watching Star Trek the other night and I think Romulan ale must be made from something much sweeter than sugar. But they probably use Turbo Yeast with it as it gave everyone HUGE hangovers! :D Sorry. I couldn't resist.
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by noobsauce »

Jimbo wrote:If u read any of my posts youd know im huge on data and calcs. Your use of them is incorrect. Your correction of people is incorrect. Your ppg is incorrect. Your math on on samohons recipe is incorrect. And there isint a substance on on the planet that makes 52 ppg.
sure is shit head...1.12 lbs of sugar in 1 gallon = 52....told ya that you need some schoolin'....fucking reading comprehension wouldnt hurt either...i still say....2211 (+1 now) posts of bullshit from someone who cant understand math
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by Jimbo »

Lol. That romulian ale is a mf. In practice do u get 85% efficiency? I could never get 7.8% out of 10 lbs in 5 gal in 20 years of brewin. I wish. Insulated mash tun too. Im w samohon, about same conversion. Noob u dont even know the definition of ppg
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

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Jimbo wrote:Lol. That romulian ale is a mf. In practice do u get 85% efficiency? I could never get 7.8% out of 10 lbs in 5 gal in 20 years of brewin. I wish. Insulated mash tun too. Im w samohon, about same conversion. Noob u dont even know the definition of ppg
again bigmouth...you got lots of talk...go over my math and point out where im wrong...im not...and if you got a grade 6 kid at home they might be able to help you go over it. dont want to hear from you again till you talk numbers...(gonna take reading the site which you guys always shout out) you thinking im wrong dont mean jack shit. prove it or shut the f up. noone cares what you think...only what you can prove. and you havent proven 1 thing yet other than "you think" lotsa idiots in the world think...cause of many problems....cause none of them know jackshit.....

i wanna see numbers...you know those things you saw and supposedly learned in grade 1?
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by Jimbo »

Lol. Its occured to me im arguing with an idiot. Ppg is points per pound. Corene showed u the math. Keep attacking me it doesnt help your case.
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

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listen...i figure you got about 18 teeth (12 of them real!) and wear overalls and no shoes....when you use that grade 6 education you failed 7 times in that 1 room schoolhouse and show where im wrong other than "you think"....i will eat crow...till then keep shouting out....noone cares what you think...i showed all my math and you havent shown anything other than ignorance....idiot


*disclaimer...i doubt any hillbilly got less out of an education in a 1 room schoolhouse than Jimbo....they seem to be able to figure stuff out while he cant....

yeah...she can do math while you cannot....figure out how much you need for roasted barley asshole
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by Jimbo »

Lol. I only have 17 teeth, and an engineering degree. Youre not listening to anyone. Corene fixed your math. Did u read it? Do you understand ppg is points per pound per gallon, not points per 1.12 pounds?
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by noobsauce »

still no numbers out of you....*covers ears...lalalalalalalala

will give you the night to see the error of your ways.....goodnight to all
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Re: AG scotch recipe probs ?

Post by corene1 »

Jimbo wrote:Lol. That romulian ale is a mf. In practice do u get 85% efficiency? I could never get 7.8% out of 10 lbs in 5 gal in 20 years of brewin. I wish. Insulated mash tun too. Im w samohon, about same conversion. Noob u dont even know the definition of ppg

Me either , but since theoretical calcs were going on I used the 85% and 30 PPG in the parent site for example. All my AG mashes vary to some extent and I have never gotten an exact duplicate but I get close and final flavor is more important to me than that last little decimal of effenciency.
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