i think there has been a lot of questions asked, and the answers seem to trail off to obscurity. or no answers at all. or conflicting answers.
so is it lactic souring? is it a "lacto" infection? is it a good lacto or a bad lacto and how to tell the difference? how about butyric? is that really bad or does it form esters that taste like oranges and pineapples?
i wish i had some answers for you, but i can't find facts.
personally, ive been having issues with what i call "baby puke" smells like sweet/sour milk from the (slightly more) friendly end of an infant.
"lactic souring" describes it in my mind, but others say lacto doesn't smell bad....are these two different things?
other say if it smells like puke it's butyric and it's bad, your screwed. but it was also described as puke on a pile of shit that would make you gag...not the sweet little burp from your baby.
apparently the smell of puke is qualitative and quantitative.
wikipedia says butyric acid is made by a black mould that grows on fruit, and i'm working with corn....one member suggests "maybe you are just not adjusted to the different funks of an AG mash...well maybe, i don't know.
alternatively it's made industrially by the fermentation of sugar or starch, brought about by the addition of putrefying cheese...i'm not adding cheese to my ferments...are you?
here is a quick smattering of the disparate information:
MitchyBourbon wrote:Phate,
Did you say you left about an inch and.a half head space in the boiler? It may be that your still is.puking. What size is your still? Butyric acid smells.like vomit but I would expect it to combine with the ethanol and turn into something that smells of pineapple or Orange. Did you clean out your boiler after the first malodorous episode? Could you have scorched the first run?
MitchyBourbon wrote:Butyric acid will react with alcohols in the presence of concentrated sulfuric acid, to form esters. Concentrated sulfuric acid is a catalyst for this reaction. Butyric acid has a boiling point is 163 °C so I wouldn't think much would carry over in distillation. But if enough is present in your boiler it is possible that enough could carry over to the extent that it become noticeable. The best way to eliminate it if it is present is in fact to give your fermentation a rest of a couple days at fermentation temps. This will allow the yeast to reabsorb it.
Dan P. wrote:I don't think you should get a vomit smell.mtndewman wrote:hey i had that same issue or what i thought was an issue.. i had that vomit smell and i surely figured i had screwed up a batch by putting in some back wash from my last run, turns out thats the first part to sour mashing.. it will go away as the more back washes you do.. my issue was there was a powdery film on top of my clearing wash.. so i poured out 30 gallon of wash to find out its part or the process ..learning every day..
You might get it with lactic souring, i.e. lactobacillus infection, but this is probably a bad lacto, not the good kind.
Sour mashing is a little bit different, basically acidifying your mash with backset.
700G wrote:Fermenting a 100% Rye malt with enzymes and It's got an infection. Went ahead and squeezed the grains today since it's so close to being done anyhow. The taste is really sour, no bad smells though so hopefully I'm good.
Take a gander: Do you reckon this is lacto?
vance71975 wrote:whiskeytripping wrote:Vance, im pretty sure you shouldnt be getting a vomit smell from it. Not saying other washes can get funky, but being the first time run, it should have a rather sweet smell, I know mine dont get that smell
just keep an eye on it. And the sourness really starts a little later, it really starts the sour flavors after about the 3rd run, alot of guys like it WAY past the third run, I ran one 8 times myself, but you can go farther than that. I just stopped cause I wanted to use the fermenter on a different kind of wash. You do have to replace some of the grains each time too going that far
Well ill tell you how i did it, the smell is right on by the method i am using. Its a method i have used making beers before many times, its called full wort souring.
Basically, you do a normal mash, and reserve a small bowl of one of your grains, you mash in at your desired temp in this case i mashed in at 150 aiming for a near completely fermentable wash. You then leave it sit in the mash tun over night, the next day you add your bowl of grains back too the mash which should be cooled down quite a bit, in my case it was about 110. Then you let it set for the next 4-7 days to sour out, THEN you drain and sparge and put it into the fermenter and pitch your yeast. Normally you do a boil to halt the souring of the wort(when using this method to make beer) when you get it to the sourness you want. This method is used by a lot of beer brewers so they can make a sour beer without subjecting their fermenter to the bacteria needed to make a sour beer.
Normally the smell with this method goes like this, first day normal mash smell, Second day about 4 hours after you add the grains it starts smelling Acrid (ok so vomit is not the best word to describe the smell, its actually acrid.) 3rd day and after it gets a strong Lactic Sour smell going.
Jimbo wrote:Evillemon wrote: friendly butryic acid infection
there's NOTHING friendly about a butyric acid infection. Thats not what you had, no chance, because that baby diahrea smeared puke laden old crusty gymsock never turns into anything pleasant. Butterscotch sounds like diacetyl. Its considered a serious flaw in beer if you get that infection, but if it created something nice in your shine, hey, drink up!
can we get your description of the funk of your ferment? and any facts you uncovered?