Bad? smells, infections etc.

[HDNB]

I have been having some smells from ferments and i think you have too. I have been on this for about 20 computer hours, and not getting definitive answers, so i'm throwing a thread here.

i think there has been a lot of questions asked, and the answers seem to trail off to obscurity. or no answers at all. or conflicting answers.

so is it lactic souring? is it a "lacto" infection? is it a good lacto or a bad lacto and how to tell the difference? how about butyric? is that really bad or does it form esters that taste like oranges and pineapples?

i wish i had some answers for you, but i can't find facts.

personally, ive been having issues with what i call "baby puke" smells like sweet/sour milk from the (slightly more) friendly end of an infant.

"lactic souring" describes it in my mind, but others say lacto doesn't smell bad....are these two different things?

other say if it smells like puke it's butyric and it's bad, your screwed. but it was also described as puke on a pile of shit that would make you gag...not the sweet little burp from your baby.

apparently the smell of puke is qualitative and quantitative.

wikipedia says butyric acid is made by a black mould that grows on fruit, and i'm working with corn....one member suggests "maybe you are just not adjusted to the different funks of an AG mash...well maybe, i don't know.
alternatively it's made industrially by the fermentation of sugar or starch, brought about by the addition of putrefying cheese...i'm not adding cheese to my ferments...are you?

here is a quick smattering of the disparate information:

Phate,

Did you say you left about an inch and.a half head space in the boiler? It may be that your still is.puking. What size is your still? Butyric acid smells.like vomit but I would expect it to combine with the ethanol and turn into something that smells of pineapple or Orange. Did you clean out your boiler after the first malodorous episode? Could you have scorched the first run?

Butyric acid will react with alcohols in the presence of concentrated sulfuric acid, to form esters. Concentrated sulfuric acid is a catalyst for this reaction. Butyric acid has a boiling point is 163 °C so I wouldn't think much would carry over in distillation. But if enough is present in your boiler it is possible that enough could carry over to the extent that it become noticeable. The best way to eliminate it if it is present is in fact to give your fermentation a rest of a couple days at fermentation temps. This will allow the yeast to reabsorb it.

hey i had that same issue or what i thought was an issue.. i had that vomit smell and i surely figured i had screwed up a batch by putting in some back wash from my last run, turns out thats the first part to sour mashing.. it will go away as the more back washes you do.. my issue was there was a powdery film on top of my clearing wash.. so i poured out 30 gallon of wash to find out its part or the process ..learning every day..

I don't think you should get a vomit smell.
You might get it with lactic souring, i.e. lactobacillus infection, but this is probably a bad lacto, not the good kind.
Sour mashing is a little bit different, basically acidifying your mash with backset.

Fermenting a 100% Rye malt with enzymes and It's got an infection. Went ahead and squeezed the grains today since it's so close to being done anyhow. The taste is really sour, no bad smells though so hopefully I'm good.

Take a gander:

infected.jpg

Do you reckon this is lacto?

Vance, im pretty sure you shouldnt be getting a vomit smell from it. Not saying other washes can get funky, but being the first time run, it should have a rather sweet smell, I know mine dont get that smell

just keep an eye on it. And the sourness really starts a little later, it really starts the sour flavors after about the 3rd run, alot of guys like it WAY past the third run, I ran one 8 times myself, but you can go farther than that. I just stopped cause I wanted to use the fermenter on a different kind of wash. You do have to replace some of the grains each time too going that far

Well ill tell you how i did it, the smell is right on by the method i am using. Its a method i have used making beers before many times, its called full wort souring.

Basically, you do a normal mash, and reserve a small bowl of one of your grains, you mash in at your desired temp in this case i mashed in at 150 aiming for a near completely fermentable wash. You then leave it sit in the mash tun over night, the next day you add your bowl of grains back too the mash which should be cooled down quite a bit, in my case it was about 110. Then you let it set for the next 4-7 days to sour out, THEN you drain and sparge and put it into the fermenter and pitch your yeast. Normally you do a boil to halt the souring of the wort(when using this method to make beer) when you get it to the sourness you want. This method is used by a lot of beer brewers so they can make a sour beer without subjecting their fermenter to the bacteria needed to make a sour beer.

Normally the smell with this method goes like this, first day normal mash smell, Second day about 4 hours after you add the grains it starts smelling Acrid (ok so vomit is not the best word to describe the smell, its actually acrid.) 3rd day and after it gets a strong Lactic Sour smell going.

friendly butryic acid infection

there's NOTHING friendly about a butyric acid infection. Thats not what you had, no chance, because that baby diahrea smeared puke laden old crusty gymsock never turns into anything pleasant. Butterscotch sounds like diacetyl. Its considered a serious flaw in beer if you get that infection, but if it created something nice in your shine, hey, drink up!

can we get your description of the funk of your ferment? and any facts you uncovered?

[Bigbob]

Well so far(knock on wood) I hav'nt had any funky smells, but I'm thinking that this is something that happens with AGs? I know that I've read on here that you might get a 'pukey' smell for a day or two and then that goes away and all is well again. It's all very confusing

[MichiganCornhusker]

Omg, maybe the funniest post I've read here. I get smells all over the map. Definitely some baby puke. Some seem like corn champagne, some like cloudy bile. No puke on shite yet, but then again maybe I've built up tolerance. I run it all and have not been disappointed yet. Except for scorch, nothing saves scorch.

[MDH]

Try another ferment. Acidify it to a pH of 4.0 or less before fermentation. Pitch a slightly higher rate of yeast and distill as soon as the ferment slows down.

It is not abnormal for lactobacillus to grow on corn and provide smells that are slightly like fake buttered popcorn found at movies; this will disappear during fermentation.

[One Sock]

Pukey? Sulfurous sometimes, disappears after a few hours.

[still_stirrin]

FYI-

Butyric acid also known under the systematic name butanoic acid, abbreviated BTA, is a carboxylic acid with the structural formula CH3CH2CH2-COOH. Salts and esters of butyric acid are known as butyrates or butanoates. Butyric acid is found in milk, especially goat, sheep and buffalo milk, butter, Parmesan cheese, and as a product of anaerobic fermentation (including in the colon and as body odor). It has an unpleasant smell and acrid taste, with a sweetish aftertaste (similar to ether). It can be detected by mammals with good scent detection abilities (such as dogs) at 10 ppb, whereas humans can detect it in concentrations above 10 ppm. Butyric acid is present in, and is the main distinct smell of human vomit.

Lactobacillus (genus Lactobacillus), any of a group of rod-shaped, gram-positive, non-spore-forming bacteria of the family Lactobacillaceae. Similar to other genera in the family, Lactobacillus are characterized by their ability to produce lactic acid as a by-product of glucose metabolism. The organisms are widely distributed in animal feeds, silage, manure, and milk and milk products. Various species of Lactobacillus are used commercially during the production of sour milks, cheeses, and yogurt, and they have an important role in the manufacture of fermented vegetables (pickles and sauerkraut), beverages (wine and juices), sourdough breads, and some sausages.

The amount of lactic acid produced by different Lactobacillus organisms varies. In several species, including L. acidophilus, L. casei, and L. plantarum, glucose metabolism is described as homofermentative, since lactic acid is the primary byproduct, representing at least 85 percent of end metabolic products. However, in other species, such as L. brevis and L. fermentum, glucose metabolism is heterofermentative, with lactic acid making up about 50 percent of metabolic byproducts and ethanol, acetic acid, and carbon dioxide making up most of the other 50 percent. Certain other heterofermentative Lactobacillus organisms are relatively inefficient in their metabolism of glucose and must derive energy from other types of organic compounds, such as galactose, malate, or fructose.

Lactobacillus are commensal inhabitants of animal and human gastrointestinal tracts, as well as the human mouth and the vagina. Commercial preparations of lactobacilli are used as probiotics to restore normal flora after the imbalance created by antibiotic therapy.

ss

[still_stirrin]

Butrates and butonates are from troubled ferments. The resulting smells are unpleasant. The cogeners can carry over through your distill into the product, hence the consensus that they're bad and should be dumped.

Lactobacillus is probably the cause of your "baby's breath" smell. And it is common on many feed grains. So that's probably where it came from. It does sometimes reduce to esters, breaking down long sugars molecules. As the quote says, certain strains of the bacteria are necessary for proper digestion in the human body (and animals).

I'd have to say that if you use good processes in your wort preparation and aerate properly at the onset of fermentation, coupled with a healthy, active yeast culture providing the best environment for them (proper pH), that the bacterial infections will be held in check. That should keep your lactic souring and butryic acid production below thresholds.

As many have said, "garbage in....gargage out".

Cheers.
ss

[S-Cackalacky]

A thread by Brendan may help to explain the grain souring process - http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=46340 . Not that the process will exactly follow the sequence described by Brendan, but I think it's clear that in some cases that pukey smell will sometimes transition into something desirable. I guess the point is - if it smells like puke, don't immediately pour it down the drain. Give it a few days (within reason) to develop and see if it develops into a favorable lacto infection.

There's more than one way to create a sour mash. One is by using backset and another is the use of lactic acid (from lactobacillus) and there could be others that I'm not aware of. From what I glean from Brendan's thread, lactobacillus is a dominant bacteria and will eventually overcome some of the more offensive bacteria - given time.

[HDNB]

https://thechronicleflask.wordpress.com ... -molecule/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

this link was provided by another member, and seems to agree with Still stirrin' above. (thanks ss, i never thought of the encyclopedia!)

one of the first UJ's i did smelled of the remains of a college football team after a night of binge drinking and taco eating and lining up 12 deep for the outhouse. i think it was on day two of the ferment, i walked into the shop and almost puked from the first breath. it was all i could do to dump those pails and foul the pond where my septic system pumps into.

i think? that was butyric.

the last three (not in a row) were the sweet/sour baby milk burp. first was jimbo's all malt, but i gave it an overnight rest instead of following the recipe and cold crashing an pitching. it was pretty strong, i tossed it.
the next was barley/oats / corn with more heat. overnight rest per woodshed's booner's recipe medium pukey, resting on oak and it seems to be getting better. after double distillation it still smelled and tasted of puke. then it just smelled of puke, tasted ok...now it doesn't really taste of puke either (but i did get a whiff about 3 weeks ago when i first opened it)
the last was Booner's straight up. I got a really good conversion showing 7.5% so i dumped a pail off sans grain, topped up the other three pails with some hot water, let eveything cool and pitched. all took off and finished, but the 3 on grain were obviously lower ABV. they piucked up the smell after the feremnt...about day 8-10 out of the 14 total before i ran it. the single pail i ran by itself...perfection! the three on grain have been run to low wines and has introduced pukey-ness into my AG feints

everything has been sanitized over and over, and the last Booner's was without question, cooked long and hot enough to kill anything, one would think.

but enough about my problems, i'll keep looking for answers.

what smells have you guys found, and what did you do with them?

MC, you ran a picture of a lacto infection a while ago, and said there was no smell...at all? and that you scooped off the slime and ran it with success. care to add any more to that story?

[bellybuster]

I'd have to say that if you use good processes in your wort preparation and aerate properly at the onset of fermentation, coupled with a healthy, active yeast culture providing the best environment for them (proper pH), that the bacterial infections will be held in check. That should keep your lactic souring and butryic acid production below thresholds.

As many have said, "garbage in....gargage out".

Cheers.
ss

Gotta agree, add in quick ferments and anything bad will be easily held in check. Most ferments have some bacterial activity going on, the key is leaving them dwarfed by the wanted fermenting by good strong yeast. If you keep your ferments reasonably short the yeast should remain dominant over everything else.
Nice thing about fermenting for distillation is once fermentation is over, you're done.... time to distill.

[MichiganCornhusker]

MC, you ran a picture of a lacto infection a while ago, and said there was no smell...at all? and that you scooped off the slime and ran it with success. care to add any more to that story?

That batch made a fine wheat whiskey.
I only got those crazy dusty moonscapes with a bag of wheat I was using. I usually don't get anything that happens when I just use my field corn and malted barley.
I often get cloudy, sour smelling ferments when I use rye malt.
I just finished up a corn/barley/rye batch that was one of the cleanest mashes I've ever done and it started fermenting before I pitched yeast.
I'm convinced that this stuff comes in on the grains and mash temps just don't sanitize it.
I've never had anything smell god-awful, just sort of sour or a little friendly puke now and again.
I've not had any of the smells come over into the distillate.
I just did a straight up 100% corn malt mash and the fermentation was pristine. I'm using city, chlorinated water to rinse my corn, over and over, when malting, and now I have a theory that the chlorinated water is cleaning up the corn at the same time it is malting. Next time I use wheat or rye, I'm going to try giving the grains a soak in this water for a bit to see if that makes any difference.

[Phanatic]

Funny you mention this, my last bourbon wash smelled a bit "pukey", not overly so. I figured it was sulphur compounds or some such thing. A few days later the low wines taste corny, sweet and very nice. Happy about not having to ditch this batch.

[aquavita]

Don't forget about Mr. Brett.... brettanomyces - "Breh-TAN-oh-MY-sees" It's a wild yeast that can be a scourge to vinyards/vintners.

Seems this little bugger can plague the fermentation process and a bitch to get rid of.

My current Apple Brandy/Calvados batches seem to have a bit of the Brett. Slight funk going on. Can't say it smells "Bad", just that there is some funk going on. If I can get the SG down to 1.01 or less I'll run it.

[Warrior Chief]

Saw the thread title and had to check it out. Relieved to see that it is about brewing/distilling....

[MichiganCornhusker]

Don't forget about Mr. Brett.... brettanomyces - "Breh-TAN-oh-MY-sees" It's a wild yeast that can be a scourge to vinyards/vintners.
Seems this little bugger can plague the fermentation process and a bitch to get rid of.
My current Apple Brandy/Calvados batches seem to have a bit of the Brett. Slight funk going on. Can't say it smells "Bad", just that there is some funk going on. If I can get the SG down to 1.01 or less I'll run it.

Maybe that's what hit my last batch. I had a spontaneous fermentation and had a heck of a time keeping the pH up. I could only coax it down to about 1.016 before crying uncle. Running the last strip run today, all seems to be turning out ok, but looks like I lost some AVB to the wild. I would describe it the same way, not bad, but funk. No funk is coming over into spirit though.

[aquavita]

Great to hear MC.

Hoping for a clean distill here also.

[OMEGA]

Bourbon mash smells very sulfuric. I'm using a new yeast, I had a small starter of bourbon yeast by white labs. It wasn't a strong starter, in either vial, and it took 36 hours to take off. Now on day three fermentation is peaking. The temp is at 68 and it's developed a smell I've never had happen in the hundreds of mashes I've done. I've never had a bacterial infection that I didn't introduce myself. It STINKS. It's a sulfur version of the baby puke smell. I'm wondering what's going on here? The yeast is very active. Not sure if this an 18 gallon waste yet or not. :/

[Warrior Chief]

Sorry folks, I must think on a whole different plane. Title caught me off guard, again. Y'all do this sort of thing on purpose?

[carbohydratesn]

Yep. A 'sour' mash is sour generally because of bacteria. Rum backset - 'dunder' - is, in some traditions, kept in a 'dunder pit' where mold and bacteria grow on and in it. It develops complex flavors, they break down chemicals yeasts can't, and when you distill it, it all comes out clean. Distillation can give you all the perks of bacterial fermentation with none of the downsides...if you do the right things.

And figuring out what the right things are is what this thread is for!

[DAD300]

Vitamin B, over done can cause a petrol smell that takes several distillations to get rid of.

To much DAP or fermax can make for an ammonia that usually goes away during distillation.

A rum fermentation left too long can start to smell like absolute shit, but left a little longer will mellow and be good. The whole dunder pit thing is a mystery...I haven't the area to keep one yet.

I have added lacto bacillus to AG on purpose. Capsules from health food store...it adds a funk, big cap on top and then the ferment gets a sweet smell.

[Paulinka]

Trust me, you would definitely know butyric infection when you enter your fermentation room. It has a very strong stench, like a bad diarrhea mixed with vomit. Just close your eyes and you know it is a smell of sickness by human instinct. And it will not be better. If you don't trust the blinking red signal you feel then double-check, smell the ferments top. Does it makes zou sneeze? It means lots of CO2, which means a healthy work of yeasts. Or does it gives you a headache? It means a reaction to the butyric infection's hydrogen and sulfur components. It does not create a lot of CO2.

Butyric infection also makes a very thick cap with big bubbles barfing and blurping to the level, while normal fermentation has a thin cap and sizzling bubbling. I do infect my all-grain mashes routinely with lactobacilli but I make sure that they not take control, they only do their job, not taking the yeast's role. Yes, they give a baby burp smell to the mash, the strain I use adds kind of a multifruit yogurt-smell. I found it on barley husk and keep it alive on backset. Ethyllactates give a buttery-creamy mouthfeel and longer aftertaste to grain spirits, so lacto can be tamed to be a friend.

Anyway, I always feel relieved when I see artisan beers on shelves because it always comes to my mind that we distill our mashes so we can do magic from those batches that beermakers would pour down the sink with an empty sadness in their eyes. Our playground is much bigger.

[Bob Loblaw]

My last run was my first AG. It was a 51% rye blend. I was supposed to run it a week after mashing - but you know, things came up. Didn't get back to for about 3 weeks. I didn't know what was going to greet me when I finally got back to it and I figured I may just have to toss it. But I guess I got lucky. It did have an infection, but it was that sort of white moonscape like in the picture that I think MC posted. I assumed it was a lacto infection, it looked just like that anyway, and didn't have any offensive smells. I even went so far as to dip a finger in. It was a bit sour, but nothing else (and I haven't fallen ill yet, been a few days). Anyway, I went ahead and stripped it. The few times I dipped my finger into the stream during the run, it seemed like a pretty tasty drop. Definitely a different taste than any of the UJ I have run before. It'll be a while before I run the low wines, as I want to build up about 6 or 7 gallons of them before doing a spirit run. Looking forward to getting a good slug of rye onto oak. It will be interesting to see if the next run tastes any different without any lacto infection.

[MichiganCornhusker]

it was that sort of white moonscape like in the picture that I think MC posted.

I'll say that turned out to be a unique batch. It was mostly unmalted wheat with about 15% malted rye and 20% malted barley.
That moonscape was by far the craziest infection I've had. I have had some close to that, but not that far gone.
I ran that batch and the spirit tasted so much like butterscotch I thought it was just screwed up. After about a month on oak, I put one of the quarts into a regular bottle and set it aside, leaving the rest of it in jars, on oak.
Now, about 6 months later, the jars taste like a wheat whiskey, but that one bottle still tastes like butterscotch. The next time I see this dusty white condition, and I haven't in quite a while, I think I might punch it down and try to get it to go like that moonscape again and see if I can come up with an interesting flavor again.

[HDNB]

here is an interesting quote from another thread:

1.03 is a low og for your grain bill, that tells me you didn't cook the corn long enough or at a high enough temp. That would also account for it smelling like puke, you have way to much lactose working in that mash. Boil the hell out of your corn next time.

i had a bit of an "aha" moment there...i was thinking i got lousy conversion on one mash and the yeast did not have enough food to make sufficient numbers or enough booze to warn off the bacteria....

on the other i had taken the high OG wort off a few pails and refilled them with a bit of hot water to try to maximize the volume (obviously didnt work) and the more dilute pails...smelled pukey. different method of making the same mistake = same result.

i'm starting to see a pattern to my mistakes...oh yeah...recipes! why didn't i think of that!