running reflux feints in a column

[ben stiller]

I recently read that it is not practical to run reflux feints, I searched and could only find one topic from 2 years ago and some
had favorable results. So my question is for those that have run feints. Is it worth running feints and how is the product compared to the first run?

[rad14701]

I run all feints, minus foreshots... That goes for both reflux column and pot still runs... There is always some good alcohol to be had...

[likker liker]

Agreed, I save all the feints, for another day

[bearriver]

I also run all feints not including foreshots. How I use them depends on what they came from.

[humbledore]

I save feints from all grain and reflux them. I don't save the heads or tails of the reflux run, not for drinking anyway.

[Danespirit]

I reflux feints in my column, it squeeze the last bit of good product out of it.
Tails from a reflux run are tossed, they are so nasty and no worth recovering IMHO.
Heads are going to the feints jar, regardless of pot or refluxrun.

[Hound Dog]

I think what you read probably meant to not save the feints from a refluxed all feints run. If they were already feints, then you reflux them to concentrate the nasty stuff again, it's pretty rank.

Have you read this thread?
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=18823

[ben stiller]

This is the quote that I was referring to:

"What I meant was if you are doing a SPIRIT run on a reflux column - irrespective of whether your product is neutral or for example rum at 90 ABV - the feints from THAT run will be so horrible there is no use in re-running them again".

This is the thread it was discussed in:

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... s&start=30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Danespirit]

Yes Ben stiller, i had the comment from Myles in my head as you opened this thread.
He's right about what he writes in this thread.
Tails also called feints from a spiritrun on a refluxcolumn, are just horrible.
I toss them too, as they are not worth filling in a bottle.
A refluxcolumn has the ability to concentrate the fractions.
Depending on what type, they do it more or less good.
A potstill lacks this ability, so running a stripping run gives me heads and feints/tails with a lot of good ethanol in.

[Hound Dog]

I misunderstood and have to disagree then. The first quart of feints I get of tails from my column is still above 93%. Then I crank her open to collect what I can fast and that is still a lot of alcohol. The first two quarts that I consider heads on an average run are azeo. All in all, I'm not wasting that good ethanol. I collect it up until I get 14 or 15 diluted gallons and reflux it up. This yields plenty of fine clean neutral for fruit maceration drinks. Now the feints from that run are in my fire starter jug and I start over.

[Danespirit]

I have a lot less Hound Dog..but i also just run a tiny milkcanboiler..no keg.

[myles]

Ok lets add a bit of clarity here.

We are talking about a spirit run on a reflux column. If your product is neutral or azeotope then your still is doing a good job and there is very little useable ethanol in the feints. I don't even bother running the tails - i just leave them in the boiler and ditch them. Even if you are running a flavoured product like rum at 90 to 94 ABV there is very little useable product left in the feints.

You are really better off just doing a new fermentation compared to the qty of energy you need to put into the still to try and re-run those feints.

Feints from a pot still however contain a lot of salvageable spirit so I do recycle those. If you use your reflux column in pot still mode then yes you might have some salvageable spirit.

But do the calculations yourself. You can work out how much spirit is left in the boiler, heads and tails after a spirit run on a reflux column. You dilute that to make a new boiler charge, calculate warm up and stabilisation time energy requirements. Then add in the run time and calculate product yield. Then work out how much it has cost for you to recover it.

[myles]

One other thing to help put it in perspective. In the heads and tails there are other alcohols that are not ethanol. In beer circles they have developed yeasts that produce low quantities of those alcohols because you don't want to drink them. Its the same on your rectification column. You don't want to drink them.

At least one commercial distillery has said publicly that they deliberately use yeast strains to MAXIMISE the production of those higher alcohols.

WHY? Because they are distilling them as a secondary product. Profit from the sale of those alcohols is actually MORE than the profit from the sale of the ethanol.

Unfortunately its not much use to the rest of us.

[Due51]

Pot still run - Mash. Strip. Spirit run. Feints saved in a vessel
Reflux run - feints from pot still runs. Make my neutral & gin . Feints go down the toilet.

[Hound Dog]

So Myles, you run a column so efficient that it hits tails and jut drops from clean azeo right to no alcohol content? You have heads that are so compressed that they have all other compounds but not ethanol? You sir are an excellent distiller. I strive to achieve those results! Seriously I run a 20 gallon boiler. On a 15 gallon spirit run I can count on the first half quart as fores then 2 quarts heads then rock solid hearts for two gallons then I see the temp budge a tenth degree and I know tails smell will start. I will save this as high proof tails 172.2 or so is still over 94% on my meter. I have to assume most of this is ethanol. This is another quart. Then I open it up and still collect down to 20% or so. So that's a lot of ethanol for feints from my column. Collect these and they make a good neutral. My column doesn't go from 0% to 95% back to 0%.
This is just freindly banter. Everyone has their own way of doing things.

[rad14701]

I always have enough Heads and Tails from a reflux run to save up for a feints only run... It may take a while to amass enough but I'll take every ounce of alcohol I can squeeze out of what I have fermented... At the tails end of my reflux runs I don't bother trying to re-stabilize for a few more ounces of neutral, I just open the needle valve and collect what little I can... Temp is usually in the 204F - 208F range, or maybe a bit lower, with no reflux... It all adds up over time...

I'm also not the average household that throws away $500 worth of food per year... If I buy it I'm damned sure gonna eat it before it goes bad... Leftovers don't go to waste either... Would people who live with that mentality take that same cut in pay...??? I think not...!!! I don't buy anything with intentions of having it wear out prematurely, nor simply throwing it away when I'm bored with it...

[BentJar]

I save all feints from a potstill run and all heads and early tails from a reflux run. I run my % down to 20 so my backset is not too high in alcohol as I am using it too lower ph in the next ferment.

When I have 2 or 3 gallons, I reflux that and chunk what I don't keep in the cuts. Simple

[Bushman]

I have only run an all feints run once or twice, usually my feints go into the column with my 2nd, 3rd, et. generations. I do this mainly as I don't want to store large quantities of alcohol for runs.

[still_stirrin]

I have only run an all feints run once or twice, usually my feints go into the column with my 2nd, 3rd, et. generations. I do this mainly as I don't want to store large quantities of alcohol for runs.

Ditto that.
ss

[myles]

Funny one Hound Dog. Not what i said at all. There is some ethanol there, its just not worth processing compared to preparing a fresh fermentation.

Trying to separate out the last portion of ethanol from other alcohols just isn't worth the effort. Same principle on the strip run. I leave a little bit of alcohol in the boiler because it just isn't worth the time and energy input that it will take to get it out.

[Bushman]

Funny one Hound Dog. Not what i said at all. There is some ethanol there, its just not worth processing compared to preparing a fresh fermentation.

Trying to separate out the last portion of ethanol from other alcohols just isn't worth the effort. Same principle on the strip run. I leave a little bit of alcohol in the boiler because it just isn't worth the time and energy input that it will take to get it out.

Plus if your doing a sour mash then your going to carry some of the alcohol over into the next fermentation.

[Hound Dog]

Funny one Hound Dog. Not what i said at all. There is some ethanol there, its just not worth processing compared to preparing a fresh fermentation.

Trying to separate out the last portion of ethanol from other alcohols just isn't worth the effort. Same principle on the strip run. I leave a little bit of alcohol in the boiler because it just isn't worth the time and energy input that it will take to get it out.

You guys talking about feints (I consider heads and tails feints) or backset (left over in the boiler after the run)? I was referring to heads and tails with a percentage of more than 90%. As for backset, no that nasty stuff gets dumped in the woods.

[Bushman]

True Hound dog, some only consider tails for feints. I was referring to myles' comment about not worth squeezing every last drop out of the boiler.

[myles]

Feints = heads and tails mixed together.

Now off my pot still the feints are mostly ethanol contaminated with other stinky alcohols and ARE worth re-processing.

They get run through my VM packed column which separates out MOST of the ethanol at 95% for use as a feedstock for infused products. That run creates its own heads (still containing some ethanol) collected drip by drip at low power and high reflux ratio (<10% of the total alcohol yield) and some stinky tails that I don't even bother to collect.

Yes you can collect those heads and tails, dilute them and re-run but I don't bother. The %age of ethanol left mixed in with the other alcohols is by this stage really quite low. To collect these you have to run at very high reflux ratios to try and separate the ethanol from the other alcohols. I would rather just ditch them and spend the same amount of time taking hearts from a fresh run - but each to their own.

For comparison on a reflux column if you wish to extract azeo from a clean ethanol / water mix from a boiler charge of 1% ABV, you need a reflux ratio of approx 17 compared to less than 8 with a 20% ABV boiler charge. (0.5% ABV and you need a reflux ratio of about 65.) Add in other alcohols and your reflux ratios need to be even higher. High reflux ratio = longer run time = more energy used.

On a strip run I collect until the vapour temperature hits 98 deg C and then switch off the heat. I leave the condenser running for another hour, just working off the residual heat in the boiler. Yes I probably leave 2 to 5 % alcohol in the boiler but to be honest the cost of heat provided to extract it makes it (for me) not worth it.

Heads and Tails are very variable. What makes them worth re-running all depends on what %age of ethanol they contain compared to the %age of other alcohols.

[pulsetech]

When running rum for example I save the tails from every run and add it to the next rum run. Lots of flavour in them. They don't seem to build up either. The heads from all my runs get saved for neutral runs.

[myles]

When running rum for example I save the tails from every run and add it to the next rum run. Lots of flavour in them. They don't seem to build up either. The heads from all my runs get saved for neutral runs.

Are you splitting your tails into different sections with the rum? Have you seen the topics on "Rum Oils" ?

[Yummyrum]

I run a 2" VM/LM combo reflux .....TPWs or Weetbix all bran washes
I run it quite slow but in reality I have bugger all maybe 300-400 mls of heads that are worth recycling and maybe around 150 mls of tailsy shit that I would consider recycling before the totally putrid concentrated tails happens and I shut it off .

I used to fuck around compressing tails but don't even bother now .As soon as they start becoming apparent , I quit the run .

I agree with Myles that its just not worth the time or Electricity bill to extract that last drops . If I haven't used the heads for cleaning or fire lighting purposes before the next run , I'll throw them in but I'm not anal about collecting them .

I used to Reflux still my Rum Pot still Heads and tails to make a nice Light white Rum but have recently been adding them back to the next Pot still spirit Run.