The old Brass Question

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Thehoff69
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The old Brass Question

Post by Thehoff69 »

Hi Guys,

Im just about to run my first mash, after building my still i realized i have used a brass connection on my still lid to connect to my 10mm copper pipe condenser.

This was given to my my the plumping shop as the best solution to connect the two parts.

Is this safe to use?
I have read here that it is, but some say its not. confused!!

I have run the still with water and get a metal taste.
some say to pickle the brass, but ive read that pickling will degrade the brass.. and make unsafe.

Thanks in Advance
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moosemilk
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by moosemilk »

Pickle it. You don't want to leave it so long it turns black. If it does go black you gotta scrub it clean and pickle again. Never had any problems with integrity on my brass fitting. Shouldn't be any pressure to worry about that anyways.
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by BentJar »

New brass is supposed t be lead free but if you are concerned, pickle it for 5 minutes.
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still_stirrin
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by still_stirrin »

BentJar wrote:New brass is supposed t be lead free but if you are concerned, pickle it for 5 minutes.
Hoff,

Here's a quick explaination for you....http://powersbrewery.com/pickling-brass/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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cranky
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by cranky »

Personally I have found this to be the best solution
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =2&t=39820
No brass, no worry.
Justafarmer
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by Justafarmer »

When I built my rig a couple of years ago, I used brass fittings labeled as "lead free" for the smaller ones. I did a little legwork and found stainless for a couple of larger ones.
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pfshine
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by pfshine »

10mm seems kinda small. Is that id or od? Don't forget to do the vinegar and sacrificial alcohol runs before your real runs.
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Thehoff69
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by Thehoff69 »

Id or od? Please explain? Is a 10mm copper pipe straight into 15 lt stock pot.

I've done a water run and it worked great, do I need to run vinegar? The first time or before every run?
I was hoping to just throw away my fores and heads on the first run and keep hearts and tails to add to my second gen of UJSSM.
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pfshine
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by pfshine »

Id = inside diameter. Od= outside diameter. So is it 10mm inside the pipe or outside? Next question the initial cleaning runs are needed unless you want to spend 24 hours in the bathroom shooting bodily fluids out of every orifice. They are only needed on new builds and modifications or if you let your still set for a long time. I think a little more reading would do you wonders. Find cranky's spoon feeding post.
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cranky
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by cranky »

pfshine wrote:I think a little more reading would do you wonders. Find cranky's spoon feeding post.
What he said ^^^^
Here is the spoon feeding post
http://ww.homedistiller.org/forum/viewt ... 52975//url" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
It is also the first link in my signature.
The reason this is being suggested is there seem to be some pretty basic things you are missing and as my signature says We want you to be safe and successful. Wait until you see some of the crap that will come out of your still on those cleaning runs, even when you can't see it it could make you violently ill. Safety first is important. One last thing, I hope you didn't use turbo yeast.
Thehoff69
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by Thehoff69 »

Guys,

Vinegar run on right now!!

When I run my first wash to clean, can I still use the backset to help my 2 gen ferment?

I used bread yeast.. The wash is sitting at 7% and tastes really nice and clean, albeit sweet.
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pfshine
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by pfshine »

As for using the backset, short answer no. Not to be rude but would you use water you clean your engine with to drink. Just get a cheap box of wine and use that for your alcohol cleaning Run. Save the good stuff for your actual run.
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cranky
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by cranky »

pfshine wrote:As for using the backset, short answer no. Not to be rude but would you use water you clean your engine with to drink. Just get a cheap box of wine and use that for your alcohol cleaning Run. Save the good stuff for your actual run.
Again, what he ^^^^ said.
cheap vodka watered down or some cheap wine. Save the stuff you worked so hard to make for keeper runs.
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cranky
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by cranky »

I also have to add a note of caution about your tubing. Even if it is 10mm Inside Diameter (I.D.) it is a bit small. What size is your boiler? You are going to need to run pretty slow with pipe that small or you will pressurize the boiler and blow seals. It is also a safety thing because the collapsing vapor will tend to block the incoming air causing problems as well as the potential issue of puking and clogging so you will have to make sure the wash is pretty clear and again run slow and pay attention to potential problems.
Thehoff69
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by Thehoff69 »

I've just made a concoction from the drinks cabnet.. Just as you said cranky.. Watered down to 10%. Then added crap wine I was saving to cook with.. I'll run it as soon as vinegar is finished.. Be a good test first alcohol test for my still

Thanks guys
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Thehoff69
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by Thehoff69 »

Cranky.. I will run slow.. Boiler is 15lt stock pot with binder clips to hold it down..
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by Danespirit »

pfshine wrote:10mm seems kinda small. Is that id or od? Don't forget to do the vinegar and sacrificial alcohol runs before your real runs.
+1 Pfshine

A pipe that small would be prone to clogging up...that would indeed result in a dangerous situation...! :thumbdown:
You would be better off with a larger dimension for that pipe...
New brass connectors are lead free.. Already in the 90's regulations were made for any connection in watersupply plumbing.
Anyhow..if you look on E-bay..you get stainless steel compressionfittings thrown at you for a few dollars..with free shipping!
So why use this brass thing..??
You don't need a vinegar run EVERY time..
The vinegar run and sacrificial run are done on a new still only, but are not optional..they are MANDATORY..!
Please take a look at the link in my signature, it provides you with basic knowledge about distilling.
There is nothing wrong with your stockpot...but please change the pipe dimension for something more safe.. :wink:
Thehoff69
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by Thehoff69 »

Any recommendations of what size of copper pipe? I thought 10 mm was the biggest I could get in coil format
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by Antler24 »

I read an article when researching this subject during my build. I use a 1/2" union and decided to NOT picke it. The article I read showed a test done on a brass union before pickling. I can't remember the numbers but there was very very little lead exposed, like minuscule, nothing that could pose any harm.
After pickling the same way is practiced by this forum, the lead content of the same piece of brass multiplied several times over. Apparently the "pickling" process removes the top layer or coating on the fitting, and exposes the raw untreated lead in the fitting. The lead content I think was still too low do ever harm a human under normal circumstances, but it did go up quite a bit.

Now I ask anyone wondering what to do to do your own research, maybe even find that article, I can't for the life of me find it again, but weigh the pros and cons and make your own decision. I'm not saying either way is better, but I decided I didn't want to pickle it.
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by cranky »

Thehoff69 wrote:Any recommendations of what size of copper pipe? I thought 10 mm was the biggest I could get in coil format
13mm I.D. would be the smallest I would recommend but I also don't recommend coils. I like a liebig made with 1/2" (13mm) I.D. pipe inside a 3/4 (19mm) water jacket and run a fountain pump to circulate the water. I recently bought a coil of 1/2" O.D. tubing which has 7/16 I.D. and another that is 5/8" O.D. which is roughly 1/2" I.D. but I find coils to be a pain in the ass myself. I bought these because they were cheap and are probably destined for use in wind chimes, not stills.
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by cranky »

Antler24 wrote:I read an article when researching this subject during my build. I use a 1/2" union and decided to NOT picke it. The article I read showed a test done on a brass union before pickling. I can't remember the numbers but there was very very little lead exposed, like minuscule, nothing that could pose any harm.
After pickling the same way is practiced by this forum, the lead content of the same piece of brass multiplied several times over. Apparently the "pickling" process removes the top layer or coating on the fitting, and exposes the raw untreated lead in the fitting. The lead content I think was still too low do ever harm a human under normal circumstances, but it did go up quite a bit.

Now I ask anyone wondering what to do to do your own research, maybe even find that article, I can't for the life of me find it again, but weigh the pros and cons and make your own decision. I'm not saying either way is better, but I decided I didn't want to pickle it.
I read that same study and I recall the lead content was significantly higher after pickling, far too high. However that was old brass and is why the used building materials place I go to won't sell used facets. Modern brass intended for use in water is as lead free as the copper we use. However there is still a lot of old brass out there that was produced under a different standard and does contain trace amounts of lead. My local Ace hardware sold brass fittings that were intended for non potable water use and had a caution on them saying such. If somebody just wanted to get rid of inventory all they had to do was take the caution tag off and nobody would be the wiser. Not saying this is your case, just something to be aware of.
Thehoff69
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by Thehoff69 »

Thanks for the advice guys.
I did read the article your all talking about that was why I asked for all your twists on the subject.
The brass fitting was bought from a friends shop, and he was well aware of what I was using it for!! Lol

Just completed my vinegar run and my first cleaning run with my concoction!

Collected 4 jars 1st 55% 2nd 40% 3rd 30% and stopped when 4th was coming at 20%

All good and no leaks..

Will look into a better build and a bigger condenser .. 15 mm will fit straight on to my still lid.

My washes take ages so I'll probably only be running it every 2 weeks or so.

Thanks for all the great passionate info
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by rad14701 »

Thehoff69 wrote:The brass fitting was bought from a friends shop, and he was well aware of what I was using it for!! Lol
That doesn't mean he understands the safety risks associated with distillation and lead... High temperature high proof alcohol leeches lead from brass far faster than hot water... Are you 100% sure he knows this...??? NEVER assume that anyone else you know understands the many facets of this hobby, even if they participate in it... Many long time distillers come here and discover that there is a lot they still don't know... Some have gotten very lucky multiple times over the years, avoiding catastrophe, without even knowing...
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by Thehoff69 »

I'll ask for certs on his fittings. He is the leading plumber supply in the area.

Below is photo of the fitting, and I removed the rubber seal.
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by myles »

I like to use brass fittings and never pickle any, there are other alternative methods. Plus virtually all brass these days is lead free anyway.

Simplest is to drill out the depth stops so the copper passes straight through. The brass is then functional but not exposed to vapour. Or you can line bigger fittings or simply solder over the inner surface.

Brass or stainless is in some fittings just cosmetic preference.
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by hexed »

To be considered "Lead free," it is less than 0.25% lead, which is not always "lead free."

I coated my 2" male brass connector with silver solder. I think that's a good alternative, no?
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by bearriver »

I'm going to quote myself from another thread.
bearriver wrote: I would consider using brass if it passes a lead kit, and is not made in China or India. But that my personal choice, and others will feel differently. If it needs regular pickling I give it a BIG thumb down.

Here is an excellent article from an Oregon doctor, full of lead related data: http://www.itmonline.org/arts/lead.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

25 parts per million are very low levels. Even if all the lead somehow managed to leach from the fitting and into your product, it would still be insignificant by today's standards. Take the weight of your fitting, say, 229 grams being over half of a pound, which is probably heavier than your fitting actually is.

229 grams / 1,000,000 x 25 = 0.005725 grams, or 5.725 milligrams.

That means a half pound brass fitting w/ 25ppm lead contains 5.7 mg of lead. If you somehow managed to consume all the lead in that fitting at once, it would represent less than 2 weeks worth of the lead you are already naturally consuming everyday. Of which, is practically nothing.
Subhuti Dharmananda wrote:A total daily lead exposure (inhaled and consumed lead) of 0.5 mg per day of lead appears normal in a relatively clean environment today.
I can't tell you with any certainty that it is safe, that is a personal distinction. If it were me and I already owned it, then I'd use it and not give a second thought to it...
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by hexed »

Still, use SS or raw copper if possible. With amazon, ebay, etc, there is no reason not to get the correct raw copper fitting for your usage.

I sourced full copper unions locally.. took me a few days, but I found them. I didn't want to chance the cheapo brass ones.

I have one brass fitting in my entire still. It's the 2" female adapter which I coated fully with silver solder. It is at the beginning of my column as well so all the lead contaminates, if any, should fall back in to the distillate. But there shouldn't be any since I coated the entire thing in silver solder. I have since found a proper raw copper female 2" adapter that I will put on my new pot top.
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by Hound Dog »

bearriver wrote:I'm going to quote myself from another thread.
bearriver wrote: I would consider using brass if it passes a lead kit, and is not made in China or India. But that my personal choice, and others will feel differently. If it needs regular pickling I give it a BIG thumb down.

Here is an excellent article from an Oregon doctor, full of lead related data: http://www.itmonline.org/arts/lead.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

25 parts per million are very low levels. Even if all the lead somehow managed to leach from the fitting and into your product, it would still be insignificant by today's standards. Take the weight of your fitting, say, 229 grams being over half of a pound, which is probably heavier than your fitting actually is.

229 grams / 1,000,000 x 25 = 0.005725 grams, or 5.725 milligrams.

That means a half pound brass fitting w/ 25ppm lead contains 5.7 mg of lead. If you somehow managed to consume all the lead in that fitting at once, it would represent less than 2 weeks worth of the lead you are already naturally consuming everyday. Of which, is practically nothing.
Subhuti Dharmananda wrote:A total daily lead exposure (inhaled and consumed lead) of 0.5 mg per day of lead appears normal in a relatively clean environment today.
I can't tell you with any certainty that it is safe, that is a personal distinction. If it were me and I already owned it, then I'd use it and not give a second thought to it...
Great post Bear. :thumbup:
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Thehoff69
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Re: The old Brass Question

Post by Thehoff69 »

Thanks bear.. I will continue to use the brass fitting until I start my new build.
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