Distilling advice

[Hanson423]

I was reading Taters post "Distilling Adive" I tried using the search tool but I was not able to find anything.
Maybe I missed it but I didn't see anything. Anyway this is what he said
"Catch some of the output and rub it between and all over your hands.
Move your hands from arms length toward your face, see how close you have to get to smell it.
Feel how fast it evaporates.
Feel when you rub it between your hands whether it feels oily or slippery (like soap) or scrunchy. "

What should moonshine smell and taste like? I've had apple pie shine but I've never had plain shine.
What should shine feel like?
These might be silly questions but I would appreciate any help.
I'm assuming shine does tast like your normal whisky.

[still_stirrin]

Do you know what "white whiskey" tastes like? Do you know what it smells like? It sounds like you need to establish your paradigms.

I suggest you start reading Cranky's spoon feed thread (see my signature line). Also, there is a link to the HD Google search "how to". Have a read of that too.
ss

[DAD300]

If it's sugar...it should be something like vodka or white rum (it is white rum), depending on the "cuts" it may be a lot like vodka.

If it's corn or grain based it may be sweet, sour, harsh or very smooth. Again it has a lot to do with cuts.

Don't go buy a bottle of MOONSHINE at the liquor store...most of it is crap. You will or can do better.

[Hanson423]

If it's sugar...it should be something like vodka or white rum (it is white rum), depending on the "cuts" it may be a lot like vodka.

If it's corn or grain based it may be sweet, sour, harsh or very smooth. Again it has a lot to do with cuts.

Don't go buy a bottle of MOONSHINE at the liquor store...most of it is crap. You will or can do better.

Thank you. Could you tell me what it should feel like?

[Hound Dog]

You will not taste whiskey straight off a still the tastes like whiskey you bought. That was aged and bottled. If you want "moonshine" just take everything off the still, don't make any cuts and throw it in a jar. The resulting nasty taste will induce your gag reflex and make people think "moonshine". Meanwhile, strive to make a vodka if you don't want to age much. Make a whiskey but let it settle a couple months even if drinking it white before you draw any conclusions.

[rgreen2002]

Don't go buy a bottle of MOONSHINE at the liquor store...most of it is crap. You will or can do better.

+1 there!

When I was starting out I bought a bunch of liquors to "compare". I picked up a bottle of Tim Smith's Moonshine to compare my product. It tasted nothing like mine so I thought I was doing something wrong.

A few years later I can taste the tails in that crap and I have a bottle of store bought I don't know what to do with.

You will not taste whiskey straight off a still the tastes like whiskey you bought. That was aged and bottled. If you want "moonshine" just take everything off the still, don't make any cuts and throw it in a jar. The resulting nasty taste will induce your gag reflex and make people think "moonshine". Meanwhile, strive to make a vodka if you don't want to age much. Make a whiskey but let it settle a couple months even if drinking it white before you draw any conclusions.

+1 Hound Dog!

The product that comes off the still really isn't the product you will end up with. As others have alluded to here the taste will be in the cuts...one of the hardest parts of the craft to both understand and master. Be sure to read the spoon feeding that we all tout. You know its important when many people independently tell you to look at it. During that time you will come to the thread "Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)" here: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 40&start=0 This will help you understand your question and the answer.

When you wrote

..."Catch some of the output and rub it between and all over your hands.
Move your hands from arms length toward your face, see how close you have to get to smell it.
Feel how fast it evaporates.
Feel when you rub it between your hands whether it feels oily or slippery (like soap) or scrunchy. "

You forgot the following line:
"Learn to recognize how those feelings correspond to smell and taste and to how it burns."
Knowing the product uses all your senses and the quote (I think its either from or included in "The Home Distiller's Workbook" by Jeff King - a book I don't highly recommend) basically means compare all the input to know your product.
The product looks, smells, tastes, feels different at different times in the run and with different starting products so you can see why it is difficult to answer you questions.

Start with the links in my signature and work sequentially... it will start to fall into place. IMHO

Good Luck, have fun and be safe - it's what this place is all about!

[Hound Dog]

By the way, if you are running a reflux still and pulling off high proof liquor, be ready to use the wife's hand lotion after you are done. I keep dipping my finger in the stream to get a smell and an occasional little taste off my fingertip. It sucks the oils right out of your skin. Dries my finger out and cracks it sometimes. Seeing what it does to my finger is good reason to not drink straight high proof!

[steelmb]

... The resulting nasty taste will induce your gag reflex and make people think "moonshine". ...

That is a matter of opinion. I single distill with a pot still, put the foreshots in the windshield washer of my car, collect down to 15%, mix it all together and put it through my wine aerator when bottling and am good to go. It is around 50% abv and tastes good immediately but sometimes does improve slightly after sitting a couple months. I suppose my palette may not be as discerning as others here but I, my girlfriend and other friends enjoy it this way so have no intentions of changing my procedure. Before letting many of the vocal ones here convince you that their way is the only way, go ahead and give this a try. If you don't like the result you can always throw it back in the still and do a spirit run and you have lost nothing. I use good ingredients with a good recipe that in my opinion produces a fine product on a single run with no cuts. Be your own judge.

[Bigbob]

I agree with steelmb to a point. I also make my sweet feed in a single run. Have always gotten good reviews, but I'm very strict in my cuts. Taters advice on distilling is my go to, taste,touch, and most of all, smell.

[MitchyBourbon]

... The resulting nasty taste will induce your gag reflex and make people think "moonshine". ...

That is a matter of opinion. I single distill with a pot still, put the foreshots in the windshield washer of my car, collect down to 15%, mix it all together and put it through my wine aerator when bottling and am good to go. It is around 50% abv and tastes good immediately but sometimes does improve slightly after sitting a couple months. I suppose my palette may not be as discerning as others here but I, my girlfriend and other friends enjoy it this way so have no intentions of changing my procedure. Before letting many of the vocal ones here convince you that their way is the only way, go ahead and give this a try. If you don't like the result you can always throw it back in the still and do a spirit run and you have lost nothing. I use good ingredients with a good recipe that in my opinion produces a fine product on a single run with no cuts. Be your own judge.

Well said, you should post more often.

I also keep a small portion white and one run. I don't use tatters method, but it's not far off. What ever method you use it should involve all your senses and you should be consistent about it. In time you will be able to tell very accurately what it might taste like after aging, or if it would be a good candidate as a one or two run white dog.

As for, what is it supposed to taste like? It is supposed to taste like something you'd enjoy. If it don't... keep working at it till it does. That might mean working on cuts, ingredients, fermentation, aging or what not. You'll get there.

[Bigbob]

... The resulting nasty taste will induce your gag reflex and make people think "moonshine". ...

That is a matter of opinion. I single distill with a pot still, put the foreshots in the windshield washer of my car, collect down to 15%, mix it all together and put it through my wine aerator when bottling and am good to go. It is around 50% abv and tastes good immediately but sometimes does improve slightly after sitting a couple months. I suppose my palette may not be as discerning as others here but I, my girlfriend and other friends enjoy it this way so have no intentions of changing my procedure. Before letting many of the vocal ones here convince you that their way is the only way, go ahead and give this a try. If you don't like the result you can always throw it back in the still and do a spirit run and you have lost nothing. I use good ingredients with a good recipe that in my opinion produces a fine product on a single run with no cuts. Be your own judge.

Well said, you should post more often.



As for, what is it supposed to taste like? It is supposed to taste like something you'd enjoy. If it don't... keep working at it till it does. That might mean working on cuts, ingredients, fermentation, aging or what not. You'll get there.

+100!

[Hank Reardon]

What should moonshine smell and taste like?

I'm assuming shine does tast like your normal whisky.

The best thing about the hobby is that there really is only one person to please. So, take the time to learn what you like, and work on improving it. You really aren't required to please people, nor are you required to only do what someone else says works. Hell, the last time I went to a liquor store, there were more bourbons than I could count. And, I can count to 20.5 when I'm naked.

My answer to your question is, do you like what your product tastes like? If not, you should ask how to improve it by specifically describing how you fermented it, distilled it, cut it, and aged it (if any).

If you do like your product, you should show up at a meet n greet and ask how you can improve it. You will likely have some new best practices to employ when you get home. Of course, I would be negligent to not mention that my product probably sucks, and I need the same advice.

[Hound Dog]

I agree with steelmb to a point. I also make my sweet feed in a single run. Have always gotten good reviews, but I'm very strict in my cuts. Taters advice on distilling is my go to, taste,touch, and most of all, smell.

Bigbob, you agree to not do any cuts and mix it ll together, but you say you are strict with cuts? Single runs can be fine if you cut right but the OP asked about "moonshine" which is usually just straight uncut everything thrown together. I know guys that make it and a few that force it down. People buy Georgia Moon and other such swill in the liquor store too. I am just a firm believer that cuts are important even if steelmb's "opinion" is that they are not.

[MichiganCornhusker]

I haven't been at this long enough to have any Firm Beliefs but I will toss in my "opinion".

Run it as you like. Cut it as you will.
It's your hooch, you get to choose.

I've done lots of one-and-dones with rum, cherries, Froot Loops, and maple.
I've done lots of whiskeys, run once and also triple distilled all with full flavor.

I've done close hearts cuts and also kept everything but fores.
I doubt that I'll be convinced that there is one right way to do it.

My advice, Hanson, is to do many runs, different ways, and use Tater's suggestions to evaluate the differences.
As for "what is shine?", well that is a whole 'nother can o worms.

[Bigbob]

I agree with steelmb to a point. I also make my sweet feed in a single run. Have always gotten good reviews, but I'm very strict in my cuts. Taters advice on distilling is my go to, taste,touch, and most of all, smell.

Bigbob, you agree to not do any cuts and mix it ll together, but you say you are strict with cuts? Single runs can be fine if you cut right but the OP asked about "moonshine" which is usually just straight uncut everything thrown together. I know guys that make it and a few that force it down. People buy Georgia Moon and other such swill in the liquor store too. I am just a firm believer that cuts are important even if steelmb's "opinion" is that they are not.

I agree that you can make good spirits with one run. The 'to a point' was that to make good spirits you must make good cuts. I'm also agreeing with MCH that if we start with what moonshine is, then the can of worms is open!

[Chucker]

I just what to know exactly what sort of liquor store will let you run around naked to count their bourbon brands .

As soon as I start getting flow I back off the heat to limit takeoff until I at least get past fores (depending if I'm running pot mode or applying some reflux). As soon as it starts to make a steady stream I feel and smell it as a reference point. I'm usually running a corn based sugarhead wash. It'll feel oily, slippery, and it will smell like a mix of fruit, nail polish remover, and alcohol, but mostly fruity. Those components are acetone and ethyl acetate that smell so strongly.
As it progresses and begins to lose the oily feel the smell will transition to a more medicinal, alcohol odor. And the evaporation characteristic of alcohol will become more noticeable.
Even with a 10 gal charge the volume isn't very much. As the transition finishes I'll change from scrap collection to a recycle collection. During this phase I want to be sure of my transition so I'd rather err on the side of collecting a bit too much for recycle before transitioning to product. By this time I need to sample by taste of a diluted sample. I don't want to drink it but do need to make sure that I get the back and sides of tongue covered as I'm looking for an astringent characteristic to disappear. There may well be some taste, depending on the wash, if this is strip or spirit, and how I'm running. But I'm trying to establish a good collection point based on which alcohols are coming over, not taste. Discerning between those two is the part that takes lots of practice.
Once I'm collecting the main body of the run I continue to do so until I'm getting about 50% alc coming off. Once I've got it running smooth in partial reflux mode I have a pretty good idea where that will be based on column temp. If I'm stripping I'll run till it goes cloudy and the only part I care about getting rid of is the fores at the beginning. And even then I don't need to be that cautious about it until I do the spirit run.

[steelmb]

... Run it as you like. Cut it as you will.
It's your hooch, you get to choose....

You are exactly 100% right!

It's just that on the forums here, there seems to be an "Old Boy's Club" who insist on everyone doing things their way. If you dare to discuss anything that they consider different or a shortcut, in their opinion, you get ostracized. I have been told that I make "relative crap" and that my practices are "slather-assed". They will say these things without even tasting my product. I enjoy my product. My friends enjoy my product. That is good enough for me. I have tried the cuts thing and for me it is not worth the hassle, extra work and extra cost. I have not tasted their product but I am sure it is quite drinkable. I do however feel that there may be something wrong with their recipe, ingredients or process to have to go through all that extra trouble and expense to end up with a drinkable product. Either that, or our palettes are just that much different, or possibly I am satisfied with an inferior product. I don't suppose we will actually know unless we can get together and try each other's stuff. I would love to do that! I wouldn't let the distance stop be but would not chance trying to bring anything across the border either. If anyone is ever in Manitoba, stop by. I have had compliments from other distillers as well as long time hooch drinkers. I have been told "it is as good as any thing they have had".

My way is certainly not the only way of "gettin er done", but I am happy with it . I believe MCH may have said it best. "It's your hooch, you get to choose."

[Hanson423]

... Run it as you like. Cut it as you will.
It's your hooch, you get to choose....

You are exactly 100% right!

It's just that on the forums here, there seems to be an "Old Boy's Club" who insist on everyone doing things their way. If you dare to discuss anything that they consider different or a shortcut, in their opinion, you get ostracized. I have been told that I make "relative crap" and that my practices are "slather-assed". They will say these things without even tasting my product. I enjoy my product. My friends enjoy my product. That is good enough for me. I have tried the cuts thing and for me it is not worth the hassle, extra work and extra cost. I have not tasted their product but I am sure it is quite drinkable. I do however feel that there may be something wrong with their recipe, ingredients or process to have to go through all that extra trouble and expense to end up with a drinkable product. Either that, or our palettes are just that much different, or possibly I am satisfied with an inferior product. I don't suppose we will actually know unless we can get together and try each other's stuff. I would love to do that! I wouldn't let the distance stop be but would not chance trying to bring anything across the border either. If anyone is ever in Manitoba, stop by. I have had compliments from other distillers as well as long time hooch drinkers. I have been told "it is as good as any thing they have had".

My way is certainly not the only way of "gettin er done", but I am happy with it . I believe MCH may have said it best. "It's your hooch, you get to choose."

Would you mind explaining your process of how you do it to me?

[jb-texshine]

Hanson, honest advice: DON'T DRINK LOW WINES!
Make decent cuts and enjoy a hangover free life.

[steelmb]

Hanson, honest advice: DON'T DRINK LOW WINES!
Make decent cuts and enjoy a hangover free life.

My God man, would it kill you and the rest of the "good ol boys" to let people try it. Are you afraid that more people might happen to like it? You guys need to stop the fear mongering. He has nothing to lose by trying it because as I said earlier, if he does not like the results he can just take what you call "low wines" and I call "finished product", throw it back in the still and do a spirit run. He will have not lost anything by trying it. Honestly, dealing with you guys is just like trying to get little kids to eat something new or different. They won't eat it, nor do they want the other kids present at the table to eat it for fear of making them look bad.

Mom: "Just try it"
Kid: "No!"
Mom: "Why not?"
Kid: "I don't like it"
Dad: "How do you know you don't like it? You have never even tried it."
Brother picks up his fork and goes to try it.
Kid: Mikey don't eat it. It's yucky!
Mom: "What makes you think it's yucky?"
Kid: "I can smell it and I know it's yucky"
Dad: "Go to bed and you don't get any supper"

You and the rest of the Old Boys Club need to go to bed with no hooch. LOL.

As far as hangovers go, I haven gotten tight on this stuff on a number of occasions and have never had a hangover.

My apologies to the OP since it appears that your thread has been hijacked. Oh, and by the way you will be getting mail.

[Hound Dog]

The "good 'ol boys" are the ones who drink the uncut crap low wines. I know a few of them. The rest of us are making liquor. No one said you can't drink what you want. The guy asked advice. It was given. Heck, in India, cow piss sells for more than milk. Some people will drink anything!

[Mikey-moo]

Mom: "Just try it"
Kid: "No!"
Mom: "Why not?"
Kid: "I don't like it"
Dad: "How do you know you don't like it? You have never even tried it."
Brother picks up his fork and goes to try it.
Kid: Mikey don't eat it. It's yucky!
Mom: "What makes you think it's yucky?"
Kid: "I can smell it and I know it's yucky"
Dad: "Go to bed and you don't get any supper"

+1 - can confirm

[steelmb]

I really think it is imprudent for you guys to sit back over there, hide behind your computer screen and attack what I am doing and call what I make "crap" without even tasting it. It really does show how juvenile you guys actually are. I really thought a forum like this was about sharing ideas and exchanging information, not about name calling. You have your opinion and that's fine with me, as my way is not the only way, same as your way is not the only way. You can explain how you prefer to do things without attacking what I am doing. Of course it would take an open minded adult with with some intellect to behave in such a manner not a school yard bully.

[MichiganCornhusker]

I really thought a forum like this was about sharing ideas and exchanging information, not about name calling.

Just look past the name calling and that's what we got here, an interesting discussion about making whiskey.

Honestly, all this back and forth has got me thinking, so I'm going to do a little experimenting with my next run.
I'm going to collect some of it right off the pipe, after fores, down to 15%, or 90 proof average abv for the lot, whichever comes first, and put it in a bottle.
I'm also going to save the same run in small jars, air out, do cuts, and blend to 90 proof and put it in a bottle.
And then I'm gonna take whats left, do a spirit run, and repeat the process. I'll end up with several bottles from the same mash, each cut and blended in different ways.

If we take the personal attacks out of this discussion, there really is no argument. Y'all are just talking about cuts.
I know lots of folks on here only do one run for whiskey. I doubt they care if you call their whiskey "low wines".
We all make cuts, steelmb apparently has a recipe and protocol down to where he's happy blending everything, heads to tails. I don't feel threatened by that.

Instead of making that sound like a madman hick's approach to making spirits, why wouldn't we encourage that as a goal?
I do believe that if you use good grains, perform a solid mashing routine, manage a clean fermentation and run it right, you don't end up with a bunch of nasty heads and tails.

After reading this argument in another thread a few weeks ago, I bottled up some of my "low wines" from a corn malt whiskey I was running.
It was everything, minus fores, that I stripped out of my ferment and ended up with an average abv of 90 proof. I took it to Butch's gathering a couple weeks ago and all who tasted it said nice things about it.
Not one person went running to retch in the bushes.
As far as I'm concerned, making one-run no-cuts whiskey is possible. I liked it so much that I kept 4 bottles, white.

All that said, I wouldn't suggest a rookie start out that way. I've had many many runs where the heads were just vile and would have ruined a whiskey blended that way.
I've had tails that stunk to high heaven, that also would have destroyed a blend.
If you end up with a recipe that is reliable and you can collect everything for the bottle, that's great, go for it.
But starting out, there is much to be learned from collecting in small jars, airing out, selecting jars, learning what heads and tails are, and learning all about the transitions into and out of hearts.

I've been doing this 2 years now, and I'm still way down on the learning side of the curve.
But one nice thing about not knowing too much is that I'm not set in my ways yet, neither.

Thanks to all for this lively discussion, seriously, these things keep giving me new ways to look at the hobby, and new ideas to explore.

[rad14701]

steelmb, I understand you have a bug up your ass about your practices being called slather-assed because you don't think anyone should be making cuts but that's where you are doing a disservice to novices in topic after topic, or so it seems... If you like the swill you make without proper cuts that's fine... But stop it already with the pouting incessantly about how you've been wronged and how we should all stop trying to promote better protocols...

Do you really think those of us who try to help new members make proper cuts in an effort to render clean spirits haven't done one run and done with limited cuts...??? Really...??? Do you think we haven't set at least part of our low wines aside for drinking...??? And don't you think we can tell the difference between low wines and clean blended spirits...??? Your carrying on in the manner you have is growing old... The long and short of it is that regardless of what you and your friends think about what you share doesn't negate the concept of striving to do better...

If you are 100% sure that your methods are best then perhaps we should just shut this site down and let folks fend for themselves because, according to your comments, we've just been wasting our time here for all these years...

This topic is in Novice Distillers, not in some Oldtimer Shortcuts topic...

[shadylane]

... The resulting nasty taste will induce your gag reflex and make people think "moonshine". ...

That is a matter of opinion. I single distill with a pot still, put the foreshots in the windshield washer of my car, collect down to 15%, mix it all together and put it through my wine aerator when bottling and am good to go. It is around 50% abv and tastes good immediately but sometimes does improve slightly after sitting a couple months. I suppose my palette may not be as discerning as others here but I, my girlfriend and other friends enjoy it this way so have no intentions of changing my procedure. Before letting many of the vocal ones here convince you that their way is the only way, go ahead and give this a try. If you don't like the result you can always throw it back in the still and do a spirit run and you have lost nothing. I use good ingredients with a good recipe that in my opinion produces a fine product on a single run with no cuts. Be your own judge.

I disagree.
By the time most tails are down to 15% there's fusel oil floating on top.
Also on a single run the total ABV would be closer to 40 or 45%
And will take years in the keg to be drinkable
Edited: I meant a single uncut run

[thecroweater]

If it's sugar...it should be something like vodka or white rum (it is white rum),

This statement is misleading and 100% wrong. Rum is made from molasses and any rum type libation is always from some sort of sap. It is what is not sugar that makes this drink rum, sugar is the common factor in all spirits, without some form of sugar you don't get alcohol end of story. This is not the first time I've seen this krud peddlered to newbies and is not the first time I've called BS on it.

[HDNB]

i have made some truly, magnificently bad likker.

so what's this magic no-cut recipe already?



MCH, i was a little disappointed this didn't rhyme, so i had a whack at fixing it...

I haven't been at this long enough to have any Firm Beliefs but I will toss in my "opinion".

Run it as you like. Cut it as you will.
It's your hooch, you get to choose.
if you choose poorly, it may make you ill.

I've done lots of one-and-dones with rum, cherries, Froot Loops, and maple.
I've done lots of whiskeys, run once and also triple distilled all with full flavor.
The all grain recipes are truly a staple,
Something we all would very much savour.

I've done close hearts cuts and also kept everything but fores.
I doubt that I'll be convinced that there is one right way to do it.
I've had to throw it all out and that made me sore!
Perhaps i'll learn cuts without having to spit.

My advice, Hanson, is to do many runs.
If you do it right, you'll have many, much funs!

[Hanson423]

I watched the Popcorn Sutton documentary and he didn't run it twice... At least it didn't show it. I'll just have to try it both ways when I get up and running.

[still_stirrin]

...I, my girlfriend and other friends enjoy it this way so...go ahead and give this a try....Be your own judge.

+1.

Who can complain about free liquor regardless of the bowel reprocussions or ensuing headaches? Free is FREE, right? Pass me the "bottle of buzz", I'll worry about "tomorrow" another day.