A few questions to guide me on cuts

[stringman]

Hi all

Back again after storing up my stripped wash to do a spirit run intending vodka then Odins gin
I have a little Chinese 15l pot still.
The first spirit run I have just completed was with 7.5L of 30% low wines.

I have researched this forum and looked at others and theer is a huge amount of info.
But....

....Most of it is based on 25L of 40% low wines

So my first question is there a method in adjusting the calculations to fit my set up?

something divide the quantities by about a 3rd (7.5l instead of 25L) and then divide alcohol levels by 3/4 (30% instead of 40%)

You see what have done on my 1st run is this:

throw away the 1st 150ml (too much)
Saved into 24 jars each holding about 130-150ml

I read on another site that for a 25l 40% wash the fore shots are about 750ml- yes I know that you have to do it by taste and smell but this is a rough guide to prepare me for that.

So if I use my bodge calculation that would be 750/3 =250 /.75 = 190ml so 2 jars
Now after only 2 hours and having a sniff I can already smell that 1 and 2 smell different from 3 and 4 has virtually no smell at all.
So on to the hearts- being conservative I am thinking of jars 4 (75%) through to 20 (45%) or maybe 21 (40%) so I reckon that is about 2.1L
Does this sound about correct?

So onto the blending

I will leave them a day or so to air. I understand that you need to dilute tiny samples to 40% and taste and smell.
But as my jars contain only a small amount could I not dilute each cut in its entirety to 40% and then taste. then when it comes to blending I just simply mix the pre diluted cuts?
would this work?

Thanks in advance

[cuginosgrizzo]

I will leave them a day or so to air. I understand that you need to dilute tiny samples to 40% and taste and smell.
But as my jars contain only a small amount could I not dilute each cut in its entirety to 40% and then taste. then when it comes to blending I just simply mix the pre diluted cuts?
would this work?

since you are making vodka and keeping it white, yes it would work. It wouldn't work for any brown spirit because you wanna age it at a higher proof.

As for your request for numbers, sorry but I think nobody could really help you. Cuts and the amount of heads/tails depend largely on the wash, what it is made of, the yeast used, the way if was fermented (temperature and other variable conditions), and of course personal preferences. So no way to tell you what to expect. You get what you get.

[still_stirrin]

I have a little Chinese 15l pot still. The first spirit run I have just completed was with 7.5L of 30% low wines...is there a method in adjusting the calculations to fit my set up?

The "potential" alcohol is: 7.5L x 30%ABV = 2.25L at (a theorectical) 100%ABV. But you won't collect it at 100%ABV from a potstill, more likely at an average of 60%ABV. So, you could "theoretically" expect: 2.25L / 60%ABV = 3.75L of product at the 60%ABV average.

But unfortunately you won't "get it all" and some of the collected spirit will be discarded (foreshots, heads, and tails). So you won't actually have 3.75L in your "keeper" jar...more likely just 1/2 of that...1.9L, or so.

...Saved into 24 jars each holding about 130-150ml...

That's approx. 3.3L +/-. Close to the "theoretical" values posted above.

...being conservative I am thinking of jars 4 (75%) through to 20 (45%) or maybe 21 (40%) so I reckon that is about 2.1L. Does this sound about correct?

Again, refer to the calculations above...

...So onto the blending...as my jars contain only a small amount, could I (not) dilute each cut in its entirety to 40% and then taste? Then, when it comes to blending I just simply mix the pre-diluted cuts? Would this work?

Sure you can do this. Since your target is a "neutral" for making Odin's EZ gin (which calls for 43%ABV neutral for the maceration), why not temper each sample to 43%ABV first?

Now, keep in mind, that you will be diluting the late heads and early hearts more this way, resulting in more of them carrying into your neutral. Likewise, you'll be diluting the early tails less this way, also resulting in carrying more of them into your neutral. So, doing a "blend" like this will "average" the jars more and carry in more of the flavors that would ideally be excluded from a gin base. But, you CAN do it.

I hope my answers help you understand 1st) the calculations and 2nd) the process of making cuts a little better...if you can understand what I wrote (without generating 10x more questions).
ss

[stringman]

Sorry but I don't know how to do the fancy colour boxes so please bear with me!! In order to make it clear I shall use caps but I'm not shouting (I'm just looking)

I have a little Chinese 15l pot still. The first spirit run I have just completed was with 7.5L of 30% low wines...is there a method in adjusting the calculations to fit my set up?

The "potential" alcohol is: 7.5L x 30%ABV = 2.25L at (a theorectical) 100%ABV. But you won't collect it at 100%ABV from a potstill, more likely at an average of 60%ABV. So, you could "theoretically" expect: 2.25L / 60%ABV = 3.75L of product at the 60%ABV average.

SO I GET THE 2.25L BY DIVIDING 7.5l BY 30% BUT BECUASE ITS ONLY GOING TO GIVE AVERAGE 60%ABV I FIND 60% OF 2.25L AND ADD IT (BECUASE THERE IS NOW AN ADDITIONAL 40% WATER?)

But unfortunately you won't "get it all" and some of the collected spirit will be discarded (foreshots, heads, and tails). So you won't actually have 3.75L in your "keeper" jar...more likely just 1/2 of that...1.9L, or so.
wELL THATS THE SORT OF THING I WANT TO KNOW - A ROUGH GUIDE OF WHERE I SHOULD BE COLLECTING BEFORE I TRY THE "TECHNICAL"STUFF

...Saved into 24 jars each holding about 130-150ml...

That's approx. 3.3L +/-. Close to the "theoretical" values posted above.

iNDEED

...being conservative I am thinking of jars 4 (75%) through to 20 (45%) or maybe 21 (40%) so I reckon that is about 2.1L. Does this sound about correct?

Again, refer to the calculations above...

I TRIED THE ULTIMATE TEST. I GOT @SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED TO SNIFF CERTAIN JARS (NOT KNOWING WHAT SHE WAS SMELLING FOR)
SHE DISCERNED A SLIGHT DIFFERNCE BETWEEN 2 AND 3. 4 HAD NO SMELL. 19 HAD A VERY SLIGHT SMELL, 20 A BIT MORE AND 21 " I DONT LIKE" WHEN PROMPTED SHE DISCERNED A WET SMELL FROM 20 ONWARDS

...So onto the blending...as my jars contain only a small amount, could I (not) dilute each cut in its entirety to 40% and then taste? Then, when it comes to blending I just simply mix the pre-diluted cuts? Would this work?

Sure you can do this. Since your target is a "neutral" for making Odin's EZ gin (which calls for 43%ABV neutral for the maceration), why not temper each sample to 43%ABV first?
THANK GOD FOR THAT I WOULD HAVE GONE FOR 40% HAD I NOT READ YOUR MESSAGE!!!!

tHAT SOUNDS LKE A GOOD IDEA. I MIGHT GO FOR A DILUTE TO 43% ON JARS 2-5 AND TASTEAND THEN JARS 15-21 AS THAT IS MORE MANEAGEABLE. IT SEMS TO ME, THAT FOR A NEUTRAL THE MIDDLE OF THE HEARTS IS A SAFE BET TO BLEND. (BAEARING IN MIND I AM MAKING GIN WITH THIS BATCH) AND I CAN TAKE SMALL STEPS WITH THIS BATCH

Now, keep in mind, that you will be diluting the late heads and early hearts more this way, resulting in more of them carrying into your neutral. Likewise, you'll be diluting the early tails less this way, also resulting in carrying more of them into your neutral. So, doing a "blend" like this will "average" the jars more and carry in more of the flavors that would ideally be excluded from a gin base. But, you CAN do it.

THANKS FOR THAT A GREAT EXPLAINATION ON HOW IT IS POSSIBLE BUT NOT ADVISABLE.
LEARN THE HARD WAY, GAIN THE EXPERIENCE AND THEN (WHEN SKILLED) TAKE SHORT CUTS

I hope my answers help you understand 1st) the calculations and 2nd) the process of making cuts a little better...if you can understand what I wrote (without generating 10x more questions).
ss

I COULD NOT HAVE HOPED FOR MORE SIR!!!

WE ARE GETTING MARRIED NEXT YEAR SO THIS FIRST BATCH OF GIN AND VODKA WILL BE RESERVED FOR THE WEDDING (ITS A SMALL GATHERING)
THERE WILL BE STRAIGHT G&t AND V&T ALONG WITH THE BLUSHING BRIDE (RASBERRY INFUSED VODKA, ELDEFLOWER CORDIAL AND LEMONADE) AND THE FLUSHED GROOM (RHUBARB GIN, ELDERFLOWER CORDIAL AND GINGER ALE)

[still_stirrin]

What....no "panty dropper"...at a wedding reception....???

[stringman]

WTF

tell me more

[still_stirrin]

...7.5L x 30%ABV = 2.25L at (a theorectical) 100%ABV.

SO I GET THE 2.25L BY DIVIDING 7.5l BY 30%...

NO....you MULTIPLY the wash volume by the %ABV of the collection...as i SHOWED you already!

...But you won't collect it at 100%ABV from a potstill, more likely at an average of 60%ABV. So, you could "theoretically" expect: 2.25L / 60%ABV = 3.75L of product at the 60%ABV average.

BUT BECUASE ITS ONLY GOING TO GIVE AVERAGE 60%ABV I FIND 60% OF 2.25L AND ADD IT (BECUASE THERE IS NOW AN ADDITIONAL 40% WATER?)

NO...you take the ratio of theoretical to actual (100% / 60%) and multiply it by the theoretical volume (2.25L)...just like I SHOWED you already! You don't "add" it to the theoretical volume...simply ratio it up as shown.

Or, shown another way: collected volume x collected %ABV = theoretical volume x 100%ABV, --> actual volume = 2.25L x 100%ABV / 60%ABV

...But unfortunately you won't "get it all" (you'll leave some behind in the boiler as "backset") and some of the collected spirit will be discarded (foreshots, heads, and tails). So you won't actually have 3.75L in your "keeper" jar...more likely just 1/2 of that...1.9L, or so.

wELL THATS THE SORT OF THING I WANT TO KNOW - A ROUGH GUIDE OF WHERE I SHOULD BE COLLECTING BEFORE I TRY THE "TECHNICAL"STUFF

This takes experience...to know your tools and your processes. What I've quoted is simply an "average" of many...not your calculation basis. It's, at best, an "approximation". I guesstimate that your "keep" volume won't be greater than 50% of the "potential alcohol" volume after cuts.

[Klein]

WTF

tell me more

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =14&t=2199

[OtisT]

Hi stringman. You should check out the calculators available on the parent site. Go to parent site and choose Calcs from the top menu. Then look at the list on the left of your screen for the various calculator pages. Open them all to find the useful ones. They are not organized well.

There are some useful tools there that will help you calculate estimated yield and more on your own, w/o needing to know the math. . Good Luck.

[stringman]

...7.5L x 30%ABV = 2.25L at (a theorectical) 100%ABV.

SO I GET THE 2.25L BY DIVIDING 7.5l BY 30%...

NO....you MULTIPLY the wash volume by the %ABV of the collection...as i SHOWED you already!

Sorry I didn't explain myself well I was just trying to sort it in my head

...But you won't collect it at 100%ABV from a potstill, more likely at an average of 60%ABV. So, you could "theoretically" expect: 2.25L / 60%ABV = 3.75L of product at the 60%ABV average.

BUT BECUASE ITS ONLY GOING TO GIVE AVERAGE 60%ABV I FIND 60% OF 2.25L AND ADD IT (BECUASE THERE IS NOW AN ADDITIONAL 40% WATER?)

NO...you take the ratio of theoretical to actual (100% / 60%) and multiply it by the theoretical volume (2.25L)...just like I SHOWED you already! You don't "add" it to the theoretical volume...simply ratio it up as shown.
Again as above lol

Or, shown another way: collected volume x collected %ABV = theoretical volume x 100%ABV, --> actual volume = 2.25L x 100%ABV / 60%ABV

...But unfortunately you won't "get it all" (you'll leave some behind in the boiler as "backset") and some of the collected spirit will be discarded (foreshots, heads, and tails). So you won't actually have 3.75L in your "keeper" jar...more likely just 1/2 of that...1.9L, or so.

wELL THATS THE SORT OF THING I WANT TO KNOW - A ROUGH GUIDE OF WHERE I SHOULD BE COLLECTING BEFORE I TRY THE "TECHNICAL"STUFF

This takes experience...to know your tools and your processes. What I've quoted is simply an "average" of many...not your calculation basis. It's, at best, an "approximation". I guesstimate that your "keep" volume won't be greater than 50% of the "potential alcohol" volume after cuts.

[NZChris]

No matter how you go about selecting a cut, you should make up a representative sample of your prospective blend for a taste test before you commit your choice to the blending jug. I use a small dipper for making up my samples.

Also, you don't have to make only one cut from a spirit run. You mention Odin's Easy gin. For that, I often use a cut taken after the first hint of cardboard in a Birdwatcher's run for reasons I've explained on his thread. If you are running a wash suitable for vodka, I'm sure you could get a nice vodka cut from the early run and a good enough base spirit for Odin's Easy Gin from the latter half.

[skow69]

Saved into 24 jars each holding about 130-150ml

So on to the hearts- being conservative I am thinking of jars 4 (75%) through to 20 (45%) or maybe 21 (40%) so I reckon that is about 2.1L
Does this sound about correct?

So onto the blending

For me, that would be a pretty wide hearts cut. What would you take if you weren't being conservative?

So that would give you:
heads ---- 13%
hearts --- 71% - 75%
tails ----- 13% - 17%.
Of course numbers should never overrule taste and smell for making cuts, but, just statistically speaking, that is a pretty damn clean run.

As for blending, If you are trying to make a clean neutral spirit, why would you want to blend in heads and tails flavors.

I think there are two ways to look at producing a neutral base spirit for making gin, absinthe, kahlua, or other infusions and macerations. Some people aren't bothered by the quality of the base because they feel like whatever flavors come with it will be sufficiently masked by the juniper, wormwood, coffee, or what have you. The other school doesn't want the base to contribute anything that could compete with the flavor profile they are trying to create. Personally, when I make gin I want to start with a neutral that is so clean it's invisible, with no detectable characteristics at all save ethanol. It just pisses me off to buy a bottle of gin and get a whif of heads when I open it. (Fortunately, I haven't been forced to drink store bought gin for some time now.)

Anyway, probably the best thing you can do at this point is to thoughtfully sample every jar. Do them in order or start from the center and work down, then back to the center and work up. Just don't jump around. Spit, don't swallow, and rinse with clear water from time to time. Try to be sensitive to the progression of flavors from one end to the other. You may not be able to tell the difference between jar #5 and #19 now, but there is a difference, and a year from now it will totally obvious. Like anything else, it just takes a little study and a lot of practice.

[stringman]

Skow

I get what you are saying about the numbers. But as I am going for a neutral the moment I got a smell of cardboard I did another 100ml just get the conformation then I stopped the run, so in theory I could have got a ot more tails.

I definitely see no point in the tails going in - bad flavor low % . the heads are tempting as they have have high %

its all a learning curve!

Well its a learning curve and a half!!!

So I watered my sample of jar 1 to 43% and then tried it- yuck , very strong, quite sickly sweet
Jar 2 less sweet, more hot and peppery

Now by smell alone I would have said jar 4 would be ok to put in. But by taste I actually decided to start on jar 7 for my blend
I still haven't 100% decided on 5 and 6 yet

All the cuts tasted quite hot and peppery but I am hoping that's because I don't usually drink spirits neat and it was to 43%.

when I got to jar 18 I could start to taste some cardboard so at the moment I have blended 11 jars.
when diluted this brings out about 2.2l.

So question time. is it always best to dilute to 40% to taste or could I go down to 30%?
There is no point in using the tails in my next spirit run, but is there any benefit on adding the heads ?

Thanks all

[still_stirrin]

...is it always best to dilute to 40% to taste or could I go down to 30%?

At 40%ABV you should be able to taste the spirit without much fear of tissue damage. Higher proof tasting will numb the taste buds and can cause tissue damage. So, since it is "safe" to drink at bottle strength, then you will get a good perception of the flavors stored in the bottle.

You CAN dilute farther if you like, but it will make the sample taste different than your bottle and as such, give you a misguided perception (of what you plan to keep). I like to sample close to bottle strength to make the cuts. But I don't dilute the collection until I'm ready to fill the cask or long term storage. Neutrals I tend to store at 180-190 proof until I use them for further processing such as macerations.

There is no point in using the tails in my next spirit run, but is there any benefit on adding the heads?

You could try to pull some flavors from the heads by stirring in a little sodium carbonate. That will convert some of the acetates in the heads to ethyl alcohol and esters. I suggest searching for and reading some of the threads discussing this process.

Otherwise, adding heads back to a subsequent run may help to compress them if you use a reflux still. If you only use a potstill I wouldn't bother putting them into a wash. Collect the heads (and tails) in a feints jar until you have enough for an all-feints run. You'll recover a little good ethanol out that run.
ss

[emptyglass]

Everyone does things a bit different, we all find what works for us individually.

For me, I wouldnt waste time blending in anything from heads and tails that are not pleasing for a neutral, just save em up for a feints run. Dont waste anything, it can all be used somehow at a later date.

Keep your cuts narrow at this stage and make something you enjoy. Dont get bogged down in the science of it all, just have faith that you wont need to toss any of your hard work. Just keep what you like and save the rest.

Dont over complicate it, its not all that hard.

[stringman]

So I have just completed the second spirit run

Using the help I have received here I worked out that from my 10L 32% low wines I should get around 5.2L
Using a rough calculation of 25% heads, 50% hearts, 25% tails
I collected 1L in a jug and put it in the feints pot.
the rest rent into the same jars.

I collected 30 jars worth - the last jar I measured at 35% (it was warm as well) so stopped then.
I seem to have about 5L worth and I suspect that I will have about 2.3L of hearts.
Which when diluted should give me a nice little supply.
I am thinking of saving 3 bottles for the wedding (1 will be infused for the cocktail) the rest we will age until the future Mrs T needs a drink.

I have so far to go but feel I at least have a map now

Many thanks