Better Cuts with better Dilution

Other discussions for folks new to the wonderful craft of home distilling.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Yummyrum » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:17 am

Kiwistillers Novice guide to Cuts is Mandatory reading

Beginners often comment that when doing cuts they find it hard to distinguish the various parts and too often it is found that they are simply sampling straight out of the jars .
Samples should always be dilluted down before sampling and the ideal ABV is around 35% .
Diluting a sample really opens up the flavours........the good and the bad ....exactly what you need to be able to taste to make the best cuts you can .

Diluting Too much will often give a sense of a weak flavoured spirit making it hard to judge its charactor. After taking a weak sample , the tendancy is to take another .....but often it ends up too high in ABV ......Bammm...taste buds fried . :thumbdown:
Once you have had samples at too higher ABV then you might as well pack it in for the night as you can no longer make an informed descision . Things like tails just can't be detected and iffn you do go ahead and maker your cuts , you usually regret it .

I used to do cuts with my old dipp'n spoon
Dip it in the jar , splash in some water and have a taste ....it kinda worked . I still use this method for on the fly testing . Dip the spoon in some water , hold it under the spout for a few splashes and have a taste .



But its pretty hit and miss and the ABV can be all over the place .

My old mate.jpg


Recently , I come up with a much improved method which makes repeatability of samples during cuts much better and it also eliminates another major issue encountered when making cuts ....Getting Maggoted :oops:

And while a few teaspoons seems good at the time , 10mls becomes 50mls becomes 200mls

This new method means only about 1ml - 2mls per sip ...enough to make a reasonable decision but not so much as to impair decision making when many samples up / down through the jars needs to be made.

So here it is ....my glass tube
Coloured water added for clarity
My new Buddy.jpg


Well big woop you say :wave: ....maybe ...but it works :thumbup: ...and its quick as to use .
Its just a piece of glass tube about 4mm in diameter with about a 2mm hole up its clacka .
Sure , you can use glass syringes and pipettes and the like but they are sooooooooo fiddly and time consuming to use ...this dead easy . :D

This is what I do

1) Dip it into the sample up to the mark ....( STICK YOUR THUMB OVER THE END ........so it stays in there)
2)Let it go into a teaspoon
3)Dip it into some water up to another mark which is the ABV of the sample ( STICK YOUR THUMB OVER THE END )
4)Let it mix into the sample in the spoon ( a quick stir won't hurt )

5)Taste it :relaxed:

I got out the calculator :eugeek:
Here are the magic marks ......it just so happened to be a nice linear scale .....Yes you can choose any spacing you like , mm , 1/8" of an inch ...doesn't matter so long as you can dip it far enough into you jar . ...Just scale it .

scaling your tube.jpg


Now I don't like Maker pen in my drink so I scored the marks I care about with a file and wiped off the Marker pen .

I have made a few ...one for when I do neutrals in the VM that are always around 95% , one for the Pot still which is around 60-80% and one for the Flute which is around 85-95%
( Just be careful not to score the tube too much as this is the exact technique used to "snap" the stuff to size.) :evil:
In-fact you don't need to score it at all if your Eye-O-Meter is good enough at repeated " rough enough is good enough Measurements " :thumbup:
mark the tube.jpg



So here's my spirit Run
I'm collecting in 500ml jars .....Thank goodness we buy a lot of Pasta sauce

Collecting in Jars.jpg


I have left them covered overnight to air and have them all lined up on the table .
To make decent cuts you need at least 20-30 jars .

If you only have 7 full jars ...it just ain't gonna work so well .......next time only a third fill those jars ...you gotta have choices :thumbup:

Jars laid out.jpg


So Let The Fun Begin

Take a sample from about the the middle jar .....Remember , dip the Glass tube up to the "Sample " position ......it is the same every sample ( only the water level varys) .....(and you don't have to be ubba anal ) .....close enough is better than a random splash in a spoon .

Dip the tube in to the sample.jpg


Release the sample into you spoon

Release sample.jpg


Dip the tube into the water up to the ABV % mark that approximates the strength of the sample .

Taking some water.jpg


Add the water to the sample in the spoon ....stir if you please .

Add water to sample.jpg


TASTE IT

Now repeat up and down the jars

Initial  Cuts.jpg


You will find a Bland tight Hearts Cut in the middle that is ...welll...boring but safe
You will find the decidedly heads section that is a definite nogo .......like wise there will be a tails section that is only fit for feints .

Then there will be a group eitherside of the tight hearts cut that you can't quite decide on and likewise a section of tailsy jars that are questionable .
When making flavoured spirits these are the tricky jars that will either enhance or worsen the final spirit .
User avatar
Yummyrum
Site Mod
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Mid North Coast Aussie

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Yummyrum » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:56 am

So now we enter the next phase

Setting up some blends
We need to see what the tight cut tastes like :eh:

We take a sample from all the jars in the tight hearts cut and add them to a shot glass . Then for every sample we took we add a measure of water .
8 jars , 8 hits of water . This is our reference shotty

So now we Make up a few blends ....perhaps a bit of late heads

A bit of heads.jpg


A bit of early tails .

A bit of tails.jpg


Perhaps you may find one jar is just wrong .......that happens .

Nasty jar.jpg


Either way , you should end up with several blends .

Making blends in shottys.jpg


Taste them , walk away and come back ....taste them again .....you will know which shotty tastes good ......because your taste buds are still working and you're not off your dial :thumbup:

Oh and this was my final cut .....its what I liked when I tasted it ...My choice not yours :thumbup:

Final cut.jpg


So that will give you a tasty WhiteDog ...now all you have to do is stick some on Oak for a while , and see what happens ....this is where a bit of prediction will come in next time :esurprised:
User avatar
Yummyrum
Site Mod
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Mid North Coast Aussie

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Johnny6 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:20 am

This is an excellent write up! I'm heading out to get a glass tube. I've had a lot of trouble getting a consistent ABV for sampling using just spoons and water. I'll give this a try.

Thanks for posting this.
User avatar
Johnny6
Bootlegger
 
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Midwest

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Yummyrum » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:26 am

No worries Johnny6 ...pleased it might be of some help
User avatar
Yummyrum
Site Mod
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Mid North Coast Aussie

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Bushman » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:40 am

Yummy this deserves to be a sticky. Zymurgy bob does something similar but you have taken it to a new level.
User avatar
Bushman
Global moderator
 
Posts: 12963
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:29 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby still_stirrin » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:48 am

Great job Yummyrum.

The only comment I would add is...make notes when you sample. When doing cuts, you’ll taste a lot of samples. Get a pencil and paper and write down your perceptions as you go. And be as descriptive as you can when discerning the aroma and taste perceptions. Even though they’ll be close to each other, if you really try to describe your senses, you’ll begin to note subtle differences.

Also, describe your perception in terms of known paradigms: sweet (corn, sugar, molly, etc.), spicy (pepper, cinnamon, etc.), fruity (grape, apple, orange, lemon, pear, etc.), solvent (paint thinner, fingernail polish, acetone, etc.), grains (barley, bread, wheat, oats, corn, etc.) and any other perceptions you can dig out of the samples.

As you do this, you’ll get more intimate with your senses. Take your time. The benefit to the rigorous process is training. You’ll train your smelling and tasting senses to be more sensitive. And the documentation of your notes will give you a feedback loop of your progress. You’ll be able to “see” (read) the gradients and better determine where to cut and how to blend.

One final suggestion...keep a glass of (ambient temperature) water handy so you can clean your palette between samples. No doubt tasting a bunch of teaspoons (I use a shot glass) of liquor can muddy your senses. Drinking water as you do will help keep you alert by letting you pass/piss some of the toxins out.

Great “desktop manual” Yummy. Thanks for the contribution.
ss
Attention new distillers: Cranky's spoon feed info
What is a Proof & Traille hydrometer: Alcohol-meter
Enzyme info: SebStar
HD Google search info: HD Google-how to
All about mashing grains: Braukaiser
User avatar
still_stirrin
Master Distiller
 
Posts: 6034
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby thecroweater » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:09 am

Nice one yummy pretty similar to what I do except for the glass tube and that's only because I don't own one. I will go along with spoons being somewhat inconsistent.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
thecroweater
Site Mod
 
Posts: 5212
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:04 am
Location: Central Highlands Vic. Australia

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Fraser » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:20 am

Very good write up here. Very professional. I also vote to put this as a sticky post. This will be very helpful to people puzzling over how to organize their cuts and I couldn't think of a better way to explain it than this.

That's a great idea to use a glass straw to take samples. Once you get your cuts down and repeat the same recipe several times, it's easy to know where to look to find your margins on your cuts.
Sator Square Distillery
DSP-PA-20063
Fraser
Novice
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:29 pm

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby HDNB » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:56 am

Bushman wrote:Yummy this deserves to be a sticky. Zymurgy bob does something similar but you have taken it to a new level.

you have the power!

great contribution yummy. i been meaning to grab a wine thief or a pipette from somewhere it seems so much more pro than splashing the tongue around in the output stream, looking like a dehydrated hamster. :oops: :oops:
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
User avatar
HDNB
Site Mod
 
Posts: 5673
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:04 am
Location: the f-f-fu frozen north

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby cranky » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:00 am

I agree with the others, this is a very nice detailed writeup and deserves to be a sticky :thumbup:
User avatar
cranky
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 4858
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:18 pm
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Kareltje » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:05 am

Very nice Yummyrum, and smart addition of still_stirring.
I especially like the trick with the glass tube: very simple and always correct!
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
 
Posts: 1645
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby zapata » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:27 am

Nice!
I've tried various forms of spooning and found I sample better out of glass. Taste of metal throws it off for me, even stainless.
When I do it "right" I use a syringe and calculate each dilution by hand. Your custom calibrated pipette certainly makes that easier!
And since Zbob came up, Im a strong fan of his cut party idea. Even if its just 1 other bloke. I have a few rules though, everybody starts sober, nobody drinks more than the aliquots for tasting until we're through the jars, you have to write something for every sip even if just a single word. And I will NOT make the entire blend that night but revisit it, the notes and any sample blends the next day.
zapata
Distiller
 
Posts: 1171
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Odin » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:29 am

Nice thread!

I'd even dilute bits to 17% because then everything comes out of solution. You can smell tails very easy this way. Especially helpful when making whisky and rum, where early tails smearing enhances complexity.

Regards, Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 6247
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby OtisT » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:57 am

Great write up. I use glass Calibrated Eye Droppers for sampling/measuring/diluting to a desired ABV. They are relatively cheep, maybe $7 for half a dozen on Amazon. The 1 ml droppers have marking for 1/10s and make getting a specific ABV quite simple. A few of these and some shot glasses made sampling cut jars much simpler and more consistent for me.
Cranky's spoonfeeding:
viewtopic.php?t=52975
OtisT
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 916
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:59 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby steelmb » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:31 am

Yummyrum wrote:Kiwistillers Novice guide to Cuts is Mandatory reading

Beginners often comment that when doing cuts they find it hard to distinguish the various parts and too often it is found that they are simply sampling straight out of the jars .
Samples should always be dilluted down before sampling and the ideal ABV is around 35% .
Diluting a sample really opens up the flavours........the good and the bad ....exactly what you need to be able to taste to make the best cuts you can .

Diluting Too much will often give a sense of a weak flavoured spirit making it hard to judge its charactor. After taking a weak sample , the tendancy is to take another .....but often it ends up too high in ABV ......Bammm...taste buds fried . :thumbdown:
Once you have had samples at too higher ABV then you might as well pack it in for the night as you can no longer make an informed descision . Things like tails just can't be detected and iffn you do go ahead and maker your cuts , you usually regret it .

I used to do cuts with my old dipp'n spoon
Dip it in the jar , splash in some water and have a taste ....it kinda worked . I still use this method for on the fly testing . Dip the spoon in some water , hold it under the spout for a few splashes and have a taste .



But its pretty hit and miss and the ABV can be all over the place .

My old mate.jpg


Recently , I come up with a much improved method which makes repeatability of samples during cuts much better and it also eliminates another major issue encountered when making cuts ....Getting Maggoted :oops:

And while a few teaspoons seems good at the time , 10mls becomes 50mls becomes 200mls

This new method means only about 1ml - 2mls per sip ...enough to make a reasonable decision but not so much as to impair decision making when many samples up / down through the jars needs to be made.

So here it is ....my glass tube
Coloured water added for clarity
My new Buddy.jpg


Well big woop you say :wave: ....maybe ...but it works :thumbup: ...and its quick as to use .
Its just a piece of glass tube about 4mm in diameter with about a 2mm hole up its clacka .
Sure , you can use glass syringes and pipettes and the like but they are sooooooooo fiddly and time consuming to use ...this dead easy . :D

This is what I do

1) Dip it into the sample up to the mark ....( STICK YOUR THUMB OVER THE END ........so it stays in there)
2)Let it go into a teaspoon
3)Dip it into some water up to another mark which is the ABV of the sample ( STICK YOUR THUMB OVER THE END )
4)Let it mix into the sample in the spoon ( a quick stir won't hurt )

5)Taste it :relaxed:

I got out the calculator :eugeek:
Here are the magic marks ......it just so happened to be a nice linear scale .....Yes you can choose any spacing you like , mm , 1/8" of an inch ...doesn't matter so long as you can dip it far enough into you jar . ...Just scale it .

scaling your tube.jpg


Now I don't like Maker pen in my drink so I scored the marks I care about with a file and wiped off the Marker pen .

I have made a few ...one for when I do neutrals in the VM that are always around 95% , one for the Pot still which is around 60-80% and one for the Flute which is around 85-95%
( Just be careful not to score the tube too much as this is the exact technique used to "snap" the stuff to size.) :evil:
In-fact you don't need to score it at all if your Eye-O-Meter is good enough at repeated " rough enough is good enough Measurements " :thumbup:
mark the tube.jpg



So here's my spirit Run
I'm collecting in 500ml jars .....Thank goodness we buy a lot of Pasta sauce

Collecting in Jars.jpg


I have left them covered overnight to air and have them all lined up on the table .
To make decent cuts you need at least 20-30 jars .

If you only have 7 full jars ...it just ain't gonna work so well .......next time only a third fill those jars ...you gotta have choices :thumbup:

Jars laid out.jpg


So Let The Fun Begin

Take a sample from about the the middle jar .....Remember , dip the Glass tube up to the "Sample " position ......it is the same every sample ( only the water level varys) .....(and you don't have to be ubba anal ) .....close enough is better than a random splash in a spoon .

Dip the tube in to the sample.jpg


Release the sample into you spoon

Release sample.jpg


Dip the tube into the water up to the ABV % mark that approximates the strength of the sample .

Taking some water.jpg


Add the water to the sample in the spoon ....stir if you please .

Add water to sample.jpg


TASTE IT

Now repeat up and down the jars

Initial Cuts.jpg


You will find a Bland tight Hearts Cut in the middle that is ...welll...boring but safe
You will find the decidedly heads section that is a definite nogo .......like wise there will be a tails section that is only fit for feints .

Then there will be a group eitherside of the tight hearts cut that you can't quite decide on and likewise a section of tailsy jars that are questionable .
When making flavoured spirits these are the tricky jars that will either enhance or worsen the final spirit .


Or you can just do a single run, make a reasonable fores cut (3mls per liter of wash), collect into a single container until the distillate is down to 50% ABV, drink and enjoy. No fuss, no muss. You can continue to collect past this point separately and add back to the next wash just before distillation if so desired.

Just sayin.

P.S. Donned my flame suit before submitting.
I believe MCH may have said it best. "It's your hooch, you get to choose."
Ding Dong
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=66849
User avatar
steelmb
Bootlegger
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:04 am

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Twisted Brick » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:42 pm

zapata wrote: And I will NOT make the entire blend that night but revisit it, the notes and any sample blends the next day.


I wondered about doing this, but found it much easier to assess tails than heads, so kept going. Think I'm gonna try it next cut session, just because.

Also, after airing for 2 days under coffee filters, I remeasured the ABV of about 75% of 26 jars. I was expecting the ABV to be lower due to the possible evaporation of some of the lighter volatiles, but curiously, every reading was above the adjusted temp, until I got 8 jars into tails.

Is this normal? Or maybe my P&T hydrometer?

Thanks for the tips. Gonna come in handy.

TB
“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”

- W.C. Fields
User avatar
Twisted Brick
Swill Maker
 
Posts: 429
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Craigh Na Dun

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Saltbush Bill » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:34 pm

@ Yummy :thumbup:
User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Distiller
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Kareltje » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:15 pm

steelmb wrote:Or you can just do a single run, make a reasonable fores cut (3mls per liter of wash), collect into a single container until the distillate is down to 50% ABV, drink and enjoy. No fuss, no muss. You can continue to collect past this point separately and add back to the next wash just before distillation if so desired.

Just sayin.

P.S. Donned my flame suit before submitting.

Why?
To each his own.
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
 
Posts: 1645
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Kareltje » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:19 pm

Twisted Brick wrote:
zapata wrote: And I will NOT make the entire blend that night but revisit it, the notes and any sample blends the next day.


I wondered about doing this, but found it much easier to assess tails than heads, so kept going. Think I'm gonna try it next cut session, just because.

Also, after airing for 2 days under coffee filters, I remeasured the ABV of about 75% of 26 jars. I was expecting the ABV to be lower due to the possible evaporation of some of the lighter volatiles, but curiously, every reading was above the adjusted temp, until I got 8 jars into tails.

Is this normal? Or maybe my P&T hydrometer?

Thanks for the tips. Gonna come in handy.

TB
I suppose you use the same hydrometer before an after airing, so it can not be its fault.
I calculated a collection of samples at 83,7 % ABV, but it was 82,5 % when measured. Temperature? Misreadings?
This kinds of measurements are so often off the expected values, that I do not much care anymore.
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
 
Posts: 1645
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Twisted Brick » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:12 pm

Kareltje wrote:This kinds of measurements are so often off the expected values, that I do not much care anymore.


I figured as much. Tracking all the temps, volumes and rates is all rather new and exciting to me, as much to understand the performance of the still as much as the process. I fully expect one day to move on past collecting all the stats, and hopefully return to them one day to deftly make my cuts with only 3 jars.
“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”

- W.C. Fields
User avatar
Twisted Brick
Swill Maker
 
Posts: 429
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Craigh Na Dun

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby thecroweater » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:39 pm

Kareltje wrote:
steelmb wrote:P.S. Donned my flame suit before submitting.

Why?
To each his own.

Why? because he thought by posting a method contradicting good advise that he knew would make a sub par product he might get a rise. Sadly no one cares if he wants to smear his low wines to all hell and drink it, as ya stated each to their own, and the faulty information is obvious enough not to mislead anyone.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
thecroweater
Site Mod
 
Posts: 5212
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:04 am
Location: Central Highlands Vic. Australia

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby jon1163 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:54 pm

Great post. Replied to tag thread.
User avatar
jon1163
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Yummyrum » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:23 pm

Bushman wrote:Yummy this deserves to be a sticky. Zymurgy bob does something similar but you have taken it to a new level.

Fraser wrote: I also vote to put this as a sticky post.
cranky wrote:I agree with the others, this is a very nice detailed writeup and deserves to be a sticky :thumbup:
.


Whoo thanks fellas , Thats an honour to be clipped on the distillers wall of fame . :thumbup:

I'm a visual type of guy and I hope that it can help others out there . I won't say its the only way and always welcome advise from members that have things to add .

still_stirrin wrote:The only comment I would add is...make notes when you sample. When doing cuts, you’ll taste a lot of samples. Get a pencil and paper and write down your perceptions as you go. And be as descriptive as you can when discerning the aroma and taste perceptions. Even though they’ll be close to each other, if you really try to describe your senses, you’ll begin to note subtle differences.
ss

Thanks still_stirrin ....this is something I need to start doing as I cetainly can't remember like I used to ....and as you say it helps with defining in your head what it is you are tasting /smelling . I really suck at it and do need to practice this a lot more .

Odin wrote:I'd even dilute bits to 17% because then everything comes out of solution. You can smell tails very easy this way. Especially helpful when making whisky and rum, where early tails smearing enhances complexity.


Thanks Odin . This is something I need to explore too . I guess this is perhaps more relavant to making a nutral than a Pot stilled drink .....not sure
.
zapata wrote:And I will NOT make the entire blend that night but revisit it, the notes and any sample blends the next day.

Good advice zapata . extra airing time can also help as well as just taking a second chance

.
OtisT wrote: I use glass Calibrated Eye Droppers for sampling/measuring/diluting to a desired ABV. They are relatively cheep, maybe $7 for half a dozen on Amazon. The 1 ml droppers have marking for 1/10s and make getting a specific ABV quite simple.

Cool OtisT :thumbup: .....sounds like a great idea . I find the glass tube is quicker than a dropper or pipette but I would have prefed a commercially marked glass as I am always nervous I'll crack mine on the score mark lines ...having said that so far I haven't ( touch wood ) If time is not an issue for you then I agree you droppers would be the go

Thanks all for reading ...hope this topic helps .
User avatar
Yummyrum
Site Mod
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Mid North Coast Aussie

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Jimy Dee » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:58 pm

Definitely sticky standard. One of the most informative poss in a long while. Thanks Yummy.
User avatar
Jimy Dee
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:20 pm
Location: The Munster Republic, Ireland

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Kareltje » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:15 pm

Today I thought about a little improvement: make the measuring stick not of glass but of copper or ss. As the level in or out is the same a calibration on the outside is enough. And less likely to break!
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
 
Posts: 1645
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Kareltje » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:50 pm

thecroweater wrote:
Kareltje wrote:
steelmb wrote:P.S. Donned my flame suit before submitting.

Why?
To each his own.

Why? because he thought by posting a method contradicting good advise that he knew would make a sub par product he might get a rise. Sadly no one cares if he wants to smear his low wines to all hell and drink it, as ya stated each to their own, and the faulty information is obvious enough not to mislead anyone.

Maybe. But I know there has been some serious research about single and double distillation of cachaca. For example:

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S01 ... xt&tlng=pt
Alcarde, André R. et al.
Chemical profile of sugarcane spirits produced by double distillation methodologies in rectifying still.
Aspectos da composição química de aguardente de cana-de-açúcar produzida por metodologias de dupla destilação em alambique retificador.
Ciênc. Tecnol. Aliment. 31 (2), (Campinas) Apr./June 2011
Food Science and Technology (Campinas) 31 (2)

I agree: they prefer double distillation. Especially according to the whisky-method.
On the other hand: as far as I know, moonshining is done in one single run too. And judging by the reports on youtube: a lot of slivovitz-making too.

Even if you think he is performing below possible standards, why should you attack him? Do we not all work according to our own taste and experience?
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
 
Posts: 1645
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby thecroweater » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:37 pm

Attacked no one :? , pointed out the facts as I saw it and what I saw was a fairly lame attempt to discredit good advise in a fairly typical troll method. I don't think sliv is generally made with one pass, wasn't around me. As for shine maybe with a thumper but otherwise not necessarily. These videos you been watching don't start with a voice over " did is how we make da moonshine" by any chance ?
Probably not the best place to learn stuff.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
thecroweater
Site Mod
 
Posts: 5212
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:04 am
Location: Central Highlands Vic. Australia

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Kareltje » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:01 pm

thecroweater wrote:Attacked no one :? , pointed out the facts as I saw it and what I saw was a fairly lame attempt to discredit good advise in a fairly typical troll method. I don't think sliv is generally made with one pass, wasn't around me. As for shine maybe with a thumper but otherwise not necessarily. These videos you been watching don't start with a voice over " did is how we make da moonshine" by any chance ?
Probably not the best place to learn stuff.

No, you did not attack anyone (as far as I know), but he got his flame suit, so he expected flames.
OK, I did not see the troll part or the attempt to discredit a good advice. Might be my bad, just missed it. Would not have payed attention, even. No one payed attention to his description. I did, to his fear.
I sure like Yummyrums post and method and I will surely use it. Was happy to find it.
I saw several youtube films about making slivovitz, but they never mentioned a double distilling. I saw one where a woman made very precise cuts and mixed them very carefully, though. There are clearly several different methods in eastern Europa. The member Palinka talks about double distillation in Hungary.
A thumper is used often in moonshining, as far as I have seen it. Yes, I know the voice over, and still don't know if it says moonshine or moon shine. And I half believe them: I do not think they are scripted, but they are at least severely cut by a director.
I know of distilling some decades ago in the south of the Netherlands, when they made a lot of booze. Never heard of double distilling by these people. But they used columns, for sure.
Some days ago there I saw a documentary about wodka, where one company claimed to distill their wodka 43 times. Unbelievable!

But even if you run only once: Yummyrums method is very useful. Maybe even more!
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
 
Posts: 1645
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Antler24 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:33 pm

steelmb wrote:
Yummyrum wrote:Kiwistillers Novice guide to Cuts is Mandatory reading

Beginners often comment that when doing cuts they find it hard to distinguish the various parts and too often it is found that they are simply sampling straight out of the jars .
Samples should always be dilluted down before sampling and the ideal ABV is around 35% .
Diluting a sample really opens up the flavours........the good and the bad ....exactly what you need to be able to taste to make the best cuts you can .

Diluting Too much will often give a sense of a weak flavoured spirit making it hard to judge its charactor. After taking a weak sample , the tendancy is to take another .....but often it ends up too high in ABV ......Bammm...taste buds fried . :thumbdown:
Once you have had samples at too higher ABV then you might as well pack it in for the night as you can no longer make an informed descision . Things like tails just can't be detected and iffn you do go ahead and maker your cuts , you usually regret it .

I used to do cuts with my old dipp'n spoon
Dip it in the jar , splash in some water and have a taste ....it kinda worked . I still use this method for on the fly testing . Dip the spoon in some water , hold it under the spout for a few splashes and have a taste .



But its pretty hit and miss and the ABV can be all over the place .

My old mate.jpg


Recently , I come up with a much improved method which makes repeatability of samples during cuts much better and it also eliminates another major issue encountered when making cuts ....Getting Maggoted :oops:

And while a few teaspoons seems good at the time , 10mls becomes 50mls becomes 200mls

This new method means only about 1ml - 2mls per sip ...enough to make a reasonable decision but not so much as to impair decision making when many samples up / down through the jars needs to be made.

So here it is ....my glass tube
Coloured water added for clarity
My new Buddy.jpg


Well big woop you say :wave: ....maybe ...but it works :thumbup: ...and its quick as to use .
Its just a piece of glass tube about 4mm in diameter with about a 2mm hole up its clacka .
Sure , you can use glass syringes and pipettes and the like but they are sooooooooo fiddly and time consuming to use ...this dead easy . :D

This is what I do

1) Dip it into the sample up to the mark ....( STICK YOUR THUMB OVER THE END ........so it stays in there)
2)Let it go into a teaspoon
3)Dip it into some water up to another mark which is the ABV of the sample ( STICK YOUR THUMB OVER THE END )
4)Let it mix into the sample in the spoon ( a quick stir won't hurt )

5)Taste it :relaxed:

I got out the calculator :eugeek:
Here are the magic marks ......it just so happened to be a nice linear scale .....Yes you can choose any spacing you like , mm , 1/8" of an inch ...doesn't matter so long as you can dip it far enough into you jar . ...Just scale it .

scaling your tube.jpg


Now I don't like Maker pen in my drink so I scored the marks I care about with a file and wiped off the Marker pen .

I have made a few ...one for when I do neutrals in the VM that are always around 95% , one for the Pot still which is around 60-80% and one for the Flute which is around 85-95%
( Just be careful not to score the tube too much as this is the exact technique used to "snap" the stuff to size.) :evil:
In-fact you don't need to score it at all if your Eye-O-Meter is good enough at repeated " rough enough is good enough Measurements " :thumbup:
mark the tube.jpg



So here's my spirit Run
I'm collecting in 500ml jars .....Thank goodness we buy a lot of Pasta sauce

Collecting in Jars.jpg


I have left them covered overnight to air and have them all lined up on the table .
To make decent cuts you need at least 20-30 jars .

If you only have 7 full jars ...it just ain't gonna work so well .......next time only a third fill those jars ...you gotta have choices :thumbup:

Jars laid out.jpg


So Let The Fun Begin

Take a sample from about the the middle jar .....Remember , dip the Glass tube up to the "Sample " position ......it is the same every sample ( only the water level varys) .....(and you don't have to be ubba anal ) .....close enough is better than a random splash in a spoon .

Dip the tube in to the sample.jpg


Release the sample into you spoon

Release sample.jpg


Dip the tube into the water up to the ABV % mark that approximates the strength of the sample .

Taking some water.jpg


Add the water to the sample in the spoon ....stir if you please .

Add water to sample.jpg


TASTE IT

Now repeat up and down the jars

Initial Cuts.jpg


You will find a Bland tight Hearts Cut in the middle that is ...welll...boring but safe
You will find the decidedly heads section that is a definite nogo .......like wise there will be a tails section that is only fit for feints .

Then there will be a group eitherside of the tight hearts cut that you can't quite decide on and likewise a section of tailsy jars that are questionable .
When making flavoured spirits these are the tricky jars that will either enhance or worsen the final spirit .


Or you can just do a single run, make a reasonable fores cut (3mls per liter of wash), collect into a single container until the distillate is down to 50% ABV, drink and enjoy. No fuss, no muss. You can continue to collect past this point separately and add back to the next wash just before distillation if so desired.

Just sayin.

P.S. Donned my flame suit before submitting.


There's an older gentleman around here that always made a little bit for himself. I asked him if he made any cuts and he looked at me kinda puzzled. He said he tossed the first pint, and then collected everything. When it won't burn in a spoon, ya got all the good stuff.
Swedish Pride wrote:
get a brix reading on said ball bearings and then you can find out how much fermentables are in there
Antler24
Trainee
 
Posts: 978
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:00 pm

Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Antler24 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:37 pm

Twisted Brick wrote:
Kareltje wrote:This kinds of measurements are so often off the expected values, that I do not much care anymore.


I figured as much. Tracking all the temps, volumes and rates is all rather new and exciting to me, as much to understand the performance of the still as much as the process. I fully expect one day to move on past collecting all the stats, and hopefully return to them one day to deftly make my cuts with only 3 jars.


I used to measure the abv of every jar, but I don't really see the point anymore. Now I only check abv after cuts have been done and blended, to adjust for aging.
Swedish Pride wrote:
get a brix reading on said ball bearings and then you can find out how much fermentables are in there
Antler24
Trainee
 
Posts: 978
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:00 pm

Next

Return to Novice Distillers



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: flymoon and 5 guests