Better Cuts with better Dilution

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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby thecroweater » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:07 pm

Look (sigh) the guy wrote donned my flame suit because he knew he was fishing for a rise, his method is way inferior to the method he quoted and he knew that before posting hence why he wrote it thus :ewink: Some might call that trolling others thread shitting, I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt but am struggling.
Yeah we all know some old guy that makes RAF hooch power to them, and column stills naturally are not double ran but they don't produce singlings. Listen guys some one has gone to the trouble of presenting an easy to follow guide to cuts not just what they are and what to do with them but how or one way anyways, so I don't get all this misdirection and posts about how some muppet used some other sigogglin approach, who cares. A lot of the guys here including the OP are about methods to produce the best libation from a given wash/mash not how bad you can do it and still be almost drinkable. As for shiners , you think they are all Jim Bob dipsticks guess again, Back home years ago I had stuff that was smooth as mothers milk and at least one that felt like it fizzed in ya mouth like it had a lump of carbide in it, that crap was likely singlings in a simple pot maybe with fores removed (and maybe not). I'm not getting the point here, is it no one should strive to do better than the lousiest crap achievable? Or if someone points out a good method some else needs to point out that with a bit less work you can make a sub par product or do you think uncut singlings will get the same result :crazy:
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Kareltje » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:02 pm

Antler24 wrote:
Twisted Brick wrote:
Kareltje wrote:This kinds of measurements are so often off the expected values, that I do not much care anymore.


I figured as much. Tracking all the temps, volumes and rates is all rather new and exciting to me, as much to understand the performance of the still as much as the process. I fully expect one day to move on past collecting all the stats, and hopefully return to them one day to deftly make my cuts with only 3 jars.


I used to measure the abv of every jar, but I don't really see the point anymore. Now I only check abv after cuts have been done and blended, to adjust for aging.

To use Yummyrums method, you have to know the ABV of every jar. Or at least every jar you doubt about, so not the first heads and the last tails.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Kareltje » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:05 pm

thecroweater, (and other posters of course) I apologize for taking the discussion so far off topic. :oops:
Did not do any good.
Maybe you can delete these posts?
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Twisted Brick » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:40 pm

Antler24 wrote:
I used to measure the abv of every jar, but I don't really see the point anymore. Now I only check abv after cuts have been done and blended, to adjust for aging.


Where I would like to get, eventually, is being astute enough to blend portions of the jars that were included in the first (final?) cut. IIRC, I saw this being done in Popcorn Sutton's "Last Batch of Damn Likker" movie. I just dumped the contents of all of my 'made the cut' jars in one vessel and measured the ABV.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Antler24 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:31 pm

Twisted Brick wrote:
Antler24 wrote:
I used to measure the abv of every jar, but I don't really see the point anymore. Now I only check abv after cuts have been done and blended, to adjust for aging.


Where I would like to get, eventually, is being astute enough to blend portions of the jars that were included in the first (final?) cut. IIRC, I saw this being done in Popcorn Sutton's "Last Batch of Damn Likker" movie. I just dumped the contents of all of my 'made the cut' jars in one vessel and measured the ABV.


That's all I do. Take 1ml same from each jar starting in the center and working towards tails, then heads. When I start to get to the jars I know are definitely tails/heads I lower to .5 ml. When I've got a blend I like it all goes into a stainless pot. Diluted to 62 and into gallon jugs and quart jars.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Yummyrum » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:32 am

Kareltje wrote:To use Yummyrums method, you have to know the ABV of every jar. Or at least every jar you doubt about, so not the first heads and the last tails.


Kareltje , I hope I did not make it sound like this .
Yes you need to have an idea what the sample ABV is but you don't need to be super anal ......every few jars is fine :thumbup: ....you don't need to take a reading every jar ...thats absolutely not needed , however there is nothing wrong with knowing what each jar is .....if thats your thing :thumbup:
I don't take a reading every jars ....I just need to know roughly where a few jars are .

and as I said in the OP , I have one cuts tube for my VM stil which is Typically about 95% ABV .....I have another which is for my pot still which is 60-80% and one for the plated still which is 85-95 %

But Kareltje you are bang on :thumbup: ....first heads and late tails ...who gives a shit what ABV they are ...they are never going to end up in the mix ....you know that , I know that ...newbies need to sus this stuff out for themselves ..and there is only one way :wave:

The whole topic is not about being super critical but rather to be aware of dilluting to a point around 35% ABV :wink: ......doesn't matter if its 30 or 40 ....( how ever less is best :yawn: ) .....the point is to not fry the crap out of your taste buds by throwing back shots of 85% ....in large amounts so you have no friggin idea what you are doing . :D
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby zapata » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:55 am

If you run a steady power pot still, you can extrapolate ABV between jars pretty accurately. If jar 1 is 75% and jar 3 is 65% then jar 2 is near enough to 70% to not bother measuring for tasting purposes. Especially considering that is an extreme example and most of us are probably seeing a much smaller abv drop from jar to jar.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Yummyrum » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:25 pm

zapata wrote:If you run a steady power pot still, you can extrapolate ABV between jars pretty accurately. If jar 1 is 75% and jar 3 is 65% then jar 2 is near enough to 70% to not bother measuring for tasting purposes. Especially considering that is an extreme example and most of us are probably seeing a much smaller abv drop from jar to jar.

Absolutely :thumbup:
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Kareltje » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:53 pm

OK, I get the point.
I ran a run yesterday and the jars are waiting. Will try them tomorrow and use a 12 mm copper pipe to take samples. Maybe I will make some instrument out of it for the future.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby thecroweater » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:11 pm

Kareltje wrote:thecroweater, (and other posters of course) I apologize for taking the discussion so far off topic. :oops:
Did not do any good.
Maybe you can delete these posts?

I don't like deleting, so I'll see what the consensus is on that, it never was going to do any good as you knew already the better method. His "fear" you were defending was feigned or a least unfounded and looked more like contrived to cause a dog pile, something which happily doesn't really happen here anymore.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Shine0n » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:28 pm

Completely AWESOME!
I didn't check to see if it's a sticky but I will and look forward to referring people to it.

Great job in the details.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Old Town » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:45 am

Ok stupid question I'm sure but how do you calculat where to put your marks on the tube.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=68702 Grate learning tool for cuts.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Bushman » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:02 am

Old Town wrote:Ok stupid question I'm sure but how do you calculat where to put your marks on the tube.

For me an exact measurement isn't as important as having a mark to make exact measurements for each taste test the same.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Kareltje » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:48 am

But if you want to compare subsequent samples of the same run, each of a lower % than the previous, the marks must be more or less evenly spaced.
The example is in the opening post.
Suppose you want to dilute to 35 %, according to Yummyrum.
Suppose your sample is 70 %.
Then you make a mark on the tube and you dip your tube until that mark. You put your finger on the top and take the sample out.
Then you put your tube until that very same mark into a glass of clear water, take the volume out and dilute your alcohol. The result will be 70 % divided by twice the original volume, makes 35 %
Say a pot a bit further down the run is 35 %. Then you take a sample of the alcohol and take no water, so you stick the tube not in the water, for you already have 35 %!
Now the space between the 70 % mark and the lower end of the tube is for samples between 70 % and 35 % and is evenly spaced. So you measure it, divide by 7 and at every 7th you make a mark for (70-35)/7 = 5 % less.
If you want to use the same tube for 70 % and up, you measure the same 1/7th distance for every 5 %.
Capice?
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Old Town » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:10 am

Kareltje wrote:But if you want to compare subsequent samples of the same run, each of a lower % than the previous, the marks must be more or less evenly spaced.
The example is in the opening post.
Suppose you want to dilute to 35 %, according to Yummyrum.
Suppose your sample is 70 %.
Then you make a mark on the tube and you dip your tube until that mark. You put your finger on the top and take the sample out.
Then you put your tube until that very same mark into a glass of clear water, take the volume out and dilute your alcohol. The result will be 70 % divided by twice the original volume, makes 35 %
Say a pot a bit further down the run is 35 %. Then you take a sample of the alcohol and take no water, so you stick the tube not in the water, for you already have 35 %!
Now the space between the 70 % mark and the lower end of the tube is for samples between 70 % and 35 % and is evenly spaced. So you measure it, divide by 7 and at every 7th you make a mark for (70-35)/7 = 5 % less.
If you want to use the same tube for 70 % and up, you measure the same 1/7th distance for every 5 %.
Capice?


Thank you for the reply but your making my head hurt. Bushmans example sounds like it's a little more my speed..
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Bushman » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:45 am

Point well taken Kareltje :thumbup:
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Kareltje » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:17 am

OK, I'll try again.

I use sample pots of the same size, and collect about 100 ml in each. (On long strokes with constant temperature I use larger pots, of course.)
I measured how far I can stick the tube in the pot and it appeared to be 42 mm. 42 / 7 is 6 mm, so I made marks on every 6th mm. Started at 35 % (that is not a mark but the lower end of the stick), than 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 95 %.
Now when I stick the tube in a samplepot, I dip it in until 70 % mark and take the sample.
Then I stick it in water until the % of the sample in the samplepot and take the correct amount of water.
In doing so, I always have 35 % to taste.

So:
First pot: 90 %, I stick it in until the 70 % mark, then I stick the tube in water until the 90 % mark and mix the taken amounts: lo and behold: the result is 35 %!
Second pot: 70 %. I stick the tube in the pot until the 70 % mark, then I stick the tube in water until 70 %: resulting in 35 %.
Third pot: 45 %. I take 70 % mark of the pot and I take 45 % mark water: I get 35 % mixture.
Fourth: 35 %. 70 % mark of sample, 35 % mark, that is the end of the stick so nothing, water. Resulting in 35 % mixture.

If you can not wrap your head around it: trust us: it works!
Or rather: check it and see how it always works!
Last edited by Kareltje on Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby zapata » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:23 pm

Well said Kareltje. I'll be honest in reading the thread I didnt actually wrap my head around marking the graduations, in my head I just read it as "oh yeah you could calculate it, mark it, and it'll work". But your example makes it very clear.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Kareltje » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:43 pm

Well, I checked the math, before I believed it.
But it is a very nice method: failsafe and correct and you only have to think about it one time. For lazy people like me that is a big plus!! :clap:
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Old Town » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:57 pm

Damn took me awhile but I got it thanks for braking it down for me.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Yummyrum » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:12 am

Thanks kareltje . Nicely explained ..... and thanks for getting out the calculator and proving it :thumbup:
LOL when I first worked it out I wasn't expecting it to be so simple .... like you I had a "light bulb " moment .

Now the one I use and showed is for 35% abv as that is where I think is a good place .....but

Once you get your head around it , you can see its dead easy to make one for any desired end ABV.
For example if you would prefer to taste at 30 % abv then make the end at 30 and you take samples at the 60 mark

If you would prefer to taste at 25% abv then make the end the 25 mark and take samples at the 50 mark :D

I perhaps didn't explain very well how to use it .

So to recap , always take a sample from a jar at the same mark every time . In the case of the 35% abv you would dip it up to the 70 mark .
Now when you dip it into the water , you go to the mark thats closest to the strength of the sample .p

Example : jar X is 81% abv
Dip the tube into jar X up to the 70 mark
Release
Dip the tube into the water up to the 80% mark
Release

Jar Y is 60% abv
Again , dip tube into jar Y up to the 70 mark
Release
Dip tube into water up to the 60% mark
Release
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Kareltje » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:49 am

Even better explanation. :thumbup:

I was thinking of making one or two of copper 12 or 15 mm pipe.
And thinking of someone finding it later, and trying to figure out what that instrument possibly could be. :crazy: :wtf: :mrgreen:
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby trebor66n2 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:16 pm

I've found that collecting in small jars and letting them breathe for a few days, is the best way for me to tell the difference. Off the still it all tastes the same. After a few days I can smell the difference. I'm new to this though working on ssjm generation 5.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Yummyrum » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:50 am

trebor66n2 wrote:I've found that collecting in small jars and letting them breathe for a few days, is the best way for me to tell the difference. Off the still it all tastes the same. After a few days I can smell the difference. I'm new to this though working on ssjm generation 5.


trebor66n2 , When you say" off the still it all tastes the same " are you dilutting it or just trying to taste it straight , if straight then this is the whole reason of this Topic .

But you are right that airing for a day or two will help with cuts ...but you really should dilute still
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby freefall » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:17 am

Sounds like a great method..I will give it a go on my next run. Thank you.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby trebor66n2 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:37 am

I usually us my finger. A couple drips, let it run off my finger and put finger on tounge.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby Bodhidan » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:50 pm

Thanks for linking me to this thread, it's really helpful. I have found that many folks talking about rum are running it on a pot set up with thumper. Most of the advice I have received centers around temps and output ABV which doesn't really apply to a plated column where you see 93% from take off to tails. My still charge is about the same volume as yours so I was wondering what the appropriate volume of the factions you see. Currently I collect 2 500 ml jars after the foreshots before moving to 1 l jars for the remainder of the run. Based on your advice I I will move to 500 ml jars, at least until I settle on a recipe so have a measure of predictability.

When running rum what type of characteristics do you look for when moving from heads to hearts and hearts to tails? I have to day that my biggest surprise when running rum is that initially it is decidedly non rum like. After some time and aeration the product changes completely.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby cdd » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:29 am

what to do whit 93%abv heads cut? There are no foreshots in there just heads and some early hearts. Is it worth keeping for later use?
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby still_stirrin » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:25 am

cdd wrote:what to do whit 93%abv heads cut? There are no foreshots in there just heads and some early hearts. Is it worth keeping for later use?

Gotta’ reflux head? You can milk the top end a little bit with a good reflux. Also, you might want to treat it a little with a dose of calcium carbonate (sodium carbonate would work too) and let the heads set for a couple of days before refluxing. It should help convert some of the acetates to good ethanol for you.

Or...you could use it as a “firestarter” for your charcoal grill.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Postby cdd » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:56 pm

I think I'll just toss this stuff. I'm spending almost 1 hour to compress and slowly remove the heads.
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