Better Cuts with better Dilution

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Yummyrum
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by Yummyrum »

Bodhidan wrote:...:.. so I was wondering what the appropriate volume of the factions you see.
Typically I will get about 5-6 jars with about 300- 400mls each in them of heads ..... then around 10-12 jars about 400mls n each of hearts ... then maybe one or two jars of tails . .... once I've detected tails on my plated still I shut down as there is bugger all left in the boiler worth scavenging

When running rum what type of characteristics do you look for when moving from heads to hearts and hearts to tails? I have to day that my biggest surprise when running rum is that initially it is decidedly non rum like. After some time and aeration the product changes completely.
I agree that fresh Rum tastes nothing like aged Rum so if you are looking for a charactoristic Rum flavour , you're not going to find it .
So I find the transition to tails is easy to find first . Tails in a plated still will present itself as a sudden acrid taste that is very horrible due to the compression that plated stills afford .
The heads /hearts cut is a bit more tricky . I find it often easier to have a taste of say jar 2 or 3 .... they will be really sweet and chemically , it gives you an idea of what you don't want . That sickly chemical taste will deminish as you go up through the jars . By about jars 6-7 it will be almost none existant and the clean hearts will be present . In my case where I use all molases , I will have this nice fairly constant molasses flavoured Rum for the next 10 or so jars .. so where you decide to transition from the late heads to the hearts is the majic question and this is where making up a few blends to tru can help

However it is the late heads that provide a lot of Charactor to your Rum. You need to leave a bit of that sweet chemical flavour n there . Sadly the nicest smelling jar to me is often jar 1 or 2 ....it has all those nice fruity banana smells but it is right there with the fores and early heads
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by Bodhidan »

Thanks, this helps a lot.

I have been able to be pretty effective at separating the tales just by paying attention to water vapor condensing on the lower plates. Once I notice this on two of 4 there is a distinct change over in flavor.

I may have been incorporating too much of the heads for the reason you mentioned, they smell fruity and good but do have that string chemical undertone.

Based on threads here I had moved away from a nearly all Mollases washes to a nearly equal mix of molasses to Turbino sugar. I have since moved back to nearly all molasses as it really came into its own once I let it sit on some oak for a while. Even the smell as it ferments is so much richer.

Thanks again
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Bodhidan wrote: I have since moved back to nearly all molasses as it really came into its own once I let it sit on some oak for a while.
I couldn't agree more Bodhidan, Nothing beats 100% molasses rum. :thumbup: Time and oak do wonderful things to it.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by JohnnyJumpUp »

Great write up! Thanks for the ideas
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by Bodhidan »

Yummyrum wrote:
Bodhidan wrote:...:.. so I was wondering what the appropriate volume of the factions you see.
Typically I will get about 5-6 jars with about 300- 400mls each in them of heads ..... then around 10-12 jars about 400mls n each of hearts ... then maybe one or two jars of tails . .... once I've detected tails on my plated still I shut down as there is bugger all left in the boiler worth scavenging

When running rum what type of characteristics do you look for when moving from heads to hearts and hearts to tails? I have to day that my biggest surprise when running rum is that initially it is decidedly non rum like. After some time and aeration the product changes completely.
I agree that fresh Rum tastes nothing like aged Rum so if you are looking for a charactoristic Rum flavour , you're not going to find it .
So I find the transition to tails is easy to find first . Tails in a plated still will present itself as a sudden acrid taste that is very horrible due to the compression that plated stills afford .
The heads /hearts cut is a bit more tricky . I find it often easier to have a taste of say jar 2 or 3 .... they will be really sweet and chemically , it gives you an idea of what you don't want. That sickly chemical taste will diminish as you go up through the jars. By about jars 6-7 it will be almost none existent and the clean hearts will be present. In my case where I use all molasses, I will have this nice fairly constant molasses flavored Rum for the next 10 or so jars .. so where you decide to transition from the late heads to the hearts is the magic question and this is where making up a few blends to tru can help

However it is the late heads that provide a lot of Charactor to your Rum. You need to leave a bit of that sweet chemical flavour n there. Sadly the nicest smelling jar to me is often jar 1 or 2 ....it has all those nice fruity banana smells but it is right there with the fores and early heads

Tonight I ran an all black strap down to about 50%. Once my bottom two plates knocked off turned of the dephlegmator and collected about 500ml of 90% down to 60%. I smelled and tasted the distillate which was almost flowery and left a distinct molasses aroma on my fingers. I had been cutting tails out far before this in previous blends but This seems to be where some pretty serious flavor resides. On your plated set up do you mix in product that deep?

It seems that I cut off before that horrible taste you mentioned...I kept collecting down to 20 running out last bits.... I didn't taste that but can't imagine there's anything good down there.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by butterpants »

Pipetteman for small dilutions! Spoons and straws are for savages... =)
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by Antler24 »

Use a dropper to take 1ml from each jar to play around with blends and cuts, combine in a shot glass. For the rum tails I usually make the cut similar to a whiskey, but there is usually a jar or 2 well past that point that will have alot of nice flavour. It'll still have the tails characteristics but be more subdued.
Swedish Pride wrote:
get a brix reading on said ball bearings and then you can find out how much fermentables are in there
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by Bodhidan »

I guess my biggest challenge is that the product I am cutting tastes nothing like the product that comes off the oak in a few months. Perhaps this is the wrong place for asking the questions I am. My interest is just getting some detailed advice on what to look for when making my cuts. Currently, I am using the methodologies outlined in this thread and doing my best to assume what will give the proper character over time. Obviously, practice will make perfect but when you are aging things for 6 months any advice I can get upfront is extremely valuable.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I ordered five of these 10ml glass pipettes from Amazon - $12.74
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008F ... 0DER&psc=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
They should work well with this method of cutting in distilled water to make cuts decisions.

Cheers!
-j
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by Badmotivator »

Bodhidan wrote:I guess my biggest challenge is that the product I am cutting tastes nothing like the product that comes off the oak in a few months. Perhaps this is the wrong place for asking the questions I am. My interest is just getting some detailed advice on what to look for when making my cuts. Currently, I am using the methodologies outlined in this thread and doing my best to assume what will give the proper character over time. Obviously, practice will make perfect but when you are aging things for 6 months any advice I can get upfront is extremely valuable.
My friend, you are struggling with one of the deep and shadowy mysteries of this craft. No one can answer the question: how much headsiness and tailsiness, when aged properly and sufficiently, will I find agreeable? We know for a certainty that some amount of the wicked ends of the distillation WILL age out or mature, but how much? How long? Does it improve the flavor when it does, or just the yield?

I can’t offer you an answer, but I can offer some commiseration and an idea that should fortify you a bit: If you only take jars that aren’t super foul and you age your blend in a good barrel (or barrel substitute hint hint) for a year or more, you will certainly get something worth drinking. And if you take extremely careful and detailed notes on how you selected what you put in, you might begin to learn what works best for you over the years.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by Bodhidan »

Thank you, solid advice...keep at it & give it time with solid note-taking.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by Antler24 »

The product changes so much over time it's very difficult to tell you when/where/what to cut or keep. 2 barrels sitting side by side with the same spirit, proof, age, temp, humidity, etc may be very different.
Swedish Pride wrote:
get a brix reading on said ball bearings and then you can find out how much fermentables are in there
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by butterpants »

Badmotivator wrote:
Bodhidan wrote:I guess my biggest challenge is that the product I am cutting tastes nothing like the product that comes off the oak in a few months. Perhaps this is the wrong place for asking the questions I am. My interest is just getting some detailed advice on what to look for when making my cuts. Currently, I am using the methodologies outlined in this thread and doing my best to assume what will give the proper character over time. Obviously, practice will make perfect but when you are aging things for 6 months any advice I can get upfront is extremely valuable.
My friend, you are struggling with one of the deep and shadowy mysteries of this craft. No one can answer the question: how much headsiness and tailsiness, when aged properly and sufficiently, will I find agreeable? We know for a certainty that some amount of the wicked ends of the distillation WILL age out or mature, but how much? How long? Does it improve the flavor when it does, or just the yield?

I can’t offer you an answer, but I can offer some commiseration and an idea that should fortify you a bit: If you only take jars that aren’t super foul and you age your blend in a good barrel (or barrel substitute hint hint) for a year or more, you will certainly get something worth drinking. And if you take extremely careful and detailed notes on how you selected what you put in, you might begin to learn what works best for you over the years.
Nice!
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by ErikESP »

Would I be a total muppet to use a refractometer to dilute my cuts jars samples down to the same abv (35-30%) and make my decisions from there? Just a new guy here looking for pointers...
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by Single Malt Yinzer »

jonnys_spirit wrote:I ordered five of these 10ml glass pipettes from Amazon - $12.74
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008FRFOP6/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
They should work well with this method of cutting in distilled water to make cuts decisions.

Cheers!
-j
Add this: https://www.amazon.com/SEOH-PIPETTE-PUM ... B00191BW4C" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Get this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtwhkqygGhU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Yummyrum - This is a great thread. Thank you.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by Twisted Brick »

Single Malt Yinzer wrote:[

Add this: https://www.amazon.com/SEOH-PIPETTE-PUM ... B00191BW4C" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I'd think twice before using anything plastic.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by Single Malt Yinzer »

The distillate does not touch the plastic, or shouldn't. Everything should be measured out in the glass tube. The plastic part only creates a vacuum to pull the distillate into the tube.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by Twisted Brick »

Ah ha! It's a fancy pipette bulb! I'm still working with the old rubber kind... :|
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by thecroweater »

The better method I saw (and by coincidence I think by this OP) was to use a small glass tube and placing thumb over the end for an air lock . This way you can get easily the exact amount required for the same repeatable result with zero chance of contamination. I use a teaspoon and tablespoon but do intend to get some tubes some times as it is a much better method than the kind of the same spoon method.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by Dalejr68 »

wow
informative
very nice
thank :clap: :clap: you!
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by SherrodBrown »

I have so far taken my cuts from the 4th decentile to 7.5 but Im starting to wonder if some of that wet socks smell is from early tails. Another factor Im using is 2nd distill volume. I go for exactly 29 percent when only doing a wash distill.
10 gallons mash =2.9 gallon low wines. After 2.9 gallon I throw away/cut off the heat/ close the wiener trolley even though it propably contains some lower ABV.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by SherrodBrown »

One rather interesting observation after a few runs is that a higher alcohol content doesn't nessesarily mean a pure distillate. It is simply easier to detect the off notes on the palate with a low alcohol spirit. Weak and Strong liquor are basically the same. One has more water than the other. In a sence it is a good way to go for a low ABV and make it work first. wet socks tasting substances are on either side of the fine middle cut and there are no shortcuts to fine spirits other than the right cuts. If that was not the case it would certainly indicate accumulated tails or something ( and consequently a bad product.)
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by FizzRolyat »

Thanks all for the really good info in the write up above.

Only thing I am doing different is to rather than use a tea spoon, is to use a ceramic Chinese soup spoon. The flat bottom sits better on the bench and is easier to pick up and not spill anything. Hope this helps everyone's 'Spooning'. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by The Baker »

To dip into a jar I bend a spoon to a right angle just before the head.

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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by Copperhead road »

I learned to do my cuts following yummys guide, he even sent me the Little glass lab tubes to make the job easier.

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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by Anyhowe »

Not sure where to ask this. I did look but have not seen it yet. I have to leave town after a run. How long can I leave the cuts covered before tasting and blending? Thanks.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by acfixer69 »

Covered in proper containers indefinitely but with just airing membrane it will lose all the alcohol.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by Crate »

Just read this full thread very informative, thanks to OP for the great methodology.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by kornflake »

Been at this hobby awhile now and I'm always looking to refine and improve my skills. Going to give this a shot and see if it helps making my cuts.

Never to experienced to go back and read through the beginner forums.
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Re: Better Cuts with better Dilution

Post by Fredistiller »

The shape of the glass you use makes also a big difference. Better to use a type similar to the "Glencairn glass" or the "maitre de chais" that keeps the flavours inside.
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