Why didn't my corn & wheat mash work

roygold101 · Post by **roygold101** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:19 pm

Today I made a mash of 4lbs. Corn
2 lbs malted red wheat
10 lbs sugar
32 oz corn syrup
5 gallons natural spring water
After steeping corn from180 f to 155 f added malted wheat steeped covered in water cooler for hour. S.g. only 1.0130. What happened. After adding syrup and sugar sg got up to 1.1270 or 17 percnt abv. Why didng malted wheat work.
By the way I added analyse enzyme so all should be good?
Please help

Post by **thecroweater** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:38 pm

Not sure what went wrong if anything with your mash, your expectations might be to high. The syrup you added is pushing the abv right up and maybe past the maximum for most yeasts, I thing you might want to get another fermenter and split your washes before topping back up with water. The a amylase is not the only one you need unless you have a reason to think you have long chain sugars that need be branching you will need a beta amylase or a amlyglucanase as well .

Post by **still_stirrin** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:57 pm

Didja' grind your corn and wheat?

The "steeping" probably wasn't enough to gelatinize the corn...which is a predecessor to saccharification (turning the starches into fermentable sugars).

Chances are, you didn't get conversion from your corn AND the wheat malt because you didn't mash them long enough at the proper temperatures. Shooting from the hip often results in "misfires" unless you've mashed all grain beer before. Have you?

This is a classic "something's fucked up" because "I don't know what I'm doing", with a little bit of "can you guys fix it for me" thown in for good measure. Sorry dude, you've got to do the mandatory reading first. It's the rules.
ss

Post by **Oldvine Zin** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:25 am

Sounds like if you add some yeast and let it ferment you might have something useful for a cleaning run. Then you can look in the tried and true recipes for something to make that you would want to drink.

Be safe and good luck
OVZ

Post by **Pikey** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:38 am

Ok so ignoring any contribution of teh corn etc - you have 12 lb sugar added to 5 galls (US? ) of water. - That should ferment ok and should make a sweet wine withh a decent wine yeaast. - IF you add some citric acid or the juice of a couple of lemons and some yeast nutrient. Then splash it about for five - ten minutes to get some oxygen in there. Alternatively you could add another gallon and a quart, to bring the sugar level down to "Dry wine" quantities.

You should get some flavour from the wash, but not a huge amount. It should be drinkable - save a bottle for comparison when you get more experience

NEGaxSEGa · Post by **NEGaxSEGa** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:51 am

Your wheat was crushed, right?

roygold101 · Post by **roygold101** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:12 am

Yes all grains were crushed
Didn't shoot from hip. I did some research on temps for a while before I attempted grains.
I did add yeast nutrient.
With exception of syrup it was a tried and true recipe according to George from Barley and Hops.
Sorry if my question offended some(ss), i did do lots of mandatory reading.
Pretty sure 155 f is right for 6 row , guess it's not for crushed malted red wheat.
How hot and how long on steeping corn? And thanks for all the replies.
Fixing to mash in corn and 6 row this morning . Any suggestions?

roygold101 · Post by **roygold101** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:25 am

By the way.. it's working off nicely this morning! According to my airlock and froth on top.

roygold101 · Post by **roygold101** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:22 am

Pikey wrote:Ok so ignoring any contribution of teh corn etc - you have 12 lb sugar added to 5 galls (US? ) of water. - That should ferment ok and should make a sweet wine withh a decent wine yeaast. - IF you add some citric acid or the juice of a couple of lemons and some yeast nutrient. Then splash it about for five - ten minutes to get some oxygen in there. Alternatively you could add another gallon and a quart, to bring the sugar level down to "Dry wine" quantities.

You should get some flavour from the wash, but not a huge amount. It should be drinkable - save a bottle for comparison when you get more experience

What exactly does the citric acid do?

Post by **greggn** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:51 am

>With exception of syrup it was a tried and true recipe according to George from Barley and Hops.

... and what was George's answer ?

Post by **still_stirrin** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:55 am

roygold101 wrote:Today I made a mash (mess) of:
4lbs. Corn <-- you should simmer the corn "meal" in 1-1/2 to 2 gallons of water for an hour to 90 minutes, or until it turns into a pastey poridge. Add hi-temp enzymes if you've got them.

2 lbs malted red wheat <-- you add this to the mash after the gelatinization of the corn. Add the wheat with barley if you're planning to add barley. These should be added to the mash at 145-150*F to maximize fermentable sugar production. Add these grains to the corn poridge and also add 2 more gallons of hot water. This mash should not get hotter than 150*F if you want to keep it fermentable. Stir this perodically until your iodine check comes out (amber) correct....not black (or dark purple), which indicates the presence of starches.

10 lbs sugar <-- only add sugar if you need to get the OG where you want to ferment...for this recipe, I'd suggest no higher than 1.075...unless you like hot alcohols in your spirits. It'll produce a much better spirit if you don't attempt to push the potential alcohol level above 10%ABV.

32 oz corn syrup <-- probably don't even need this expensive adjunct in your mash. Save it for your pancakes...or making Caramel Corn for the kids.

5 gallons natural spring water

After steeping corn from180 f to 155 f <-- see my comments above about temperatures. added malted wheat steeped covered in water cooler for hour. S.g. only 1.0130. <-- is this in 5 gallons of water?

What happened. What didn't happen? You didn't convert the potential from the grains. Lack of knowledge here obviously. After adding syrup and sugar sg got up to 1.1270 or 17 percnt abv. Why didng malted wheat work. <-- you didn't make the environment correct for the enzymes to work properly.

By the way I added analyse enzyme so all should be good? ya' think?

Please help

nuntius01 · Post by **nuntius01** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:56 am

still_stirrin wrote:Didja' grind your corn and wheat?

The "steeping" probably wasn't enough to gelatinize the corn...which is a predecessor to saccharification (turning the starches into fermentable sugars).

Chances are, you didn't get conversion from your corn AND the wheat malt because you didn't mash them long enough at the proper temperatures. Shooting from the hip often results in "misfires" unless you've mashed all grain beer before. Have you?

This is a classic "something's fucked up" because "I don't know what I'm doing", with a little bit of "can you guys fix it for me" thown in for good measure. Sorry dude, you've got to do the mandatory reading first. It's the rules.
ss

i have to steal that line this is a classic.

Post by **Pikey** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:57 am

Yeast likes an acid wash - It lowers the PH a tad.

However, if you're watching "George" from "Barley and Hops" - You're likely using Turbo yeast - which will have acid in the pack.

Or has "George" moved on from Turbo and the T500 by now ?

roygold101 · Post by **roygold101** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:07 am

Yes he has. He now promotes using distillers active dry yeast or daddy for short.

roygold101 · Post by **roygold101** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:18 am

still_stirrin wrote:
roygold101 wrote:Today I made a mash (mess) of:
4lbs. Corn <-- you should simmer the corn "meal" in 1-1/2 to 2 gallons of water for an hour to 90 minutes, or until it turns into a pastey poridge. Add hi-temp enzymes if you've got them.

2 lbs malted red wheat <-- you add this to the mash after the gelatinization of the corn. Add the wheat with barley if you're planning to add barley. These should be added to the mash at 145-150*F to maximize fermentable sugar production. Add these grains to the corn poridge and also add 2 more gallons of hot water. This mash should not get hotter than 150*F if you want to keep it fermentable. Stir this perodically until your iodine check comes out (amber) correct....not black (or dark purple), which indicates the presence of starches.

10 lbs sugar <-- only add sugar if you need to get the OG where you want to ferment...for this recipe, I'd suggest no higher than 1.075...unless you like hot alcohols in your spirits. It'll produce a much better spirit if you don't attempt to push the potential alcohol level above 10%ABV.

32 oz corn syrup <-- probably don't even need this expensive adjunct in your mash. Save it for your pancakes...or making Caramel Corn for the kids.

5 gallons natural spring water

After steeping corn from180 f to 155 f <-- see my comments above about temperatures. added malted wheat steeped covered in water cooler for hour. S.g. only 1.0130. <-- is this in 5 gallons of water?

What happened. What didn't happen? You didn't convert the potential from the grains. Lack of knowledge here obviously. After adding syrup and sugar sg got up to 1.1270 or 17 percnt abv. Why didng malted wheat work. <-- you didn't make the environment correct for the enzymes to work properly.

By the way I added analyse enzyme so all should be good? ya' think?

Please help

Thanks on all the advice. Lack of knowledge is obvious hence the question . No need in pointing that out. Will work on keeping potential abv to 10 percent.
Didn't use corn meal.. used cracked corn. And no I didn't think on a e that's why there was a question mark.
Does all newbies get a tounge lashing?
I did add my malted wheat at 155. Obviously I screwed up the breaking corn down.

roygold101 · Post by **roygold101** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:24 am

greggn wrote:>With exception of syrup it was a tried and true recipe according to George from Barley and Hops.

... and what was George's answer ?

Guess I'll have to call him and see. If they still field calls.

Post by **HDNB** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:01 pm

roygold101 wrote:Does all newbies get a tounge lashing?

don't think of it as a tongue lashing, think of it as gentle ribbing to encourage you to research and learn what you need to know before you need to know it.

cheers, have some fun! you have been getting good information here all without paying 2000 bucks for a moonshiners weekend university course.

StillerBoy · Post by **StillerBoy** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:29 pm

still_stirrin wrote:This is a classic "something's fucked up" because "I don't know what I'm doing", with a little bit of "can you guys fix it for me" thown in for good measure. Sorry dude, you've got to do the mandatory reading first. It's the rules.
ss

HDNB wrote:cheers, have some fun! you have been getting good information here all without paying 2000 bucks for a moonshiners weekend university course.

Got to save these quotes.. you guys the best..

Some super spoon feeding in this thread.. unfortunately, lots of server space is used and wasted for responding to this, which already exist, and none of them give towards the support and operating cost of the site, but give me the answers please..

roygold101 wrote:With exception of syrup it was a tried and true recipe according to George from Barley and Hops.

If I am not mistaken, tried and true recipe from another site, and comes here for help..
Go figure that out..

Mars

Post by **HDNB** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:34 pm

StillerBoy wrote:
Some super spoon feeding in this thread.. unfortunately, lots of server space is used and wasted for responding to this, which already exist, and none of them give towards the support and operating cost of the site, but give me the answers please..

Thats the difference between a forum and a library. people can choose to reply here instead of just pointing you to a row of books and telling you shhhh...
makes it a bit more fun for all.

and we can only hope that people are genuine and generous during the Christmas season and buck up a little scratch to keep the lights on and earn an orange jacket. not mandatory but it's the right thing to do and it's appreciated by all here now and to come later.

in case you didn't see it the donate button is at the bottom of the page!!

roygold101 · Post by **roygold101** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:41 pm

HDNB wrote:
roygold101 wrote:Does all newbies get a tounge lashing?
don't think of it as a tongue lashing, think of it as gentle ribbing to encourage you to research and learn what you need to know before you need to know it.

cheers, have some fun! you have been getting good information here all without paying 2000 bucks for a moonshiners weekend university course.

Research and learning landed me here

RedwoodHillBilly · Post by **RedwoodHillBilly** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:35 pm

HDNB wrote:
StillerBoy wrote:
Some super spoon feeding in this thread.. unfortunately, lots of server space is used and wasted for responding to this, which already exist, and none of them give towards the support and operating cost of the site, but give me the answers please..

Thats the difference between a forum and a library. people can choose to reply here instead of just pointing you to a row of books and telling you shhhh...
makes it a bit more fun for all.

and we can only hope that people are genuine and generous during the Christmas season and buck up a little scratch to keep the lights on and earn an orange jacket. not mandatory but it's the right thing to do and it's appreciated by all here now and to come later.
in case you didn't see it the donate button is at the bottom of the page!!

Well said

Post by **thecroweater** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:02 pm

what seems to be overlooked is the assumption the mashing was no good. 1.030 could actually yield a respectable 6.5% under the right conditions, not to scungy considering a few rookie errors that were made, I kinda dropped that hint in my first reply. As ya chucked all that other sugar in there there is no point but a low carb beer enzyme in the ferment would have got you mighty close to 7%. I have no idea how fermentable corn syrup is and if there is unfermentable sugar as corn syrup is so expensive here using is not a sensible option so I've never bothered to look into it. There are enzymes to break down almost any carbohydrates but a lot are not worth dicking with.

Cu29er · Post by **Cu29er** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:56 pm

.

Expect to do your AG experiments for a while before you get there, don't add sugar until you are satisfied with the AG performance -- all the way to the bottle. Otherwise you mask your AG process performance with the added sugar and never improve your AG. Corn is hard as the temps have to be so high that you constantly risk scorching the batch, must keep water temp above 180F while adding all the corn, do a little grain addition at a time while stirring -- and don't scorch.

There's a quote about mashing I like from the Edradour Distillery youtube video tour ""if you don't get this bit right you don't get anything right in the rest of the facility..."
If you watch that series, they are working with barley and the temps they quote are lower than corn seems to need.

.

TDick · Post by **TDick** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:26 pm

roygold101 wrote: Does all newbies get a tounge lashing?

Hi Roy!

: Welcome Down The Rabbit Hole.jpg (6.14 KiB) Viewed 1476 times

I'm not going to offer any technical advice on your questions because I am STILL a NOOB

and you are getting an education from some of the best.

My advice would be forget about George and concentrate your studies here.
I am NOT saying he is wrong. IMO there are many ways to execute this "hobby"
many wrong, not as many right, and more than one BEST way.
That is what is fun and maddening as HELL

at the same time.
Just My N

B Opinion
1. Read the basics, then read them again.
2. Look for a Tried & True recipe you like and read it. Several times. Mine is one of Jimbo's & I have read it FROM THE BEGINNING, then HIS posts on it probably a dozen times, it not more. When you read it from the beginning, you get a much better picture of the recipe and the logical process.
By the way, even after I read the recipe and MOST of the 30 page thread the first time, I asked a question.
The reply was, "That was covered on Page 1.

. So yes, many of us have been there.

So trust me you didn't get a tongue lashing. (If you have hurt feelings, you should just go back to George I guess

)
Best of luck, stay HERE and

: Merry Christmas!.jpg (12.13 KiB) Viewed 1476 times

Post by **BayouShine** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:10 pm

Looking a little closer at this, it's not the trainwreck it seems to be.

You missed an important concept that most FNG's should learn. Corn is a bitch!

The size of the crack, the temperature and length of cooking time all played into getting zero sugars from your corn. If you factor out the corn and just use the 2lb of wheat in 5gal, you come in at 85% efficiency. So, there's a small plus side to what happened.

Grind the corn down closer to a cornmeal consistency, cook it hotter and longer, and you will see much better results. Also, bring your grain total up to 2lb/gal and save the table sugar for baking cookies (if your goal is a true AG). You should come in somewhere around 1.06-1.07 for an OG.

Post by **Skipper1953** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:22 pm

stillerBoy wrote: Some super spoon feeding in this thread.. unfortunately, lots of server space is used and wasted for responding to this, which already exist, and none of them give towards the support and operating cost of the site, but give me the answers please..

Seems to me there is a lot of server space wasted with this kind of ... Aw, never mind. My signature says what I think about wasted server space and who is wasting it. Gawd!

Edit: I just put my money where my mouth is. Should orange or yellow or whatever the hell that color is soon.

RedwoodHillBilly · Post by **RedwoodHillBilly** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:02 pm

Skipper1953 wrote:
stillerBoy wrote: Some super spoon feeding in this thread.. unfortunately, lots of server space is used and wasted for responding to this, which already exist, and none of them give towards the support and operating cost of the site, but give me the answers please..
Seems to me there is a lot of server space wasted with this kind of ... Aw, never mind. My signature says what I think about wasted server space and who is wasting it. Gawd!

Edit: I just put my money where my mouth is. Should orange or yellow or whatever the hell that color is soon.

And I thought we got beyond the "jump on the new guy" kinda crap, oh well.

Home Distiller

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