Keg Planning

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jog666
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Keg Planning

Post by jog666 »

Sitting here reading & throwing ideas around in my head about how Im going to put my keg together. Everything from a couple ports for thermometers (keg & column), 2" port on the bottom for a dump valve, flip it & put a 6" for the column (down to 2") for cleaning & have a 2" drain. Part of me wants to keep it simple & deal with changes down the road if need be, other part looks down the road to make it easier on me. Even if I dont need it right now but foresee it.

While reading, Ive found that thermometers on a pot still are, at best, general reference and a parrot will do more for me. I really like the 2" flange & valve on the bottom idea since it would make draining for the next run much..... less chance of tearing stuff up, cleaner & quicker. Only issue I see with it is the ball valve down there and the heat. Im sure I can round up a high temp valve but does anyone have experience with a setup like that? Come off the 2" with a 90* & piece of straight long enough to get it away from the heat but it doesnt seem right with a foot (just a random number) of pipe below/out of the way of the burner. Maybe Im just over thinking it.

With what ive read/decided about the thermos, Im going to change up the head of the still. Was planning on necking the 2" down to 1/2" into a T. One side for a thermo & the other out to the condenser. Thinking about running the 2" in to a 90* before I neck it down to 1/2". (simplicity)

The last thing Im rattling around in my head are the 2" flanges. My career thinking has me wanting to go with stainless on the keg side. Problem is I dont want to spend the money on the welded ones online plus buying "specific" parts online. Im still working on my tigging skills & no where ready to try a copper/stainless joint. Do the copper flanges provide enough strength? Given it is properly built. Would a SS 2" flange with NPTs to copper NPT be suitable? Or should I pick up some scrap & dig up those old brazing skills I had once?


Sorry for the rambling but its one of those evenings I cant sleep & should be.
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by nuntius01 »

jog666 wrote:Sitting here reading & throwing ideas around in my head about how Im going to put my keg together. Everything from a couple ports for thermometers (keg & column), 2" port on the bottom for a dump valve, flip it & put a 6" for the column (down to 2") for cleaning & have a 2" drain. Part of me wants to keep it simple & deal with changes down the road if need be, other part looks down the road to make it easier on me. Even if I dont need it right now but foresee it.

While reading, Ive found that thermometers on a pot still are, at best, general reference and a parrot will do more for me. I really like the 2" flange & valve on the bottom idea since it would make draining for the next run much..... less chance of tearing stuff up, cleaner & quicker. Only issue I see with it is the ball valve down there and the heat. Im sure I can round up a high temp valve but does anyone have experience with a setup like that? Come off the 2" with a 90* & piece of straight long enough to get it away from the heat but it doesnt seem right with a foot (just a random number) of pipe below/out of the way of the burner. Maybe Im just over thinking it.
ok, the sta on the tank is nice. but the parrot at the end pays for itself. you want to put in a thermowell if you are going electric. flip the keg and you can use the 2" port that comes with the keg. use a 90triclamp to a 2" triclamp ball valve. works like a champ.
With what ive read/decided about the thermos, Im going to change up the head of the still. Was planning on necking the 2" down to 1/2" into a T. One side for a thermo & the other out to the condenser. Thinking about running the 2" in to a 90* before I neck it down to 1/2". (simplicity)
ok go big on the openng. i have a 6" then reduce down to 4". you can do 2" it's cheaper and works just fine. just takes a little longer.
The last thing Im rattling around in my head are the 2" flanges. My career thinking has me wanting to go with stainless on the keg side. Problem is I dont want to spend the money on the welded ones online plus buying "specific" parts online. Im still working on my tigging skills & no where ready to try a copper/stainless joint. Do the copper flanges provide enough strength? Given it is properly built. Would a SS 2" flange with NPTs to copper NPT be suitable? Or should I pick up some scrap & dig up those old brazing skills I had once? use the stainless flanges. you can braze them to copper with no problem. heck you can even braze the ss flanges to your keg. if you can weld them to the keg that's better though. good questions. you're gonna get a ton of different respnses. my keg is the first one in my link. you cant see the dump valve by the pick though. i made the mistake of not flipping it and had to addit later.


Sorry for the rambling but its one of those evenings I cant sleep & should be.
one more thing you may want a fill port on the top too
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by NZChris »

jog666 wrote:While reading, Ive found that thermometers on a pot still are, at best, general reference and a parrot will do more for me
A thermometer in the boiler measuring the temperature of the charge will give you useful info once you have records to refer back to, but not for your first runs. The same goes for parrots except that they are even less necessary for making good liquor.

Have a read of Kiwistiller's guide to cuts. Doing cuts, (choosing your final blend), has little to do with still temperatures or abv at the parrot until you have good records from previous runs, so, until you have your own records to refer back to, don't make decisions based on numbers from thermometers and parrots, just record them for future reference.
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by hpby98 »

one more thing you may want a fill port on the top too

I second this. Mind got put in after One run
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by Expat »

+1 on the filling port.

On that note, you may wish to consider trimming back the keg skirt (the part with the handels) so it's easier to access to the front.
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by jog666 »

Since Im going to do some welding, 6" flange & fill port on top, that I might as well put another 2" flange on the side for a thermometer.

Got bored & drew it out.
drawing.jpg
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Expatlad, I planned on trimming the skirt on the top after seeing a few pictures & realizing it would make working around easier.
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by zapata »

Harris/Radnor stay brite series of solders and stay clean flux will work for any combination of ss and cu at a temp low enough to use a butane torch (though with 6" might want to speed that up with mapp). End result is probably stronger than a traditional high temp braze due to the lower heat not annealing the copper and much less risk of scorching the ss. For years I bemoaned not making changes to my brewing equipment because I don't weld and local work is either horrible, slow, outrageously expensive, or most likely all three! Once I discovered the right solder and flux I can't think of any good reason to weld anything anymore unless you already can and are good at it.

2" port seems way oversized for a thermometer, but if you mount it low and in the right place it'll be there when you upgrade to electric. Maybe It's my lack of experience, but I wouldn't go bottom drain with gas fire, It's not just the valve, It's the direct fire to triclamp gaskets at the drain I'd worry about.

Brewhardware.com has a line of triclamp flanges made with wide surfaces to offer a good surface solder strength. They make both flat and radius cut to fit the side of the keg which I think are the handiest brewing/stilling product I've seen in years.

They also sell self dimpling smaller fittings that are rad for smaller things, like say a 1/2" threaded coupling for a thermometer. You drill an undersized hole, and use their reasonably priced installation tool to pull the tapered fitting into place. It dimples out the sidewall as it pulls through, giving good surface area for solder and solid mechanical support.

Another option for your fill port is to do it inline. Say a 2" Tee with a 90 on the side between your reducer and column. I know I've seen a single fitting that does the same thing, but don't remember where. Either way It's one less hole to cut in your keg and one less fitting to solder/braze/weld.
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by Oldvine Zin »

ExpatLad wrote:+1 on the filling port.

On that note, you may wish to consider trimming back the keg skirt (the part with the handels) so it's easier to access to the front.
+1 on that! as far as the 2" ferule for a not needed thermo sounds like a waste to me, if you want some bling on your keg place that ferule a bit higher and use it as a sight glass.

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Re: Keg Planning

Post by cede »

Not mine, but I found it a good idea of skirt trimming.
keg-218x300.jpg
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There are more ferrules on the back for heater elements but I'd add one more for a temp probe.
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by Oldvine Zin »

cede wrote:Not mine, but I found it a good idea of skirt trimming.
keg-218x300.jpg
There are more ferrules on the back for heater elements but I'd add one more for a temp probe.
Cool nice build on that keg. Just saying that it will boil when it gets up to temp, temp probe or not :roll:

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Re: Keg Planning

Post by cede »

Found out, the keg is from emptyglass :)

The temp probe is a personal choice !
My next rig will have a few thermometers and flow sensor to record data, but I do not rely on that. It will record, but I will still be distilling with my senses :)
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by jog666 »

zapata wrote:2" port seems way oversized for a thermometer, but if you mount it low and in the right place it'll be there when you upgrade to electric. Maybe It's my lack of experience, but I wouldn't go bottom drain with gas fire, It's not just the valve, It's the direct fire to triclamp gaskets at the drain I'd worry about.

Another option for your fill port is to do it inline. Say a 2" Tee with a 90 on the side between your reducer and column. I know I've seen a single fitting that does the same thing, but don't remember where. Either way It's one less hole to cut in your keg and one less fitting to solder/braze/weld.
The flanges going directly on the keg will be welded. I want them 100% THERE and not have to think twice about them after a leak test.

The drain on the bottom, I didnt even think about the seal. The only two way I can think of to keep a drain & get rid of "burnables" down there is to weld a 90* & piece of straight down there. Then put a flange at the end for a valve/cap. The other is to put the drain in the side & low. It wont be a complete drain but get it down enough to make moving/draining easier.

The reason for a 2" flange for the thermo in the side was options down the road. Sight glass, heating element, etc....

A "Y" fitting" might be what youre thinking about. Ive seen them that are a true Y & ones with a sweeping arm. Mcmastercarr calls the "45* Tee"
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by zapata »

I know I've seen a "Y" where the side branch was a smooth sweep to end up parallel to the straight branch and seemed perfect for this application. Of course depending on how you fill, a 45* angle could be fine or even better.

I use a small (1/2") side drain, even though I'm electric so I could have (should have?) Gone bottom drain. It really isnt a hassle to me. I haven't even bothered with the pickup tube I could easily attach to drain more completely (still not fully though). But you are right, welding that bottom drain would allow for gas fire and bottom drain. That is one of the rare cases where I do actually see a benefit of welding vs. a good solder job. You'll probably want to make sure a bottom drain won't interfere with the burner though. Pretty sure I've seen bottom drains that reduce to .5 or .75 come out through the bottom skirt which I imagine wouldn't interfere much. But I can't see a full 2" bottom drain not getting in the way.

Lol, it just occurred to me that I didn't miss the boat for a bottom drain. Currently I use the stock fitting on top, have a low side 2" tc for element and a low 1/2 female thread for drain. If I flip it, I could add a larger tc for the top (hello cleaning!), put a sight glass in the now high side 2" TC, add a new element TC, and use the now high 1/2" for some sort of flash light to really appreciate the sight glass. COOL! I thought I was done with that boiler, ha!
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by Oldvine Zin »

Or just commit to an electric element from the start, more control and you can run inside. Then your drain issue is less of a problem,

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Re: Keg Planning

Post by jog666 »

Oldvine Zin wrote:Or just commit to an electric element from the start, more control and you can run inside. Then your drain issue is less of a problem,

OVZ
Right now, well for the next couple years, I dont see electric in my future. I could but it would be on the carport & thats a few feet the other side of stupid.


I am for sure going to run a big top opening, 6" or 8". Using either size I could easily weld on a pair of 2" flanges. One for the column & another for filling. Might have to get a couple 45* fittings to make it work right with a bowl inlet big enough to not make a mess.

The bottom has got me..... not confused but pulled in a few directions. I want the bottom drain but run into one issue or another. Gaskets are simple, get rid of them all together & weld a 90* to the bottom. Then comes the heater, right now it will be propane. Turkey fryers & the parts can be had locally & online but with the drain in the bottom, the only thing I can see working is a homemade one from stainless tubing with holes drilled in it & bent. Then mounting tabs welded to it to go on the tabs welded to a stand or the keg which has a stand welded to it. At the same time I think it would be just as good to put a 2" flange in low on the side for electric, one day, & just use it for a drain. Then I could use off the shelf burners.

The part I find funny about this, just the planning of how to do the keg, is while Im at work welding, is when I have the most time to think about this.
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by durty_dunderpants »

the bottom drain is nice for cleaning (hosing out and drying) and back to back stripping runs, but a low side drain will drain most of the contents, and i just tip it slightly to get the rest. if i have 500ml slops in with the next strip i'm really not bothered. tipping isn't ideal but also isn't an issue as i only ever need to do it carefuly with a lightweight stripping head.
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by zapata »

A side drain can have a pickup tube going to the bottom. You'll leave like 100 ml behind. Not ideal for cleaning, but perfectly sufficient for back to back runs.

I guess the dedication to propane is that you've got an unwired barn or shed you want to run in vs the carport (good call) or inside with electric?
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by rgreen2002 »

If you are planning on heating with propane then the bottom drain probably isn't for you. It's just going to get in the way and make flame heating difficult. A low side drain like dd and zapata mentioned would be the trick.

...also consider legs or a built-in stand. I use wheels.... but I run electric
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by jog666 »

zapata wrote:A side drain can have a pickup tube going to the bottom. You'll leave like 100 ml behind. Not ideal for cleaning, but perfectly sufficient for back to back runs.

I guess the dedication to propane is that you've got an unwired barn or shed you want to run in vs the carport (good call) or inside with electric?
Yes, a very unwired barn. I have one of those harbor freight solar powered led motion lights out there so I have enough light to get around during winter while I get my feed out for the animals. Inside crossed my mind but a keg just seems to big to put up inside & run. Honestly I would love to run it on natural gas since its so cheap here but that opens up more headaches than running electric to the barn. The cooling part of the still, going to run a Liebig, isnt a big problem. Just have to buy another extension cord of bigger (awg) size. One of those items that would be a wash either way since it could/would be used for many other things. Along with the pump if need be.

rgreen2002 wrote:If you are planning on heating with propane then the bottom drain probably isn't for you. It's just going to get in the way and make flame heating difficult. A low side drain like dd and zapata mentioned would be the trick.

...also consider legs or a built-in stand. I use wheels.... but I run electric
The new girl 1.jpg
What size flanges are those?

I believe Ive finally come around to the low side/bottom drain decision. Low side would probably be best in the long run. Its not like Im going to leave a few gallons in there for a month at a time. A stand is for sure in the works. Going to be one of those where there is zero chance of it tipping unless I some how get on top of a six foot column & try to dance a jig.
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by zapata »

You joke, but read the tell us your mistakes thread, someone had a mishap and ended up wrapped around their scalding hot column like a stripper on a pole!
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by jon1163 »

viewtopic.php?f=88&t=68775

This post is my journey of building my own keg boiler and thumper. I'm immensely pleased with how it turned out but here's what I learned.

1. The Fill port on top is nice but I haven't found a use for it yet. When it was installed I just eyeballed the distance between the 6-inch port on the top and the 3-inch fill port. Once they were welded I realized that my tri clamps we're to close and they wouldn't both fit. I almost had a heart attack. I was able to grind a little bit off of the 6 inch Tri clamp and the 3-inch tri-clamp and now they fit fine but man was I sweating for a minute.

2. When I welded the tri clamp fittings on to the side of the keg the two three inch fittings Warped due to the heat. Even though I coped them a bit so that they would fit to the Contour of the keg they still warped causing the surface to not be flat. When I did my first test run vinegar leaked all over the ground. I had to spend hours and hours sanding the surface of the fittings flat.

3. a drain in the bottom of the keg is a must. Living a full keg is a bear especially when it's hot.

4. Sand the skirts... It like nice and let's you access the fittings more easily.

5. Dry fit your heating element /s before welding so that you're sure they won't touch inside the keg.

Feel free to message me with any questions.

Good luck and post photos of your build.
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by rgreen2002 »

jog666 wrote:
What size flanges are those?
Those are both 4-inch flanges. I can fit a hand and part of my arm in each port for cleaning. They fit together fine without much interference to clamps and all my 4' clamps, caps, etc... are interchangeable. My side drain is showing on the right but I do wish it was a bottom drain.

One last piece of advice: if you plan on using propane: be sure the bottom rolled edge isn't closed (drill a hole or cut a section). There have been reports of the air inside the lip exploding with propane heating when it gets superheated.
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by cede »

rgreen2002 wrote: Those are both 4-inch flanges. I can fit a hand and part of my arm in each port for cleaning. They fit together fine without much interference to clamps and all my 4' clamps, caps, etc... are interchangeable. My side drain is showing on the right but I do wish it was a bottom drain.
You could have a bended piece of tube from that side port that goes down to the bottom of the keg.
I have a piece of copper pipe like this on one of my keg that I use to heat water. It sucks all the water until air enters the tube.
Like this one, but I saw some with sanitary fitting.
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by rgreen2002 »

cede wrote: You could have a bended piece of tube from that side port that goes down to the bottom of the keg.
I have a piece of copper pipe like this on one of my keg that I use to heat water. It sucks all the water until air enters the tube.
Like this one, but I saw some with sanitary fitting.
This I like!

I actually have a 1.5" TC on the other side of the Keg I don't use anymore (I started with 2 120v elements before I went 220) maybe I could rig up a 1.5 TC dip tube or something... :think:
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by cede »

I'm sure you will find something at a brewshop online.
I saw brewershardware has one https://www.brewershardware.com/1-Tri-C ... -Tube.html
But a bit short I think.
Or you could get 2 caps, make a hole for a tube and get a tube welded thru the caps and bended to your measure. Materials cost a few dollars.
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by jog666 »

Finally got it brought around front to do some measuring.
keg1.jpeg
This is the 6 spoke reinforcement around the factory 2" Being that it is right around 7.5" wide.
keg2.jpeg
keg3.jpeg
These two show that its roughly 4" from the edge to the spokes.

keg4.jpeg
Just a reference picture of keg diameter.


Im thinking about an 8" flange with a cap that has two 2" flanges welded to it instead of a 6" & 2". The only issue I see with the 8" setup is the lack of room with a funnel (I found a big 1.5g with 2" flange already on it). The 6"/2" shouldnt be bad at all with the funnel since Im trimming the top skirt. Just move the 2" far enough down to clear. If anything, set the 2" just above where the skirt was at & get a 45* elbow or two. Also the 6" stuff is easier to find online than the 8".

Im about to go through my saved links & nail down the parts & prices.
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by cede »

Going this route, you can have several caps with different configurations :)
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by jog666 »

cede wrote:Going this route, you can have several caps with different configurations :)
Something else that cross my mind. 8)

Spent several hours last night going through links & sorting them. Was planning on making a nice spreadsheet, something I havent done in years, But my computer is such a piece of shit that I have to register just to make a spread sheet. Either way, opened word pad last light & started. Spent a few hours this morning finishing it & decided to "convert" the word pad to a picture/jpeg. Maybe help out someone else looking to compare prices.
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by bluefish_dist »

A 6" tri clamp is plenty big for anything you would want to do on a keg. I would not do an 8" as that is huge and harder to weld and keep flat. I might actually do a 6" fill/clean and a 2 or 4" for the column. That way you don't have to take it apart to clean the boiler. Also a bottom drain as its a pain to move a hot full keg. Ball valves work fine for a drain. I have them on a couple of stills.
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Re: Keg Planning

Post by Bushman »

Mash Rookie did some tests and his results were a 6" is too large for a keg boiler and shouldn't be used on anything smaller than 25-30 gallons. I think a 3-4" column is ideal for this hobby.
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