UJSM Fermentation

[TunaSquat]

Hey guys, I'm only on my fourth USJM ferment cycle but it's already slowing way down. The third ferment actually took more than three weeks, and it wasn't done when I finally couldn't take it anymore and just ran it. This time, it was bubbling great until I added the backset (~30%) and now the bubbling has almost come to a stop. Is it possible I could already be too acidotic by the fourth generation? On the second ferment I used no backset and it finished just as quickly as the first. Do I need to buy a pH tester just to see where I stand? I've not been running deep into tails on the strips, stopping around 40%. Could that be the problem? ABV too high?

Thanks.

[dieselduo]

More than likely you had a ph crash from the added backseat Try using some oyster shells to buffer if you check and it is too low

[Saltbush Bill]

Cut backset to 4-5L in a 30L wash , You shouldn't have any trouble then.

[underdog]

By the fourth one, I start adding about three eggshells. Your pH is likely a bit low.
If you can find it, pH paper is easier to use than a meter. Cheaper, too.

[TunaSquat]

Would I need to clean up those shells before throwing them in? Crush them?

[seamusm53]

Just add intact. Rinsing/cleaning the shells not necessary. Shell calcium carbonate is very available for acid neutralization and the shells need not be crushed first. But you may have to re-pitch yeast if acid killed the little beasties.

[Pikey]

Whenever I have a slow ferment, the first thing I suspect is temperature, You're not just coming into Autumn where you are, are you ?

[TunaSquat]

Whenever I have a slow ferment, the first thing I suspect is temperature, You're not just coming into Autumn where you are, are you ?

I've got an aquarium heater in the outer bucket so temps shouldn't be the issue. I did throw a bunch of egg shells in there so hopefully that'll do the trick.

[Shine0n]

Just add intact. Rinsing/cleaning the shells not necessary. Shell calcium carbonate is very available for acid neutralization and the shells need not be crushed first. But you may have to re-pitch yeast if acid killed the little beasties.

You're right about them being available for the acid but if you crack an egg and eat it then just toss in a ferment you're introducing salmonella to the wash or the possibility of it.

Use water hotter than 168°f to kill the bacteria to be on the safe side that way there is a lesser chance of poisoning.

If you have access to crushed shells you could suspend them with a strainer bag to control/buffer ph and if needed to raise, use pickling lime in a slurry as it's a very strong base.

You will need at least paper strips to check or get a cheap ph meter from amazon.

Shine0n

[Pikey]

.........You're right about them being available for the acid but if you crack an egg and eat it then just toss in a ferment you're introducing salmonella to the wash or the possibility of it...............

Think about that mate, I wouldn't want to be a salmonella bacterium, facing the prospect of having to survive life in a 10% alcohol solution, then getting boiled for 2 hours and climbing up a column at 90 dC and then having to live in a 60% alcohol solution, just so I can poison somebody !

If it's ok to chuck a load of smelly old dunder with a skin of mould and unspecified bactera in a rum ferment, I'm happy enough to ckuck unsterilised egg shells in a wash too !

Some even chuck earth from the garden in there.

I'm all for a bit of "safety" - but .....

[Saltbush Bill]

This time, it was bubbling great until I added the backset (~30%) and now the bubbling has almost come to a stop.

Lets just look at backset like the handbrake on your car, apply to much and it slows things riiiiiggggght down or stops it all together.
Not enough handbrake and it rolls off down the slope/hill way faster than you would like.
Find the correct amount that makes your ferment , ferment at the speed you would like and you wont need to bugger around with PH.

[TunaSquat]

Well when I checked it today, I'm bubbling pretty good again. Not as good as the first generation, so I'm probably still a little on theacidotic side. I'll try to collect some more egg shells while I'm waiting for my pH strips.

[seamusm53]

Oyster shells are pretty cheap and can be found as a food additive for egg-layers (chickens) at most feed stores. Just to save your heart from eating too many eggs. I just throw a small handful into the mash with each run. It'll buffer the pH from the getgo and lessen the acid build-up.

[Expat]

I threw a measure cup worth of crushed she'll into my UJSM fermenter the other day.... LOL the results were Volcanic to say the least between nucleation and reaction to the shell it was nearly a foamy flood head room for the win.

[TunaSquat]

Oyster shells are pretty cheap and can be found as a food additive for egg-layers (chickens) at most feed stores. Just to save your heart from eating too many eggs. I just throw a small handful into the mash with each run. It'll buffer the pH from the getgo and lessen the acid build-up.

I'll look for those, thanks.

[Shine0n]

Good point pikey
Sometimes people put their fingers in the wash to see if it's done and taste it, you may or may not, I do so if I forget and quite often I do I could become sick. That is the point I'm making.

I put soil, potatoes, raw grains in my muck put but I sure as hell don't dip a finger to taste

[Pikey]

Yeah, I do the "Dippy finger test" - Hmmm! If I ever get around to "Dirty dunder" - I'll bear what you said in mind - I would not have done if you hadn't mentioned that !

[TunaSquat]

Man guys, it's about a week since my last post and this same batch is still bubbling slowly. As previously stated, I did add the egg shells. I did see an increase in bubbling, but not to levels I've seen before with this wash, so I went ahead and picked up some crushed shell from the feed store and added a handful of those as well. After seeing a marginal improvement over the last several days, I decided to add some more yeast, even though the yeast should be in an environment where they can self-propagate at this point, right? I checked the SG today, it was 1.04. Ugh. It's been going for 11 days now.

I'm still waiting for my pH strips to come in. Apparently I keep choosing products on back order on Amazon.

[zapata]

It's possible the increased action you saw after starting to add shells wasn't fermentation but rather dissolved c02 off gassing. A ferment stuck at 1.040 is kind of a classic stuck fermentation. If it's not yeast, not ph (suspected though can't be sure till you get a tester), and not temp, sometimes you just have to give up.

I think there's good flavors that come from stripping deeper than 40%, running to at least 20% is the best compromise to me, but I often run even lower than that. If you're stripping in a normal pot still, at 40% you're stopping right about dead half way. You're probably leaving the backset at about 6 or even 7%. So yeah, that could be your problem. Your yeast were happy until you dumped in acidic 7% abv backset. What kind of yeast are you using btw?

11 days isn't too long, I wouldn't give up yet, but keep an eye on that SG. If it doesn't drop much, and your ph turns out to be in line, I'd maybe give it 3 weeks. Even 4 weeks of messing about with it if you're not in a hurry.

Whenever you call it, you can just start like new, but carry over maybe 1/4 of the grain bed for some continuity of flavor and limit your backset to less than 20%, after stripping it down to at least 20% abv.

[fizzix]

Hey tuna, get a hop sock to put your shells in for easy retrieval and re-use. Tie a loose knot for refilling when needed.

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[Saltbush Bill]

Man guys, it's about a week since my last post and this same batch is still bubbling slowly.

Patience is a virtue when it comes to distilling ...not sure if anyone has told you that yet. I wouldn't be going into panic mode just yet....leave it be see what happens.

I think there's good flavors that come from stripping deeper than 40%, running to at least 20% is the best compromise to me, but I often run even lower than that. If you're stripping in a normal pot still, at 40% you're stopping right about dead half way. You're probably leaving the backset at about 6 or even 7%. So yeah, that could be your problem.

[TunaSquat]

It's possible the increased action you saw after starting to add shells wasn't fermentation but rather dissolved c02 off gassing. A ferment stuck at 1.040 is kind of a classic stuck fermentation. If it's not yeast, not ph (suspected though can't be sure till you get a tester), and not temp, sometimes you just have to give up.

I think there's good flavors that come from stripping deeper than 40%, running to at least 20% is the best compromise to me, but I often run even lower than that. If you're stripping in a normal pot still, at 40% you're stopping right about dead half way. You're probably leaving the backset at about 6 or even 7%. So yeah, that could be your problem. Your yeast were happy until you dumped in acidic 7% abv backset. What kind of yeast are you using btw?

11 days isn't too long, I wouldn't give up yet, but keep an eye on that SG. If it doesn't drop much, and your ph turns out to be in line, I'd maybe give it 3 weeks. Even 4 weeks of messing about with it if you're not in a hurry.

Whenever you call it, you can just start like new, but carry over maybe 1/4 of the grain bed for some continuity of flavor and limit your backset to less than 20%, after stripping it down to at least 20% abv.

Great info, thanks for the detailed response. I am shutting down early, just after detecting tails, and yes, in an effort to recoup some of the alcohol left in the backset, I probably added too much back. Tasting the wash now, I don't think ABV is high enough to cause yeast lysis, but is it possible it's high enough to inhibit propagation, so that the amount of yeast working isn't increasing at this point? The wash is still bubbling, but not at the rate I would expect 20+ gallons of wash to bubble.

Thanks guys.

[TunaSquat]

Man guys, it's about a week since my last post and this same batch is still bubbling slowly.

Patience is a virtue when it comes to distilling ...not sure if anyone has told you that yet. I wouldn't be going into panic mode just yet....leave it be see what happens..

[/quote]

It is indeed. While I do get impatient, I appreciate that producing a decent bottle of whiskey takes some persistence. It's what makes this hobby so rewarding.

[zapata]

I am shutting down early, just after detecting tails,

No need for that. I can detect some small amount of tails throughout most of a stripping run. That's why you do a spirit run. Theres way too much flavor and alcohol at that point to make a cut based on a slight bit of tails.

It's an over simplification, but think of it this way. The disagreeable tails notes you are finding at 40% abv during the stripping run will come over at about 40% abv on the spirit run. But by that point you will for sure have collected all your yummy hearts. Those tails coming over at 40% won't be anywhere near your spirit run hearts which come over between about 80% and 70%.

[butterpants]

My 20 gallon UJSSM ferment starts at 1.075 and gets to 0.996 in 3 days at 75F. It's tempeature controlled (Jaybird + Brewbelts + Refletix, in a cold garage) and allowed to freerise as much as it likes (Usually hits 82 F about 24 hours in).

The only time it smells stressed (sulfur) is when I'm a dumb ass and put in too much backset. I find that ferments when proceeding along as they should, have a characteristic odor.... when it doesn't smell happy, something is awry.

I think you can test UJSSM pH with cheap strips. No need for an expensive meter. I have one and still use strips for UJ. Get the ones with a small window of 3-5 pH. When it heads south of the color designated by 3.5 or stalls in gravity drop, add chalk (Calcium Carbonate). Mine rarely stalls but I check pH on day 3 religiously. I just leave a triple scale floating hydrometer in the fermenter during the run. Makes checks quick. and easy. Give it spin before reading it.

I also augment my UJ with nutrients.... almost as if it's a pure sugar wash. Why you ask? Because it makes the ferment healthier, faster and smell better. I think this positively affects my final cut yields by less production of unwanted flavor compounds. I add initially with my new batch of sugar all at once:

Gypsum
Epsom Salts
DAP
Fermaid K
Crushed B complex vitamin

The yeast I'm currently using is Fermentis Safesprit GR-2. Got some from a friend who wasn't using it. I'll probably switch to USW-6 next time....see if I get more grain character. GR-2 is fairly neutral for me, even coming off a 2x pot still. I tend to not alter variables until I've got 5 gallons of finished product. Seems like a bunch but I give most of it away.

Hope this helps. I'm rambling...

[butterpants]

I'm going to go on record saying that a fermentation taking longer than a week is flawed and one taking a month is a train wreck... unless of course it's some hybrid lacto/brett deal or you're making kimchi.

Sacchromyces fermenting simple sugar in a liquid vehicle with a reasonable gravity (under 1.100), reasonable temperature (70-80F), reasonable pitch rate 1 million cells/mL/degree P, reasonable amount of FAN and micronutrients (totally wort dependant) and a reasonable pH (3.5-5) should finish in less than 7 days regardless of volume.

If yours isn't, one of these parameters is out of spec.

[TunaSquat]

I'm going to go on record saying that a fermentation taking longer than a week is flawed and one taking a month is a train wreck... unless of course it's some hybrid lacto/brett deal or you're making kimchi.

Sacchromyces fermenting simple sugar in a liquid vehicle with a reasonable gravity (under 1.100), reasonable temperature (70-80F), reasonable pitch rate 1 million cells/mL/degree P, reasonable amount of FAN and micronutrients (totally wort dependant) and a reasonable pH (3.5-5) should finish in less than 7 days regardless of volume.

If yours isn't, one of these parameters is out of spec.

Alright, I finally got my pH paper. I would estimate my current pH is between 4-4.5. That's after adding the egg shells and crushed chicken shells last week. It's still bubbling but when I checked the SG it's now only slightly less than the 1.04 it was days ago. I did add more crushed shell but is the damage already done? I'm guessing the pH must have been pretty low prior to the buffer additions. Should I just run this and start over. I hate to lose this batch. This is supposedly when UJSM just starts getting good.

Thanks

[Expat]

Sounds like you did have a PH crash. Shell is pretty slow to react so it's best to add it at the beginning keep things comfortable.

In my experience and reading, ferments tend to be slow after a PH issue, but they do finish, so be patient and let it finish, restart your next generation as normal.

[HDNB]

go back to the root cause of the stall. from all the descriptions (save the estimate of 4+ on PH), it sounds like bacterial stall.

acetic acid in small doses is toxic to yeast. lots of bacteria produce it. the high dose of backset may have slowed the yeast and allowed the bacteria to over run the ferment.

i'd bet with a meter your ph is 3.3 to 3.5. anything less than 3.8 indicates an acid forming infection to me. i run hot and dirty all the time and have stalled more mashes than i care to recall.

my suggestion? what i did... toss it all clean the hell out of everything and start again. you gotta really try to stall a UJSSM, that big dose of backset will do it everytime. no more than 10% volume if you want to stay safe.

practice clean fermenting and you won't lose as many.

ps: are the slow bubbles nice and big?

[TunaSquat]

go back to the root cause of the stall. from all the descriptions (save the estimate of 4+ on PH), it sounds like bacterial stall.

acetic acid in small doses is toxic to yeast. lots of bacteria produce it. the high dose of backset may have slowed the yeast and allowed the bacteria to over run the ferment.

i'd bet with a meter your ph is 3.3 to 3.5. anything less than 3.8 indicates an acid forming infection to me. i run hot and dirty all the time and have stalled more mashes than i care to recall.

my suggestion? what i did... toss it all clean the hell out of everything and start again. you gotta really try to stall a UJSSM, that big dose of backset will do it everytime. no more than 10% volume if you want to stay safe.

practice clean fermenting and you won't lose as many.

ps: are the slow bubbles nice and big?

pH is slightly higher today. SG is 1.034, so a little better there as well. Bubbling has increased, but I would describe them as small not large bubbles. The wash certainly isn't at a boil. Is there a way I could tell if my wash was infected? Possibly by smell or taste?)