Another Rookie Mistake
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Another Rookie Mistake
Oh man, I may just be sick. I think I have unintentionally violated one or more of the “Rules We Live By” and lost a significant investment. As a few of you know, I am a rookie, and I’m starting to wonder when the completely brain dead mistakes end! Hopefully I can get a little direction.
I did a 40 gal Pintoshine, all Molly, wash which yielded 9 gal of 40 pct low wines. I was feeling pretty good. Did my spirit run with an extra gal of feints from the previous run and got a total 16 qt jars averaging 92 pct. this was the best run I’ve had in a year and a half of trying and the hearts were by far the best I have ever produced. I was “pumped” as Flo would say. So I put the coffee filters on the qts jars and planned to let them sit for 48 hrs before determining the cuts and making the final blend to go on oak. After 24 hrs of breathing, I got called out of town on business. I wrestled with what to do and since I didn’t know exactly when I’d get back, I decided not to leave it airing on coffee filters for up to 4 days and instead put the lids on. BIG F@@@ING MISTAKE!
I got back home Friday just long enough to pack for the scheduled weekend trip and grabbed one of those sweet smelling and tasting heart jars to check it. OMG, it smelled like someone had poured mineral spirits and chemical lab waste into it. I couldn’t believe what had happened in two days. All I could do was seal it back up and jump in the car with the wife and hit the road.
I’ve had a little time this morning to do some searches here and realize now that I should have just left it on coffee filters and gladly given the Angels their share. Based on what I’ve read so far, I may have just lost the whole f@@@ing run. Someone posted a similar experience and said they ran it back through their Boka 4 times and never got the chemicals out. It makes total sense, 92 pct alcohol is a powerful solvent.
I’ll be back home tomorrow afternoon and plan to immediately put the coffee filters back on. On man, I just want to puke. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might salvage this mess?
And to all other rookies out there, these guys know what the hell they are talking about. Do not mix your good product with plastics, rubber, or any other man made polymer unless you truly know what the hell you’re doing. In one of the many posts I read today, someone said to just turn the Mason/Ball jar lid insert over to keep the rubber seal away from your product. I don’t have any data to support this opinion (which I know “triggers” some of you folks), but, if you look at the back side of a jar lid insert, there is printing and some sort of finish applied. This can’t be a good vapor barrier for 92 pct distillate. My new rule is: do not use stock jar lids on anything you or anyone you love may consume!
I’ve probably lost countless hours, energy, water, and dollars potentially ruining what would have been my best run yet. I don’t want anybody else to make the same mistake. Please pay better attention than I did.
I did a 40 gal Pintoshine, all Molly, wash which yielded 9 gal of 40 pct low wines. I was feeling pretty good. Did my spirit run with an extra gal of feints from the previous run and got a total 16 qt jars averaging 92 pct. this was the best run I’ve had in a year and a half of trying and the hearts were by far the best I have ever produced. I was “pumped” as Flo would say. So I put the coffee filters on the qts jars and planned to let them sit for 48 hrs before determining the cuts and making the final blend to go on oak. After 24 hrs of breathing, I got called out of town on business. I wrestled with what to do and since I didn’t know exactly when I’d get back, I decided not to leave it airing on coffee filters for up to 4 days and instead put the lids on. BIG F@@@ING MISTAKE!
I got back home Friday just long enough to pack for the scheduled weekend trip and grabbed one of those sweet smelling and tasting heart jars to check it. OMG, it smelled like someone had poured mineral spirits and chemical lab waste into it. I couldn’t believe what had happened in two days. All I could do was seal it back up and jump in the car with the wife and hit the road.
I’ve had a little time this morning to do some searches here and realize now that I should have just left it on coffee filters and gladly given the Angels their share. Based on what I’ve read so far, I may have just lost the whole f@@@ing run. Someone posted a similar experience and said they ran it back through their Boka 4 times and never got the chemicals out. It makes total sense, 92 pct alcohol is a powerful solvent.
I’ll be back home tomorrow afternoon and plan to immediately put the coffee filters back on. On man, I just want to puke. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might salvage this mess?
And to all other rookies out there, these guys know what the hell they are talking about. Do not mix your good product with plastics, rubber, or any other man made polymer unless you truly know what the hell you’re doing. In one of the many posts I read today, someone said to just turn the Mason/Ball jar lid insert over to keep the rubber seal away from your product. I don’t have any data to support this opinion (which I know “triggers” some of you folks), but, if you look at the back side of a jar lid insert, there is printing and some sort of finish applied. This can’t be a good vapor barrier for 92 pct distillate. My new rule is: do not use stock jar lids on anything you or anyone you love may consume!
I’ve probably lost countless hours, energy, water, and dollars potentially ruining what would have been my best run yet. I don’t want anybody else to make the same mistake. Please pay better attention than I did.
- still_stirrin
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Re: Another Rookie Mistake
You stored your product in glass jars, didn’t you? Don’t panic, it’ll be OK.
When you get back home, do the “airing” then...24-36 hours should be OK. If there are off flavors (still) in the product, then you can dilute and rerun it. But airing it will help a lot. Another thing too, aging on oak will help soften the “hot nose” and “bite”. Again, time helps the process.
Don’t panic. It’ll turn out OK.
ss
When you get back home, do the “airing” then...24-36 hours should be OK. If there are off flavors (still) in the product, then you can dilute and rerun it. But airing it will help a lot. Another thing too, aging on oak will help soften the “hot nose” and “bite”. Again, time helps the process.
Don’t panic. It’ll turn out OK.
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
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My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
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Re: Another Rookie Mistake
I am in agreement with you, that in the moment, it is very anger-some..
Mars
There is always a cost to learning, and there is no exception.. you need to look at it from a different angle, what you have experience, has now been learned.. sometimes the cost to learning is small, sometimes not.. it just is that way..GCB3 wrote:I’ve probably lost countless hours, energy, water, and dollars potentially ruining what would have been my best run yet.
Someone else will do the same in the future, just as you have, that's called being human.. one can do all the reading in the world, but, if it is not comprehended.. nothing has been learned until experienced..GCB3 wrote:I don’t want anybody else to make the same mistake.
Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
– Albert Einstein
– Albert Einstein
Re: Another Rookie Mistake
I believe as long as you didn't have the jars laying on the sides for the rubber seal to come into contact i believe you'll be fine.
SS said it best, air out for another few days and see what you have, bet it's ok!
SS said it best, air out for another few days and see what you have, bet it's ok!
- Swedish Pride
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Re: Another Rookie Mistake
also, airing for 5 days isnt a biggie, just keep them in a cool place out of the sun and you'll be fine
Don't be a dick
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Re: Another Rookie Mistake
No advice here as I am just beginging...But you helped me learn from your mistake and sharing. Thanks
Re: Another Rookie Mistake
Well, thanks to all of you. I feel a lot better today than I did yesterday. Back to airing tonight. I really hope I can salvage this run.
And I thought golf had too many variables!
I am glad my experience has helped you. There are some here who believe the lid liners are OK at the 40-50% level. I’m not convinced I want any product in contact with the rubber gaskets or the white liner material. I am going to look back into the archives and learn some more about oak inserts. Not for the aging qualities but for providing a non-plastic seal (that may assit in air transfer).WithOrWithoutU2 wrote:No advice here as I am just beginging...But you helped me learn from your mistake and sharing. Thanks
And I thought golf had too many variables!
Re: Another Rookie Mistake
I was apprehensive to chime in, but glad to see my advice would've been similar to what you received.
Didn't want to "out" myself don't ya know.
My 85% neutral sat in gallon Rossi glass wine jugs. It all went in with no odor, but a month later HOO-WEE it had a stank I attributed to the (no contact) lid material.
24-hours in open canning jars resolves that stench when I go to make a gin or Pertsovka.
The gin just got a thumbs up from the snobbiest McSnob in our group, so don't sweat it.
Didn't want to "out" myself don't ya know.
My 85% neutral sat in gallon Rossi glass wine jugs. It all went in with no odor, but a month later HOO-WEE it had a stank I attributed to the (no contact) lid material.
24-hours in open canning jars resolves that stench when I go to make a gin or Pertsovka.
The gin just got a thumbs up from the snobbiest McSnob in our group, so don't sweat it.
Re: Another Rookie Mistake
Hey fizzix. Thanks for adding your experience. I’ll report back in a few days.
- Truckinbutch
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Re: Another Rookie Mistake
My opinion is that what you got after several days being sealed up was all that nasty shit gathering at the top that would have aired off had you had the time to follow your protocol .
Personally , I would have collected in half pint or pint jars on a spirit run . Quarts is a pretty large stretch for a novice distiller . Just opinion on my part . No rocks thrown .
Air it , blend it , and if it still tastes bad ; run it again using smaller cuts . It's a sin to wast likker .
Personally , I would have collected in half pint or pint jars on a spirit run . Quarts is a pretty large stretch for a novice distiller . Just opinion on my part . No rocks thrown .
Air it , blend it , and if it still tastes bad ; run it again using smaller cuts . It's a sin to wast likker .
If you ain't the lead dog in the team , the scenery never changes . Ga Flatwoods made my avatar and I want to thank him for that .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Re: Another Rookie Mistake
Thanks Truck, no rocks noticed. I’m not all that experienced, so smaller cuts would probably make the blending easier.
Good advice and “I ain’t no sinner, but, I ain’t no saint!”.
Good advice and “I ain’t no sinner, but, I ain’t no saint!”.
- Truckinbutch
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Re: Another Rookie Mistake
That rope will loop a lot of us .GCB3 wrote:Thanks Truck, no rocks noticed. I’m not all that experienced, so smaller cuts would probably make the blending easier.
Good advice and “I ain’t no sinner, but, I ain’t no saint!”.
When in doubt , RUN IT ! You can always dump a shit run after all efforts to salvage it fail . AA is for quitters . We keep on keeping on .
If you ain't the lead dog in the team , the scenery never changes . Ga Flatwoods made my avatar and I want to thank him for that .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Re: Another Rookie Mistake
We talk here as if airing out the cuts was necessary. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think airing out is part of commercial whiskey manufacturing - the distillate goes immediately into storage and eventually into oak. Nothing is chemically added to our cuts by failing to air them out immediately and I suspect whether airing is done later or from within a barrel it all ends up the same. Thank goodness you didn't dump everything out because even if you end up unhappy with your product just lump it together with feints and redistill it.
Re: Another Rookie Mistake
Airing is a home distilln Technic not a industry standard. Is happily practiced here.
- Truckinbutch
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Re: Another Rookie Mistake
We hold ourselves to a higher standard as home distiller craftsmen/women .seamusm53 wrote:We talk here as if airing out the cuts was necessary. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think airing out is part of commercial whiskey manufacturing - the distillate goes immediately into storage and eventually into oak. Nothing is chemically added to our cuts by failing to air them out immediately and I suspect whether airing is done later or from within a barrel it all ends up the same. Thank goodness you didn't dump everything out because even if you end up unhappy with your product just lump it together with feints and redistill it.
That is why our products will get you pleasantly whaggled without an attendant hangover the next day . If you wish to use commercial criteria as a standard then you have missed the message posted here .
If you ain't the lead dog in the team , the scenery never changes . Ga Flatwoods made my avatar and I want to thank him for that .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Re: Another Rookie Mistake
The Baker wrote:Wrap or cover any rubber seals with plumber's tape.
Geoff
Or get sheets of thin Teflon and cut your own, or get Teflon pre cut discs that match your jar size
I have a link to them somewhere but can’t find. Like 5¢ a piece iirc
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Re: Another Rookie Mistake
I hope you find the link for the teflon discs; or sheets....hpby98 wrote:The Baker wrote:Wrap or cover any rubber seals with plumber's tape.
Geoff
Or get sheets of thin Teflon and cut your own, or get Teflon pre cut discs that match your jar size
I have a link to them somewhere but can’t find. Like 5¢ a piece iirc
If you can get them in NZ I probably can in Australia too.
Geoff
The Baker
Re: Another Rookie Mistake
I believe this may be the link you are looking for: https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item. ... &catid=720" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Teflon is used for many food and high temperature applications, but, has it “passed” our Rules That We Live By standard of being proven safe with high ABV distilate?
Teflon is used for many food and high temperature applications, but, has it “passed” our Rules That We Live By standard of being proven safe with high ABV distilate?
Re: Another Rookie Mistake
Please disregard my last reply. I believe it violates the Rules By Which We Live itself!
Re: Another Rookie Mistake
Check these out.
Find the corresponding lid width, and you're good to go.
Find the corresponding lid width, and you're good to go.
Re: Another Rookie Mistake
Teflon is the allowable synthetic, good stuff, specifically ok in the rules. Us plastics is a good company too, though I don't think they'll be the best bet for Geoff. Maybe there's an AUPlastics?
Off the cuff here, but GC, I don't think your smelling the lid material. I think truckin is right, it's just that instead of airing, you caught that stuff in the headspace, and took a big ol whiff of it. That and rum changes, a lot, often quickly.
It's your call if you're scared of possible plastic contamination, but I don't think that would "OMG, it smelled like someone had poured mineral spirits and chemical lab waste into it." That sounds like acetaldehyde and ethyl acetate and friends collecting in the headspace. I'd give it some air and revisit. I bet all is irie. Which tbh is also another rookie habit, freaking out over stuff that turns out fine at least I hope it will, good luck.
Off the cuff here, but GC, I don't think your smelling the lid material. I think truckin is right, it's just that instead of airing, you caught that stuff in the headspace, and took a big ol whiff of it. That and rum changes, a lot, often quickly.
It's your call if you're scared of possible plastic contamination, but I don't think that would "OMG, it smelled like someone had poured mineral spirits and chemical lab waste into it." That sounds like acetaldehyde and ethyl acetate and friends collecting in the headspace. I'd give it some air and revisit. I bet all is irie. Which tbh is also another rookie habit, freaking out over stuff that turns out fine at least I hope it will, good luck.
Re: Another Rookie Mistake
Zapata, I think you and the others may be right. Although they did get 24 hrs of airing before I closed them up, apparently they weren’t through breathing. I left the jars completely open for another 24 hrs and the odor is greatly reduced. There is a sharp flavor that I don’t think was there right off the drop, but, I’ve seen that happen too. The Angels weren’t too hard on me either.
Unfortunately, I’m back on the road today and won’t be back till Sunday night. I left them to breath with two layers of coffee filters. Hopefully they’ll be ready for cutting and blending next week. I appreciate everyone’s input here. I was about ready to turn it into solvent!
Unfortunately, I’m back on the road today and won’t be back till Sunday night. I left them to breath with two layers of coffee filters. Hopefully they’ll be ready for cutting and blending next week. I appreciate everyone’s input here. I was about ready to turn it into solvent!
Re: Another Rookie Mistake
Right or wrong, I’ve ordered PTFE jar inserts and SS rings for my mason jars. I only use these for collecting drops. Just don’t want to get caught in another time squeeze like I’m in now. Deeper into the “Vortex” I go..................
Re: Another Rookie Mistake
Oh it get pretty deep too! lol
Glad you didn't start to wash your windows with it although they would've been cleaner than ever before
Glad you didn't start to wash your windows with it although they would've been cleaner than ever before
Re: Another Rookie Mistake
I think ya hit the nail on the head here TB. Lately I've been capping my jars as they come off the still and doing my airing and cuts after a week or 2. I've never had a problem doing this for the last 12-18 monthsTruckinbutch wrote:My opinion is that what you got after several days being sealed up was all that nasty shit gathering at the top that would have aired off had you had the time to follow your protocol .
Swedish Pride wrote:
get a brix reading on said ball bearings and then you can find out how much fermentables are in there
get a brix reading on said ball bearings and then you can find out how much fermentables are in there
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Re: Another Rookie Mistake
Antler 24 said,'Lately I've been capping my jars as they come off the still and doing my airing and cuts after a week or 2....'
Dunno. I have been distilling old and rejected wine into brandy; and putting the feints, the jars that did not make the cut, into the NEXT spirit run. Maybe the feints would be a bit softer, less sharp, (and so would be the actual brandy) if I kept the jars for a week with the lid on the same as you. So:
If I do several stripping runs; then a spirit run; gently sniff the jars and put those I can be SURE are feints, that is the first and last maybe one or two, into the feints container;
close the jars and the feints container for a week; open feints and jars for few days and make the cuts and add the new feints to the container and put the good stuff aside...
Then do the whole thing again but put the feints MAYBE into the first STRIPPING run?? (would that be better??)
Geoff
Dunno. I have been distilling old and rejected wine into brandy; and putting the feints, the jars that did not make the cut, into the NEXT spirit run. Maybe the feints would be a bit softer, less sharp, (and so would be the actual brandy) if I kept the jars for a week with the lid on the same as you. So:
If I do several stripping runs; then a spirit run; gently sniff the jars and put those I can be SURE are feints, that is the first and last maybe one or two, into the feints container;
close the jars and the feints container for a week; open feints and jars for few days and make the cuts and add the new feints to the container and put the good stuff aside...
Then do the whole thing again but put the feints MAYBE into the first STRIPPING run?? (would that be better??)
Geoff
The Baker
- Truckinbutch
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Re: Another Rookie Mistake
I don't want to jack this thread but I think it needs to be said and taken in proper context .Antler24 wrote:I think ya hit the nail on the head here TB. Lately I've been capping my jars as they come off the still and doing my airing and cuts after a week or 2. I've never had a problem doing this for the last 12-18 monthsTruckinbutch wrote:My opinion is that what you got after several days being sealed up was all that nasty shit gathering at the top that would have aired off had you had the time to follow your protocol .
I do my 20-24 gallon strip runs into carboys stoppered with twisted t-shirt rags . 3 gallons or so in each one .
Haven't noticed a lot of volume loss after , sometimes , 4 weeks before I get back to them for a spirit run .
What I have noticed is that a lot of the shit I don't want has wicked out through that rag plug and I got a lot more keepin likker when I do a spirit run .
Food for thought .....
If you ain't the lead dog in the team , the scenery never changes . Ga Flatwoods made my avatar and I want to thank him for that .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Re: Another Rookie Mistake
I finally got back to my “breathing” jars after 10 days. I am really happy to report (as I should have ‘nown) that all of you guys were right! All of those nasty odors are gone along with the nasty, hot bite that was there. I’m back to the best product I’ve made to date. It’s diluted to 65 % and on oak for as long as I can stand it. No nuking for me this time. Oak and time.
I got my shipment of SS mason jar rings, PTFE jar lid inserts and liners for the gallon jug caps. They seal up great with no leaks. Also got PTFE seals for the tri-clamps for my column sections. Rick, at Brewhaus, does not recommend them. He has concerns over their stiffness and possible vapor leaks (safety). I’m going to do a steam run to test. Anybody have any experience with these?
If I can find a replacement for the silicone seal they use at the kettle head, I’ll be 100 % plastic free (except PTFE).
Thanks to all for getting me through this.
I got my shipment of SS mason jar rings, PTFE jar lid inserts and liners for the gallon jug caps. They seal up great with no leaks. Also got PTFE seals for the tri-clamps for my column sections. Rick, at Brewhaus, does not recommend them. He has concerns over their stiffness and possible vapor leaks (safety). I’m going to do a steam run to test. Anybody have any experience with these?
If I can find a replacement for the silicone seal they use at the kettle head, I’ll be 100 % plastic free (except PTFE).
Thanks to all for getting me through this.
Re: Another Rookie Mistake
ptfe works fine in a triclamp. takes a bit more pressure on the nut than silicone, and I've made a habit of giving them a little extra torque after up to temperature. So I guess Rick isn't wrong, they take a bit more effort, but really, if anything it's just an extra twist after heatup.
And congrats!
And congrats!