Sugar wash yeast help!

[Jeffp60]

7# of sugar in 5gal water, sg 1.060. used pump and airstone. Temp is 80° , champagne yeast. 24hrs nothing. Added coopers ale yeast,24 hrs nothing. Just did a starter with bakers. Seems like they start then stop. Many beer worts and a few mashes under my belt,never had this before.
Using walmarts great value cane sugar( as opposed to "real sugar" label).
Same water/process as friend that has done several.
Any ideas? 3 dead yeasts? Dead sugar????.

[zed255]

Look at the Tried and True recipe section.

Glaringly obvious issue is that you have not actually fed your yeast anything. They don't actually 'eat' sugar, but rather break up sugar to access oxygen during the anaerobic phase of fermentation. Even some tomato paste is something for the yeast to actually use (look for Birdwatcher's tomato paste wash).

Water, yeast and sugar alone will give you nothing (or very close to nothing).

[Pikey]

Acid ?
Yeast Nutrient ?
Oxygenation ? {edit - oh ok - airstone}

squeeze a couple of lemons in there - that may help get you started. {edit - make that 5 for 5 gallons - or whatever citrus you have, citric acid in lieu}

[Jeffp60]

Been there done that. Simple sugar wash. Not stuck,never starts.
Yeast use sugar and oxygen for energy before multiplying, then fermentation begins.

[zed255]

Ok, I defer to your expertise in zymurgy.

[Pikey]

OK so what Acid, ?
and what nutrient?

- DID YOU Use ?

[Antler24]

Been there done that. Simple sugar wash. Not stuck,never starts.
Yeast use sugar and oxygen for energy before multiplying, then fermentation begins.

Why are you asking questions if you know everything?

Your original post says "seems like fermentation starts but then stop", but you also says "not stuck, never start. So, which is it son?

There is no such thing as dead sugar. Your yeast have no nutrients for one thing. Your water might be crap for another thing.

[still_stirrin]

7# of sugar in 5gal water, sg 1.060. used pump and airstone. Temp is 80° , champagne yeast. 24hrs nothing. <— this looks OK...

Added coopers ale yeast,24 hrs nothing....Just did a starter with bakers....never had this before. <— OK, not likely you’d have 3 different yeast strains all dead at the same time...

Using walmarts great value cane sugar( as opposed to "real sugar" label)....Any ideas? 3 dead yeasts? Dead sugar????.

Well, I don’t know what to say here, unless there are conditions which you haven’t disclosed. Possibly has someone added something to the ferment which might have steralized it?

Chlorine perhaps? It doesn’t take much in the fermenter to completely kill yeast...just a little puddle or spoonful or two.

There are phosphoric sanitizers which are not harmful to the yeast, in fact they’re actually nutritious. Also, iodophor is not as detrimental to the yeast if diluted. And there are “no rinse” sanitizers too, such as StarSan and such.

We’re kind of “grasping at straws” here. Let us know.
ss

[Pikey]

............We’re kind of “grasping at straws” here. Let us know.
ss

I don't think we are - Yeast needs a nice acid medium to grow in - and lemon juice has also a little organic matter for trace nutrients.

Others have suggested tomato paste for nutrient - I just use proprietary, but I do know when you do a yeast starter - you have to add acid and nutrient !

(Personally I don't see the point of making flavourless booze - but apparently some do )

Sadly, we have an appeal for "Help !" (not even a "Please" ) - Then when we make suggestions we get a "Been there done that...."

I can quite see why " zed " has cleared off in a huff !

[Jeffp60]

Ok, been there done that is i have read and re read and/or i already know/discarded it or tried that. Millions have done just sugar and yeast. Not fighting high alcohol here. I'm talking yeast dissolves, a few bubbles and nothing more.
Best answer i think is possible chlorine. Maybe it hadn't cleared out completely but i usually set out for 4 days and no problems. Thanx for ideas tho.
This is for sacrificial run
Still stirrin, i use star stan. But i still rinse.

[Pikey]

Ok, been there done that is i have read and re read and/or i already know/discarded it or tried that. Millions have done just sugar and yeast. Not fighting high alcohol here. I'm talking yeast dissolves, a few bubbles and nothing more.
Best answer i think is possible chlorine. Maybe it hadn't cleared out completely but i usually set out for 4 days and no problems. Thanx for ideas tho.
This is for sacrificial run
Still stirrin, i use star stan. But i still rinse.

Ok one last try before I give up on you !

"... Millions have done just sugar and yeast...."

NO THEY HAVE NOT !

To do that you use "Turbo Yeast" - Turbo Yeast has the acids and nutrients already in with all the other crud !

Sugar, water and yeast - will NOT work !

[still_stirrin]

...i use star stan. But i still rinse.

OK. StarSan is iodine in a phosphoric acid, so it really doesn't require rinsing...just draining. I have hundreds of ferments where I just tipped the fermenter and drained the StarSan before filling again with fermentable beer wort...and I've never had the yeast just up and die. So, I've got to say, that the sanitizer probably is not the problem. But something is killing your yeast.

And while others here claim that you MUST have nutrients to ferment sugar...I disagree...as I have fermented a simple sugar wash multiple times. Of course, proper nutrients do help the process...but yeast will consume simple sugar washes (eventually).

If you'd only tried one yeast strain, then I'd think it could have been outdated and past its prime. But you tried two other yeast starters, both which were active when added to the fermenter. Something killed them...and I doubt it was from the lack of nutrients.

Chlorine is a common suspicion...and it doesn't take much.

Even lack of oxygen would not up and kill a ferment...sure, it may go off slowly and terminate prematurely. But it wouldn't simply stop within 24 hours.

Pitching into a much too much sugar wash, i.e. - with and OG of 1.120 or higher could kill yeast too...simply because of the osmotic pressure on the yeast cell's membranes. They'd simply implode from the high gravity external forces on the cell structure. But your OG was 1.060, well below the dangerous level.

Something happened...I don't know what. But it is unnatural to the process. I don't see glaringly obvious errors in your recipe or process that should have caused this problem, especially in light of your pitching two other yeast starters with the same reaction.

If you like to gamble, perhaps you can brew yet another batch and dilute the "no go" ferment with it, and see if something will start. It could work...or you could have twice as much to dump down the drain. Your "dice to roll"....

[Pikey]

Ok - I Give up !




You sort him out SS - if you can !

I am done here !

[still_stirrin]

Ok - I Give up !...You sort him out SS - if you can !..

I don't have any better answers really. Just "grasping at straws", as I already said.

But here's something to consider....dead yeast cells are a great source of vitamin B, a much needed yeast nutrient. If the OP had pitched adequate yeast starters 3 times already (and the yeast died) don't you think he has already pitched some nutrients into the ferment? I do. So, I cannot believe that it is the cause of the continued still ferment. Something is absolutely killing the yeast, and it's not pH or lack of oxygen, or likely lack of nutrients. It is like there is something toxic in the ferment...and it is NOT the OG either.

The OP says the pitching temperature was 80*....was that *F or *C???

What could it be??? What hasn't been disclosed?

[Pikey]

Ok - I Give up !...You sort him out SS - if you can !..

I don't have any better answers really. Just "grasping at straws", as I already said.

But here's something to consider....dead yeast cells are a great source of vitamin B, a much needed yeast nutrient. If the OP had pitched adequate yeast starters 3 times already (and the yeast died) don't you think he has already pitched some nutrients into the ferment? I do. So, I cannot believe that it is the cause of the continued still ferment. Something is absolutely killing the yeast, and it's not pH or lack of oxygen, or likely lack of nutrients. It is like there is something toxic in the ferment...and it is NOT the OG either.

The OP says the pitching temperature was 80*....was that *F or *C???

What could it be??? What hasn't been disclosed?

I don't think any yeast is dead enough to provide nutrients.

Add lemon juice or citric acid. [Edit - I would think that mmay be enough on it's own, it has worked for many in the past]

Add Tomato paste (so they say),
or (Bst imo) proper yeast nutrient
or Plant food 2 tsp - such as phostrogen or Miracle grow.

IF that fails, we can look at something else.

But it won't ! Imho

[Edit - You do raise a valid point mate - I expect OP is keeping his temperature at the 80 dF range ? - if he is letting it drop much, that will stop the cheap yeasts, though EC1118 should be able to plough it's way through most reasonable temps ]

[Jeffp60]

Thank still stirrin. I'm not a complete noob fool. Been doing all grain beer for over 20 years,close to 30. I have had slow starting and stuck before,but not like this. A little fizz then nothing. A friend does EXACTLY this only(he likes white dog and lemonade.) I've done 3 ag myself that he did for me.
Dunno, i just threw in paste and 5 tbs of lemon juice. When i stirred it in,c02 fizzed up.still at 1.060 tho. see what it does.
It is strange tho. Everywhere says chlorine will mostly make it taste funny. Clawhammer,milehi and others (even on here) say sugar,water,yeast. Nutri wil give higher abv.but I'm not going for over 10%. One thing for sure. i won't be asking anything anymore.

[Antler24]

............We’re kind of “grasping at straws” here. Let us know.
ss

I don't think we are - Yeast needs a nice acid medium to grow in - and lemon juice has also a little organic matter for trace nutrients.

Others have suggested tomato paste for nutrient - I just use proprietary, but I do know when you do a yeast starter - you have to add acid and nutrient !

(Personally I don't see the point of making flavourless booze - but apparently some do )

Sadly, we have an appeal for "Help !" (not even a "Please" ) - Then when we make suggestions we get a "Been there done that...."

I can quite see why " zed " has cleared off in a huff !

Zed took off? Wtf

[shadylane]

I just threw in paste and 5 tbs of lemon juice. When i stirred it in, c02 fizzed up.still at 1.060 tho.

If it "fizzed up" it was already fermenting

[Saltbush Bill]

Jeff , one very simple question I have , what are you basing your assumption that it is not fermenting on ?

[Jeffp60]

Fizzed when i stirred it. No other outward signs at all,been 3 days. Maybe its just sugarwash character? Always had gas bubbles,krausen,something.

[Antler24]

I just threw in paste and 5 tbs of lemon juice. When i stirred it in, c02 fizzed up.still at 1.060 tho.

If it "fizzed up" it was already fermenting

He also said "seems like start then stop" and "not stuck, never starts"

[Jeffp60]

Fizzed when i stirred it. No other outward signs at all,been 3 days. Maybe its just sugarwash character? Always had gas bubbles,krausen,something.
Saltbush, no activity that i could see.

[shadylane]

I'm guessing the wash was fermenting, but slowly due to lack of nutrients

[Antler24]

I'm guessing the wash was fermenting, but slowly due to lack of nutrients

Copy that shady, that'd be my guess as well.

[Jeffp60]

Antler, i meant it starts in starter but does nothing in mash. Stuck would be started at .065 got to 45 and stopped. I have never done sugar head before. I put foaming starter in mash. 24hrs later,no krausen, no bubbbles, no drop in gravity. NOT that i would expect it.
I should have realized there is no protiens to form krausen. I still dont understand co2 staying at bottom tho.

[Saltbush Bill]

Have you tried listening to it Jeff........put your ear reaaal close to the wash surface ? It should be hissing if its fermenting.
I also hope your not relying on the fact that a airlock is not bubbling to make you assessment of the wash and if its fermenting or not.

[Jeffp60]

No saltbush.i took cover off. Normally i wouldnt even bother for 7 days. I was working ona parrot and i noticed no krausen and airlock was down.been 24hrs so i peeked.hmmm,so i repitched. No bubbles coming up after another 24. Expected bubles after 48hrs.3 days now.

[Saltbush Bill]

24hrs later,no krausen,

How you going to get a krausen from sugar and water with nothing else in it?
At least if you put some tomato paste in it you might see some pink froth.
You beer guys forget ya aint making beer here.

and airlock was down.

Had you considered that the air lock could be leaking , or the fermenter lid not sealing correctly. As I said stick your head in the fermenter and use your ears, you will hear it if its going.

[Pikey]

I'm guessing the wash was fermenting, but slowly due to lack of nutrients

Copy that shady, that'd be my guess as well.

Bit premature at the moment lads - we haven't had the "Thanks Gents - I'm up and runnin' ..." yet !

Remember the grief we had gettin' Aussibattia successful a year or so back !

[StillerBoy]

7# of sugar in 5gal water, sg 1.060. used pump and airstone. Temp is 80° , champagne yeast. 24hrs nothing. Added coopers ale yeast,24 hrs nothing. Just did a starter with bakers. Seems like they start then stop. Many beer worts and a few mashes under my belt,never had this before.
Using walmarts great value cane sugar( as opposed to "real sugar" label).
Same water/process as friend that has done several.
Any ideas? 3 dead yeasts? Dead sugar????.

I'ill throw my two cents in here..

Ok been brewing for over 20 years.. so what have you learned in yeast management??

Champagne yeast for a sugar wash started at 80*.. that is way out of its recommended pitching temp, and that applies to the cooper ale, which prefer much lower.. both these yeast take 12 to 30 hours to start fermenting.. baker's will start within a few hours..

Sugar is sugar, some are cleaner than the others, but still sugar, unless you are using sugar beet sugar, then it will not ferment.. chlorine levels in drinking water will not hinder a yeast from fermenting.. it's best if there isn't any, but it will ferment..

There is something your friend does that you are missing out on.. you are not doing the same protocol he is.. there is some small step he is not tell you or you are missing out on..

Check your protocol.. what sugar you are using, and how well was your sugar dissolved, what was the PH at pitching.. minicipal water Ph is around 7.1 even after the sugar is dissolved, and that is to neutral for a yeast environment which they prefer an acidic environment.. those are two that come mind..

Mars