Sprit run experience from today. Some observations

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basko
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Sprit run experience from today. Some observations

Post by basko »

Hey all,

First off, I want to thank everyone for such great information. I read here ALOT and post very little. I'm enjoying this hobby and getting my process down.

I made some observations during today's run that left me wondering if my still head thermometer is off (!).

This is my 8th wash. I've made birdwatchers, several sugar runs (not really drinkable), and since I've got experience with all grain beer, this wash was an all grain. I want to make something I'd be willing to share with friends.

Recipe was:
8.5 pounds flaked maize
2 pounds of malted two row barley
6.5 gallons of water
2 scoops of DADY

Boiled it up, (lots of stirring) let it cool and pitched the yeast. starting ABV 1.065, final abv of ~1.005 after about 9 days.

I have a very basic 8 gallon pot still with a 2 inch copper column and liebig condenser. It has an electric internal heating element and a rheostat controller. The still head thermometer is the dial type, and it appears to be properly located at the top of the head, level with the exit point leading to the condenser. I figured its a good starter rig.

I stripped it a few weeks ago. I use a parrot for stripping, since I don't care about smearing, and collected everything down to 20%. I ended up with just about 1 gallon of low wines at about 90 proof. Highest ABV during the strip was 70%, which I hear is about right for a still like mine.

Here's the part that leads me to some questions
Today I set up for the spirit run. I diluted it down to 30% abv and got it going. After throwing out the fores, and leveling off the rising temp, the still pretty much locked on at what the gauge said was 180 degrees. I collected in 300 ml jars and took a proof reading after each one. I noticed that I was at 80% and the still was only showing 180 degrees. I collected 1200 ml's ranging from 80% down to 65% and the gauge still hadn't reached 195 (?!) I collected tails down to about 55% just for educational purposes and maybe a feint run way down the line.

I've read Matthew Rowley's book half a dozen times and I thought I understood that the hearts didn't START until a temp of 190-ish. But also that hearts are generally the 80% to 65% abv part of the run.

So my observation was that the ABV coming off the still didn't match the temp readings. It would seem to me that the science of ABV should trump mediocre equipment.

So...experienced folks...am I understanding this situation correctly? Should I just continue to make cuts by ABV and not even worry about the temp reading?

I should add....I am getting a much better feel for what the good parts should smell/taste/burn on a spoon. I just need some hard science to back me up!

I'd love to hear your thoughts. Sorry for the long read.
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still_stirrin
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Re: Sprit run experience from today. Some observations

Post by still_stirrin »

What kind of reflux column did you use?

High purity stability is not as easily attained with CM's. LM's are very good at pushing the %ABV up, although they take a while to stabilize when doing so. And they tend to need adjusting of take of rate through the run in order to keep the proof up. VM's are very good at managing the reflux ratio and hence, the purity throughout the run because you set the ratio by the valve and let the vapor do it's thing...no adjustments necessary.
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basko
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Re: Sprit run experience from today. Some observations

Post by basko »

It's a pot still..no reflux column
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Sprit run experience from today. Some observations

Post by Saltbush Bill »

basko wrote:I have a very basic 8 gallon pot still
still_stirrin wrote:What kind of reflux column did you use?
Helps to read the quetion first.

Basco Im not in the mood at the moment for typing an essay on the evils of Newbies using thermometers on pot stills.
In short a thermometer wont help you make good cuts or make you a better distiller, only your sense of smell and taste and experience can do that .
I suggest you have a look at this recent post by another newbie. viewtopic.php?f=15&t=71295 To some extent it is relevant to your problem, he had also been reading books which lead him to believe that certain things would happen at certain temperatures, He was also a fan of the thermometer. Hopefully we have now converted him.
Last edited by Saltbush Bill on Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Twisted Brick
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Re: Sprit run experience from today. Some observations

Post by Twisted Brick »

basko wrote:
So my observation was that the ABV coming off the still didn't match the temp readings. It would seem to me that the science of ABV should trump mediocre equipment.

So...experienced folks...am I understanding this situation correctly? Should I just continue to make cuts by ABV and not even worry about the temp reading?
Since every grain bill, mash and strip run can vary, using a thermometer to identify segments of a pot-distilled spirit run is a crap shoot. Further, conditions on a spirit run can vary based on things like starting ABV, heat-up time, power application and ambient temperature. That's why so many pot distillers lose their thermometer after a few runs and you don't see them being used.

Making cuts is all about touch, taste and smell. I use a parrot to know when to stop on a strip run, but making cuts (when to change to larger jars for heads, hearts and late tails) I just use my senses. One day, I will lose the parrot altogether.
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basko
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Re: Sprit run experience from today. Some observations

Post by basko »

Twisted Brick wrote: .

That's exactly what I need to hear. thanks!
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NZChris
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Re: Sprit run experience from today. Some observations

Post by NZChris »

You can control the amount of flavor you get by how you treat the low wines. High abv + water to get rid of flavor, low abv to the point where you don't have to add water will collect more of the alcohol and flavor. E.g. for neutral I collect 40% low wines, for rum, whiskey, brandies, 35%-25% low wines. There is no need to know the abv of the product at the spout, or a temperature somewhere in the still, to get the abv you desire. All I do is keep an eye on the abv of the total collection until it reaches the point I want, then shut down, no skill required.

On the spirit run, records from your own historic runs may be useful depending on where your thermometer is placed, but temperatures from someone else's still should be disregarded, likewise, temperatures from your own still shouldn't be passed on to newbies thinking you are doing them a favor. Temperatures in the still head can impacted by a lot of variables, rendering them pretty much useless unless you can control most of them. The temperature of the charge is only affected by its own boiling point and the pressure in the pot, making it a useful tool.

Cutting 'on the fly' using temperature, abv, taste, feel, smell, etc. shouldn't be attempted until you have experience and your own records to refer back to. Instead, use something like Kiwistiller's guide to cuts to choose a blend from the collection. viewtopic.php?f=46&t=13261
basko
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Re: Sprit run experience from today. Some observations

Post by basko »

That's a great description Chris and very helpful understanding how to treat low wines. I'm a whiskey guy through and through. I'm a long way from giving anyone advice. I'm just about convinced that monitoring the temp on a pot still is pretty useless other than making sure I'm not running it too hot.

And actually, I do use Kiwistiller's guide. I collect every 250 to 300 ml in separate jars and line them up as they come off the still. That why I can taste/feel/burn at different stages in the run and look for that "yellow beard". I only kept the blue burning and good smelling stuff on this spirit run. Ended up with just under a half gallon at 145 proof. I'll dilute down to the high 80's and maybe even through in some oak for a few weeks!

Still learning...

No essay needed saltbush bill. I appreciate the help and pointing me to something that I didn't find on my own is all the help one can ask for. thanks bud.
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Sprit run experience from today. Some observations

Post by Saltbush Bill »

basko wrote:I'm just about convinced that monitoring the temp on a pot still is pretty useless other than making sure I'm not running it too hot.
Im not sure what you mean by to hot ?..I don't understand this at all :( .
You cant change the temp within the still or boiler while you are distilling, its simply not possible. The temp is to low and nothing is leaving the still....or the boiler is boiling at what ever temp it wants, and spirit is leaving the still. All you can do is adjust the energy / power / heat you are applying to the wash which in turn will regulate "how hard the wash is boiling" which in turn will make the spirt leave the still faster or slower.
Example, is a pot of water ...when its boiling its 100c , that does not change if the water is only just boiling or if it is rolling over the sides of the saucepan....it will always be 100c
basko
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Re: Sprit run experience from today. Some observations

Post by basko »

I just meant bringing the temp up too quickly.

I try to creep the temp up slowly to prevent reaching a high temp too quickly.
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