winos sugar wash yield

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bigbuck
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winos sugar wash yield

Post by bigbuck »

ok not sure I would call myself a novice but I am having a darn time with the yield on this particular wash I cannot seem to get a good yield!!! I have done nchooches all grain with great results and I thought that one would prove to be the most difficult, I built a pot still column first then a reflux then a 3" flute and currently running a 4" flute with an 8 plate tree (that one was a bitch to build) anyways enough rambling, I put together around a 55 or 60 gallon sugar wash used 80lb of sugar 9 cups of tomato paste, oyster shells for ph control juice from 9 lemons and a few dashes of Epsom salt, held temp around 75 degrees until done fermenting,(I never checked starting sg I know I know) made yeast bomb from bakers yeast, pitched and let er roll, the end result after good cuts was about 2 1/2 gallons (if I was lucky) of 168 proof, used sugar wash calculator on parent site for some what of a guide, any of this sound way off mark to anyone? I thought yield would be better

also i want to thank everyone who provided info on flute builds, would never been possible if it werent for yall!!!!
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by Distillernz »

I used the calculator and it came back at 3.14 gallons. So you were a little short but not that far off the mark. 40lb of sugar in a 55 gallon wash will only produce a wash of 5.1%. Pretty sure his recipe starts with a sg of 1.070-1.080 so roughly 90lb of sugar could have been used and you could have ended up with about 7 gallons.
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by bigbuck »

im thinkin I may try 100 lb of sugar and see where I end up on next mash
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by bigbuck »

last mash I actually had 80 lb of sugar in it that's why im thinking I got something out of whack
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by shadylane »

bigbuck wrote:im thinkin I may try 100 lb of sugar and see where I end up on next mash
Just a thought
If something is out of wack on a ferment
Adding more sugar will make the problem worst and more expensive.
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by StillerBoy »

A few observasion.. first off, you didn't do a wineo's sugar wash, what you did was a birdwatch wash, which has a different formula..

Secondly, you were in the ball park for a 9 -10% wash ( 1.5 lbs per gal), by the amount of sugar used.. what you did not do is watch the ph, as sugar wash have a tendensive to go very acidic, like in 3.2 or so, and at that level, the yeast become dorman.. oyster shell will not help much in a sugar wash, because shells are to slow at reacting in a sugar wash.. the ph in a sugar wash will go down very fast, like within 24 hrs..

Thirdly, you fermented at 75*F, which is to low for baker's yeast, which should be fermented in the 85 - 90*F, otherwise it will take time to finish..

Fourthly, sugar shine are best distilled for neutral for 95% or 190 proof, which requires the use of refluxing..

You didn't take an SG and an FG.. a sugar wash for a 9.5% finish abv, the SG should be around 1.065 - 1.070..

Adding more sugar to your next batch, without correcting or understanding what you did wrong, will not give you a higher output..

Mars
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by bigbuck »

stiller boy you are absolutely right it is birdwatchers recipe typo on my part I was looking back at both recipes when I posted this, Im thinking my main problem is in the ph levels then, gonna have to order a ph meter and start keeping an eye on it, any idea what ph levels should be at and whats the fastest way to bring it down if oyster shells will not do the job? I will also take an sg reading on next batch,i am also wondering if tap water has a lot to do with it? hard to tell what chemicals they are treating water with around here and I do not have access to spring water without hauling it in
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by still_stirrin »

bigbuck wrote:...any idea what ph levels should be at and whats the fastest way to bring it down if oyster shells will not do the job? I will also take an sg reading on next batch
You’ll want to keep the pH at 4.5, or so. Some washes have fermented as the pH falls to 4.0, but those will be affected by the acidic environment. Also, pH falls as the wash goes acidic, so you want to hold it up, not bring it down.

Your oyster shells probably would work if they were crushed to bits. The acids need “surface area” in contact with the liquid molecules in order to react. Whole shells don’t expose enough molecular surface to be effective, especially in a wash of this size.

But, there are other bases which will work more effectively than the calcium carbonate in oyster shells. For example, calcium hydroxide (pickling lime) is a much stronger base such that it will react quicker to raise the pH. But if so using, be careful not to overshoot your target (it is quite possible to do if you’re not careful how you add the base). And bear in mind, the hydroxide bases are very caustic and can burn you if you’re not careful when handling it.
bigbuck wrote:...i am also wondering if tap water has a lot to do with it? hard to tell what chemicals they are treating water with around here and I do not have access to spring water without hauling it in
Boil it. Without knowing what water treatment has been done to your metropolitan water service, you should boil out the chlorine, chloramine, or flouride which might have been added. They WILL affect a ferment. Bring it to a boil and let it cool over night.
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by bigbuck »

SS do you think I need to add DAP to wash also? as far as the pickling lime goes on a wash of that size how much would you suggest adding at a time if necessary
Last edited by bigbuck on Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by StillerBoy »

bigbuck wrote: think I need to add DAP to wash also?
What are you planning to do, a birdwatcher or plain sugar shine.. both give difference results..

If it's the birdwatcher, then DAP is not required.. If it's a sugar shine, then yes DAP is require as part of the ingredents, along with other ingredents..

Mars
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by bigbuck »

its going to be birdwatchers I had a brain fart when I posted this topic I was looking at both recipes
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by still_stirrin »

bigbuck wrote:...as far as the pickling lime goes on a wash of that size (50 gallons) how much would you suggest adding at a time if necessary...
I’d start with 1/4 cup dissolved in a quart of hot water. Stir it up to get as much into solution as possible. Slowly add it to your ferment while gently stirring the ferment. Do not aerate the ferment at this point since fermentation has begun already.

After 15 minutes, or so, recheck the pH. You may need to make another hydroxide addition. But maybe not. Your target pH for a ferment that has crashed will be 4.0 to 4.5. So, don’t overdo the hydroxide...sneak up on it.
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by bigbuck »

thanks for all the input fellas,i am going to round up some supplies and start another wash and keep better notes, going after some spring water and ph meter, as soon as I get it put together I will take starting SG and get ph levels where they need to be and see if this will correct problem on yields
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by StillerBoy »

bigbuck wrote:i am going to round up some supplies
While you are at it, get some citric acid to help lower your Ph at the start.. from experience, lowering the Ph to about 5.5, the acidic level seem to not drop down as fast, and it's somewhat easier to manage than lemon juice, may be cheaper also than lemon, as lemon have become quite expense of late.. go easy on the addition of citric acid, as a little goes a long way..

Managing the Ph of a wash/mash is a very important step in the process.. all grains are easier to handle in the Ph process, as some grain bill the Ph will not more at all, other will need only a small adjustment.. but in sugar shine wash, the acidic level really go wild at time..

Mars
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by bigbuck »

does anyone have a digital ph meter that they would recommend for an application such as this?
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by Saltbush Bill »

You could also just try leaving all of the ph stuff out and just follow the original recipe while using slightly higher fermentation temps.
PH seems to be becoming an obession around here.
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by bigbuck »

water quality I think is a big part of the problem too, our tap water sucks around here smells like pool water sometimes
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by StillerBoy »

Saltbush Bill wrote:PH seems to be becoming an obession around here.
It all depends on the water quality.. used to use spring water some years back, the Ph was not as much an issue as today, using municipal water.. so as more and more members are using municipal water, the issue of Ph is a concern, as related to the number of members asking assistance with ferment that have stopped.. it becoming hard and hard to fine good quality water..

Mars
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by bigbuck »

I got a friend that has a really good spring fed well, Im gonna try his water and see if it makes a difference
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by Manc »

StillerBoy wrote:
Saltbush Bill wrote:PH seems to be becoming an obession around here.
It all depends on the water quality.. used to use spring water some years back, the Ph was not as much an issue as today, using municipal water.. so as more and more members are using municipal water, the issue of Ph is a concern, as related to the number of members asking assistance with ferment that have stopped.. it becoming hard and hard to fine good quality water..

Mars
+1 I agree Mars city water ok on 20 litre washes as soon as you try larger pH becomes a problem depending on the quality

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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by bigbuck »

sounds like a plan, I got materials on the way and going to use well water from a buddy and see if that fixes the problem, so this is the thought process in my head :wtf:
50 to 55 gallons well water
80 lb sugar
9 cups tomato paste
citric acid and pickling lime for ph adjustment (if needed)
dash of Epsom salt
check ph and starting sg
aerate with pump
just not sure how much bakers yeast to use?
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by StillerBoy »

bigbuck wrote:so this is the thought process in my head
you're starting to learn the process, but is not good.. notes will be of better assistance..
bigbuck wrote:just not sure how much bakers yeast to use?
if it was me, I would start with at least 400 gr of yeast, and go from there..

One other thing not on your list (but maybe in your head) is fermentation temp.. I would pitch at around 85*F and observe what energy the yeast will provide.. you may need to cool it down some, if it goes above 95*F..

As for a Ph meter, this is what I use.. they work ok for what we use them for.. service the meter properly, and you should be able to get a few years out of one.. https://www.ebay.com/itm/LCD-Digital-PH ... :rk:1:pf:0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Just my two cents..

Mars
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by shadylane »

bigbuck wrote: just not sure how much bakers yeast to use?
At $5 for 2 pounds bakers is cheap, boil $1 worth for neutrients and pitch another $1 for fermenting
50 cents worth of crushed oyster shells in a sock will take care of the pH.
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by StillerBoy »

shadylane wrote:50 cents worth of crushed oyster shells in a sock will take care of the pH.
Oyster shell, even crushed into small pieces, will not be of much help in lowering the Ph in a sugar wash.. the oyster shell do not react fast enough to be of help in lowering the Ph in a sugar wash, but they are ok in some grain bill mash..

Mars
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by bigbuck »

should have all supplies soon for wash, I am assuming I should adjust ph in water before anything else is added?
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by StillerBoy »

bigbuck wrote: I am assuming I should adjust ph in water before anything else is added?
The adjustment for the Ph is done along with the addition of the other ingredients.. the yeast is last ingredient added once the temp is adjusted, aiming for a Ph of 5.5 and temp of 90 - 95*F...

Mars
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by bigbuck »

how well do yall think this should perform in a 4"flute with 8 plates and a 30 gallon boiler? as long as mash is done and finished out correctly? I know that's a really vague question just wanting someone else's 2 cents, only other one I have left besides 4" flute is a 2" boka that runs good clean spirits but frankly is slow as shit!!
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by StillerBoy »

bigbuck wrote:only other one I have left besides 4" flute is a 2" boka that runs good clean spirits but frankly is slow as shit!!
Personally, I have not done neutral on a flute.. but.. done lots of neutral on a 2 and 3" concentric setup.. 2" will give out about 3.5 l per hr of 95%, and the 3" give will do 4.5 l.. both on 36" column height and lava rock as packing..

Boka's are very slow due to the nature of the design..

Mars
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by bigbuck »

just tested ph of my city water and ph is 8.5
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Re: winos sugar wash yield

Post by StillerBoy »

That's quite high on the alkaline side, as my city water is 7.4.. I bring my down to a 5.5 for fermenting by using citric acid, some amounts at a time, as cc is very powerful..

Mars
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