Optimal temperature for adding rye malt to mash?

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PopcornJr
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Optimal temperature for adding rye malt to mash?

Post by PopcornJr »

Hello fine folks, I have made a few batches of corn whiskey (mash bill = 80% corn, 20% barley malt + water) and I now want to add a dash of rye to the mix (75% corn, 12% barley malt, 13% rye malt). For my corn whiskey I would get the water boiling hard, kill the flame, then add the corn and let it cook with occasional stirring until temp dropped to 155F, at which point I would add the barley malt. My question is: is there an optimal temp to add the rye malt? I have a chart saying that rye likes lower temp for max enzyme activity -- ~120 - 140F range, so does it make sense to wait until temp is down to say 130F to add the rye? Alternatively, I was thinking that the barley will supply enough enzyme for conversion and the rye is added purely for flavor so maybe it won't much matter if I add both malts at 155F? I searched but could not find any info on this specific topic. Thanks in advance for any suggestions yall might have.
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Re: Optimal temperature for adding rye malt to mash?

Post by Fiddleford »

Haven't delt much with rye. What I do know is that stuff can thicken a bill real good
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Re: Optimal temperature for adding rye malt to mash?

Post by Expat »

If it's rye malt you shouldn't have an issue with it turning into a dough mess since the enzymes will be breaking down the starches as they gel.

For temps, here is a link the a very useful table. Should cover most things you'd want to mash.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16799
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Re: Optimal temperature for adding rye malt to mash?

Post by PopcornJr »

Thank you Expat, that is the same chart I've been using. I'm really just wondering if people stagger addition of the two malts to maximize enzyme activity or if this is overkill and it's ok to add both grains at the optimal barley temp of 150.
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Re: Optimal temperature for adding rye malt to mash?

Post by Expat »

I think that would depend on the overall DP of your mash. So long as you're below the denature temp for the enzymes, I would just add all the malt at the same time.
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Re: Optimal temperature for adding rye malt to mash?

Post by Twisted Brick »

Hey PopcornJr,

Good question. I've mashed that same grain bill a bunch and add both of the smaller grains at 150F (12gal mashes) to maximize enzymes and flavor. I usually dough-in my (ground) corn at 190F and HTL enzymes at 180F. At 2.25lbs/gal, this should get you 1.060 or a little above. Makes a tasty drop, great white.

Here is a good explanation of optimizing grains in AG mashes.
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Re: Optimal temperature for adding rye malt to mash?

Post by still_stirrin »

For rye malt, I like to do a beta-gluconase rest at 100-115*F. Hold it for 30 minutes, and then bring it up to mash at 150*F, or add it to the corn mash (see below).

But corn needs to be gelatinized (unless you’re using flaked maize which has been gelatinized in the flaking process), and that requires a hold at 185-190*F for a period of time. During this high temperature process, the corn mash will turn into “corn pudding”. So, high temperature enzymes help to keep the mash more liquid.

As a result of the opposing (optimum) temperatures, it works well to do a corn gelatinization mash AND do a rye beta-glucan mash. Start with the corn and get it mashing...boil a portion of your water, shut off the heat and “dough in” the corn meal. Stir it regularly and keep it warmed to the 185-190*F target. Insulation on the mash tun helps as does an external heat source. Add the high temp enzymes after the dough in to help with the viscosity of the mash.

After starting the corn mash, start another portion of water heating to around 115*F (but don’t over shoot that temperature). Then dough in your rye malt, stirring periodically. The mash will get very sticky from the glucans....if you rub your fingers together with some of the mash liquid on them, it will feel like they’ve been superglued together. In fact, the glucans in the rye make a great glue. Gluconase enzymes will help reduce some of the stickiness, if you’ve got them. Mash the rye malt for a half hour, or so.

After the corn mash has gelatinized a period (I like to give it an hour, or two), combine the rye mash with the corn mash and stir. Add cold water if necessary to bring the combined mash temperature down to 150-152*F. Then, add the barley malt and again stir it until homogenized. Cover the mash tun and let it rest for an hour, stirring occasionally. You’ll see the clear, sweet wort accumulating on the top of the grain bed. This is a sign you’re getting close.

Stir the mash and take a teaspoon and scoop a little of the liquid and put it on a saucer. Put a drop or two of iodine on the liquid and check for conversion. If the starches are converted, the iodine will stay amber colored. If the test turns dark purple, or almost black, you’ve still got a lot of unconverted starches. Be patient with this mash process and wait until you’re converted before attempting to move the mash to the fermenter, or lautering as I do. Maintain the ideal conversion temperature of 145-150*F by adding heat, if needed.

If you pay attention to this process, you will be rewarded with a nice bourbon ferment.

Good luck. And remember...your product will reward your dilligence and patience.
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Re: Optimal temperature for adding rye malt to mash?

Post by HDNB »

i work with 100% rye a lot. heed still stirrin's words he is bang on. the first sentence will be the difference between success and wishing you never started with rye.
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Re: Optimal temperature for adding rye malt to mash?

Post by BlueSasquatch »

still_stirrin wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:14 am For rye malt, I like to do a beta-gluconase rest at 100-115*F.
........
After starting the corn mash, start another portion of water heating to around 115*F (but don’t over shoot that temperature). Then dough in your rye malt, stirring periodically. The mash will get very sticky from the glucans....if you rub your fingers together with some of the mash liquid on them, it will feel like they’ve been superglued together. In fact, the glucans in the rye make a great glue. Gluconase enzymes will help reduce some of the stickiness, if you’ve got them. Mash the rye malt for a half hour, or so.
.......
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Not to bring up a dead thread here, but I've venturing into a 65% rye, 5% Barley 2-Row and 30% wheat mash soon and wanted to double check my procedure, looking to use Liquid Enzymes, so up in the air on having any Barley at all. (all ingredients malted)

Based on your post, my procedure would look like;

Water to 100-115 F and add in Rye Malt, for 30 minutes or so, raise temps to 155, add in wheat and barley, maintain about 150-152 for an hour, stirring occasionally.

High temp enzymes need to be at 185-190, so do I heat up my mash to this temp, then add in enzymes? Or do I heat plain water up to 185/90, add enzymes, then when it cools to 100-115, add my rye malt and start the procedure above?

I've had issues with lacto in the past, grain in the 170 degree temps will greatly reduce the odds of this? Re-heat after full starch conversion, to 170?

Im also going to attempt to use less water at the start, so that I can add colder water after starch conversion, to get to pitching temps faster, however I know rye with less water, is going to be a bit tricky.

I picked up enzymes when I did a batch of Booner's Casual Corn
"SEBStar is a high temp Alpha-Amalyse. 0.36ml per lb. of corn.
SEBAmyl- GL, a high productivity Glucoamylase. 0.36ml per lb."
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Re: Optimal temperature for adding rye malt to mash?

Post by Twisted Brick »

All you need is the glucanase rest (I strike at 110F and it rests at 107F) for 30-45min. Carefully raise temp to 155F and add your malts, gluco (and glucanase if you feel its necessary). Although it has a working temp range of 50-90C, I feel HTL is only needed for raw grains (CORN) that require a gel temp closer to boiling. Since your bill is made up of all malts, a great deal of the starch has been converted for you during malting.

I do the same with starting out with a thicker mash and adding cold water/backset to drop my mash temp and it works great. 2lbs/gal should get you 1.07 or thereabouts.

Lastly, you can control your mashes to optimize flavor.
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Re: Optimal temperature for adding rye malt to mash?

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Twisted Brick wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:38 am All you need is the glucanase rest (I strike at 110F and it rests at 107F) for 30-45min. Carefully raise temp to 155F and add your malts, gluco (and glucanase if you feel its necessary). Although it has a working temp range of 50-90C, I feel HTL is only needed for raw grains (CORN) that require a gel temp closer to boiling. Since your bill is made up of all malts, a great deal of the starch has been converted for you during malting.

I do the same with starting out with a thicker mash and adding cold water/backset to drop my mash temp and it works great. 2lbs/gal should get you 1.07 or thereabouts.

Lastly, you can control your mashes to optimize flavor.
Thanks! I keep forgetting the differences between RAW and MALT, I've got a 20 gallon-ish automated mill we made on the farm for raw corn, and soon an old school stone-wheat mill, so I've been planning on cracking/milling my own to save some $$ but they aren't 100% finished yet, so I've been ordering malt.

Interesting info from the wilderness trail, Rye at 135-158F yet HDNB mentions 170 which I think is for his high temp enzyme? As well as infection it sounds like, and I've had issues with lacto every 5th bucket or so. Hmmm.
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