T500 vs PID

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garnern2
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T500 vs PID

Post by garnern2 »

I see a lot of information going against PIDs here, and I understand the basic concept. I'm not trying to kindle the anti-PID movement. I am curious: the T500 instructions are based on temperature of the condenser output. A PID is presumably based on the temperature of the column, unless you connect the probe to the condenser and the output to a pump to control the water flow. Is the T500 generally accepted as a proper product, and is there a reason it is given a pass over a PID using the probe in the column? Would a PID be considered acceptable if the probe were connected to the condenser (like the thermometer on a T500) and the output connected to a variable speed pump?

I already have a brew panel, and I would like to know how best to use it for distilling--even if that means manually adjusting temperatures.
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Re: T500 vs PID

Post by NZChris »

Have you learned how to run it without a PID?
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Re: T500 vs PID

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Garnern it would help us help you if we knew how experienced you were with the T500, Have you run it before ? If so could you run that still and make good neutral spirit if I took your thermometer away ?
garnern2 wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 6:39 pm I am curious: the T500 instructions are based on temperature of the condenser output.
That is correct, but the manufacturers have come up with those temps only as a rough guide so that running the still can be explained to even the greenest newbie.
The temps given are not necessarily the best temp to go by , they are just a compromise between output speed and purity of spirit .....enough to make the still look good and productive and to keep the average Joe Blow in cheap mediocre booze.
Forgetting about temps and running the still by eye ( watching the output speed) will result in a better spirit and at the same time save constant fiddling with the water flow trying to maintain the exact temps stated in the owners manual.
It would be more accurate to say that the still is operated by adjusting the water output temp of the reflux condencer, for the sake of those who have never seen one or used one. Its a CM " Cooling Management" still.
If your aim is to automate the still to a point where you can walk away from it whenever you want then you probably wont get much support here.
This forums priority is safety and one of the first rules of distilling is that you never leave a still alone.
In theory if you wanted to somehow semi automate that still you would measure the water temp exiting the reflux coil and then find a way to regulate the flow of water to or from the condenser which in turn would regulate the temp of the water leaving the condencer.
Personally I'm not into gadgetry, I prefer to use traditional methods and my god given senses to run a still.
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Re: T500 vs PID

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 12:46 am In theory if you wanted to somehow semi automate that still you would measure the water temp exiting the reflux coil and then find a way to regulate the flow of water to or from the condenser which in turn would regulate the temp of the water leaving the condencer.

You are right Salty , it has been done that way by some experienced distillers . Swede , Olddog and Wiifm come to mind . OK , it was on a Flute and not a T500 but ...Both are CM reflux stills and typically Produce around 92-93% AVB .... so In my thinking , on the same page .

Now , these guys all used a PID to control deflag coolant flow via a solenoid valve ... so it clicks on clicks off .

Garnern
You gotta realise these guys have been at it a long time .
Probably bored to death so this was just another step to alleviate the boredom and these guys were also quite techno so it was a natural thing for them .

Having said that , I was building Crystal set radios when I was 10 yr and spent 30 years in electronics industry and while I spend many an hour watching my still and thinking about all this flashing light gizmo stuff , I’ve never bothered ..... quite frankly , I don’t think it can achieve anything I can’t do .

Not knocking it , just saying it’s not essential

Give two newbs a T500 , one with a PID controlling it and one without . I’m gonna say it would be luck of the draw which one tasted better .
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: T500 vs PID

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Yummyrum wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 1:55 am flow via a solenoid valve ... so it clicks on clicks off .
Problem with that idea is that T500s are super sensitive to water flow changes, clicking on and off would be a big no no....you'd have to rig up some sort of motor operated tap/ flow regulator type arrangement that could make minute adjustments at any given time.
In short more trouble than its worth imo.
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Re: T500 vs PID

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 2:11 am
Yummyrum wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 1:55 am flow via a solenoid valve ... so it clicks on clicks off .
Problem with that idea is that T500s are super sensitive to water flow changes, clicking on and off would be a big no no....you'd have to rig up some sort of motor operated tap/ flow regulator type arrangement that could make minute adjustments at any given time.
In short more trouble than its worth imo.
Agree. The lag between the valve adjustment to adjusted behavior on the apparatus is what makes chasing temperatures a pain in the ass with this,,,more or less psuedo automation. Constantly over steering.
Frankly it's just easier and equally precise at the hobby scale to manually adjust.
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Re: T500 vs PID

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I totally agree Larry its all a huge waste of time , I hate this stuff, I still use gas under my boiler and my senses to run the thing, Used a hydrometer for the first time in about 8 years just the other day, only did that to amuse Yummy cause he wanted to know something. Don't own and probably never will own a PH meter. Had about 2 stuck ferments in 9-10 years.....and no complaints about my booze.
Maybe that makes me a caveman stiller ......but I really don't care. The job still gets done.
Moral of story is ya don't need a pile of fancy stuff and gadgets to make good booze.
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Re: T500 vs PID

Post by Corsaire »

True, you don't. Still some people (myself excluded) like to tinker with this stuff.

I think the op's idea of using a pid to control a variable flow pump is feasible. Is it the best idea? Probably not, there are better ways to get a more efficient still I think.

I've never ran a t500 so can't really comment, but from what I've read here the best thing you can do is use a power controller.
garnern2 wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 6:39 pm I already have a brew panel, and I would like to know how best to use it for distilling--even if that means manually adjusting temperatures.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
Chasing boiler temps is good for brewing, not for distilling.
What's a brew panel?
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Re: T500 vs PID

Post by still_stirrin »

Corsaire wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 4:23 am...What's a brew panel?
I’d assume it to be a component of his RIMS (recirculation infusion mash system). It would control the heat element that heats water which pumps through the mash tun by sensing the mash temperature. Right?
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Re: T500 vs PID

Post by garnern2 »

NZChris wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 8:41 pm Have you learned how to run it without a PID?
Not yet. I’m doing my first run on a propane burner this weekend if the weather cooperates. I’m just thinking ahead.

Saltbush Bill wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 2:11 am
Yummyrum wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 1:55 am flow via a solenoid valve ... so it clicks on clicks off .
Problem with that idea is that T500s are super sensitive to water flow changes, clicking on and off would be a big no no....you'd have to rig up some sort of motor operated tap/ flow regulator type arrangement that could make minute adjustments at any given time.
In short more trouble than its worth imo.
I’m not actually running a T500. I made the comparison because it seems that the T500 has some support here, and it is based on making adjustments based on a temperature reading (condenser deflag temperature in this case). PIDs do not have support here for controlling the hearing source, and I understand the reason for that. I was asking for opinions on whether a PID could be used to make the exact same adjustments as the ones made with a T500 and based on the exact same data.
LWTCS wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 3:45 am
Saltbush Bill wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 2:11 am
Yummyrum wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 1:55 am flow via a solenoid valve ... so it clicks on clicks off .
Problem with that idea is that T500s are super sensitive to water flow changes, clicking on and off would be a big no no....you'd have to rig up some sort of motor operated tap/ flow regulator type arrangement that could make minute adjustments at any given time.
In short more trouble than its worth imo.
Agree. The lag between the valve adjustment to adjusted behavior on the apparatus is what makes chasing temperatures a pain in the ass with this,,,more or less psuedo automation. Constantly over steering.
Frankly it's just easier and equally precise at the hobby scale to manually adjust.
I haven’t used a T500 and I won’t be for this—I’m basically attempting to use my existing brew panel and build my own. I have used PIDs for propane and electric and they are much better at fine adjustments than me.
still_stirrin wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 5:01 am
Corsaire wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 4:23 am...What's a brew panel?
I’d assume it to be a component of his RIMS (recirculation infusion mash system). It would control the heat element that heats water which pumps through the mash tun by sensing the mash temperature. Right?
ss
Yes, except I would be using it to control the pump rather than the element in this case. I only use it to control the element in brewing, but I put a switch that allows me to change from the “heat” receptacle (for brewing) to the “cool” receptacle (for, possibly, distilling).


Thanks everyone for the replies! I’m going to try and figure out how my still behaves this weekend if the weather cooperates, and hopefully I’ll have a better idea of how to use my existing controllers to help the process along. I am not ever going to try automate so I can go fishing while it runs lol. I do like gadgets, though...
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Re: T500 vs PID

Post by LWTCS »

Cool.
No doubt the gadgetry is very cool stuff.
But if your instrumentation does less than run your apparatus optimally you'll simply never make your best finished product.

Now if you are experimenting for the sake of your own edification that's a different story.
But at some point if your ultimate goal is making the best possible spirits, I would guess that you'll soon grow weary of all the futzing and just want to get on with the task of actually making your best finished product.
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Re: T500 vs PID

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As a control engineer (heavily biased normally), would certainly say that a PID doesn't serve much of a practical purpose in this instance.
Have a good read on these forums as there's plenty of great advice and information to get you started.

However, will share a few changes from my own tinkering,
I have made three modifications to the T500 so far,
The first being a power controller for the element itself, I personally like to dial it back a bit once initial boiling has taken place as i have a fear of burning the plate at the bottom.
Secondly i dumped the plastic hose from the outlet and use a parrot now instead.
Thirdly i use a submersible aquarium pump which runs from my own reservoir, this is then split with a tee to send water constantly to the condenser and the rest of the water is controlled via a gate valve for the reflux action, if anything i enjoy using this valve XD.
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Re: T500 vs PID

Post by Saltbush Bill »

All excellent improvements and ways to make a t500 more user friendly. :thumbup:
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Re: T500 vs PID

Post by acfixer69 »

That is an perfect description of the best water destribtion I've seen in a while. That is the best way on any reflux still.
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Re: T500 vs PID

Post by garnern2 »

Hengist wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 5:04 pm As a control engineer (heavily biased normally), would certainly say that a PID doesn't serve much of a practical purpose in this instance.
Have a good read on these forums as there's plenty of great advice and information to get you started.

However, will share a few changes from my own tinkering,
I have made three modifications to the T500 so far,
The first being a power controller for the element itself, I personally like to dial it back a bit once initial boiling has taken place as i have a fear of burning the plate at the bottom.
Secondly i dumped the plastic hose from the outlet and use a parrot now instead.
Thirdly i use a submersible aquarium pump which runs from my own reservoir, this is then split with a tee to send water constantly to the condenser and the rest of the water is controlled via a gate valve for the reflux action, if anything i enjoy using this valve XD.
It's interesting that a control engineer wouldn't find a tuned PID useful in adjusting the flow of the coolant and would rather rely on an ambiguous adjustment made by a human to do so. I'm not using the T500, though...I'm attempting to build a version of own while using a PID to control it in the same manner a human controls the needle valve with the T500. I will ultimately use the PID to control it in some form (whether allowing it to automate the pump adjustment or manually dialing in the heating input), since I already have a 30A controller box built for my home brew setup. I did add a new switch to change to a new "cooling" outlet to which I can connect a variable speed pump. If it doesn't work, I'll set my 5500W element at 40% and let it rip while I make manual adjustments with the needle valve.
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Re: T500 vs PID

Post by NZChris »

If you were going to control the 'temperature out', (Tout), of the cooling water with a PID, you would also have to control the 'temperature in' or have stable cooling water temperature, as it is the amount of energy extracted by the cooling water that controls the amount of reflux, not Tout.

In my shed, because the flow of cooling water used is quite slow, a passing cloud or an open door can affect the temperature in. While I would like to use a PID to control my Bokakob's RC and I do have a suitable PID and a choice of pumps or solenoids that I could use, it would be better to use a programmable controller like an Arduino with two thermocouples. That said, my Bokakob can knock out azeo from start to finish with very little, if any, interference from me once I've found the sweet spot, mostly only needing adjustments for extreme weather changes.
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Re: T500 vs PID

Post by Corsaire »

Thanks NZChris. That makes a lot of sense. I'm a low tech kind of guy but would like to build a still with my brother, who loves electronics and despises manual labor :-D
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Re: T500 vs PID

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Corsaire wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:33 pm Thanks NZChris. That makes a lot of sense. I'm a low tech kind of guy but would like to build a still with my brother, who loves electronics and despises manual labor :-D
There is quite a bit that can be automated, one simple task at a time. I'm sure that there is at least one automation thread here.
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Re: T500 vs PID

Post by Corsaire »

I'm equally sure of that. I just haven't looked into it yet as that build isn't very high on the list of priorities.
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Re: T500 vs PID

Post by Hengist »

You could automate the cooling input, but the cost wouldn't necessarily be worth the endeavour.

But nevertheless ..... Your best bet would be to install a VFD on the pump and control the flow of water that way, plus a temp probe which can supply a 4-20ma signal to the drive? as mentioned prior that relies on the water being a set temperature.

Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean you should :)

By using a reservoir filled by mains and a sump pump, the only variable I have is a gate valve which I find much more user friendly and accurate than the needle valve supplied.

Happy to help anyone with control endeavours otherwise however :D
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Re: T500 vs PID

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NZChris wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 10:55 pm That said, my Bokakob can knock out azeo from start to finish with very little, if any, interference from me once I've found the sweet spot, mostly only needing adjustments for extreme weather changes.
That's a good point that I feel gets lost on the lost crowd coming in from the You Tube gurus. Is it because they don't yet know what they don't know? Eyedunno?
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Re: T500 vs PID

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Hengist wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 1:30 am You could automate the cooling input, but the cost wouldn't necessarily be worth the endeavour.

But nevertheless ..... Your best bet would be to install a VFD on the pump and control the flow of water that way, plus a temp probe which can supply a 4-20ma signal to the drive? as mentioned prior that relies on the water being a set temperature.

Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean you should :)

By using a reservoir filled by mains and a sump pump, the only variable I have is a gate valve which I find much more user friendly and accurate than the needle valve supplied.

Happy to help anyone with control endeavours otherwise however :D
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Re: T500 vs PID

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NZChris wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 10:55 pm If you were going to control the 'temperature out', (Tout), of the cooling water with a PID, you would also have to control the 'temperature in' or have stable cooling water temperature, as it is the amount of energy extracted by the cooling water that controls the amount of reflux, not Tout.

In my shed, because the flow of cooling water used is quite slow, a passing cloud or an open door can affect the temperature in. While I would like to use a PID to control my Bokakob's RC and I do have a suitable PID and a choice of pumps or solenoids that I could use, it would be better to use a programmable controller like an Arduino with two thermocouples. That said, my Bokakob can knock out azeo from start to finish with very little, if any, interference from me once I've found the sweet spot, mostly only needing adjustments for extreme weather changes.
Maybe I'm not clear on how the T500 is operated, or maybe I'm not doing a good job of explaining my proposed method. My understanding is that the T500 is operated by holding the temperature of the outflow cooling water between 55C and 65C, shooting for an ideal temperature of 57C to 60C. The flow rate of 500ml per minute is a ballpark estimate, and the user has to make adjustments to the cooling water flow to hold its temperature once the still heats up. The user also must make adjustments during the run based on changes in the temperature of the cooling water. This seems to be a somewhat supported way of doing things from what I've read on the forum, or at least the T500 itself seems to be somewhat supported.

In my scenario, the variable pump replaces the needle valve, and the PID replaces the human calculation and adjustments. The thermocouple replaces the thermometer and it goes in the same place. I don't really see a difference in the two methods if my understanding of the operation of the T500 is correct, but I also don't think the T500 is the best setup based on my reading. For neutral spirits, 95% ABV is pretty impressive.
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Re: T500 vs PID

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Have you had trouble manually trying to keep the temperature in that range?
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Re: T500 vs PID

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NZChris wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 12:48 pm Have you had trouble manually trying to keep the temperature in that range?
With my sacrificial run of 15L of 9.2% cheap wine, I just ran my still based on its output by adjusting the heating element and didn't even check the temperature of the cooling water. It worked ok I guess, but since I couldn't taste it, I really don't know. I'm fine with doing it that way from now on if necessary as I am too skittish (wise?) to leave it unattended even to go to the bathroom. I've got my neutral batch almost ready to start clearing and I want to shoot for the high proof on one run, as I really don't have the patience to do stripping runs and then a spirit run, so I'm playing around with things trying to make them as efficient as possible.

The PID idea is really just because I have had one for a while for home brewing and I want to see if I can make it work for this new hobby. The only way I could ever see it working would be to make adjustments like those made on the T500. I'm not married to the idea at all--I just wanted to see if others have tried it this way or if there is a reason that it wouldn't work at the same level as a human making the same adjustments, especially once it's tuned.
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Re: T500 vs PID

Post by NZChris »

Once you've run it a few times, you might find that a felt tip mark on the needle valve is all you need. I've mounted a pointer on a needle valve body that comes out to the edge of the handle to give me more accuracy.

Stable water pressure and temperature helps.
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Re: T500 vs PID

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 2:11 am
Yummyrum wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 1:55 am flow via a solenoid valve ... so it clicks on clicks off .
Problem with that idea is that T500s are super sensitive to water flow changes, clicking on and off would be a big no no....you'd have to rig up some sort of motor operated tap/ flow regulator type arrangement that could make minute adjustments at any given time.
In short more trouble than its worth imo.
I don’t like talking too much about stuff I’ve not tried myself , but the Three guys I mentioned back ago all got their Stills running fine using the solenoid Control . Swede actually sells them to distilleries so I doubt he’d be doing that if it didn’t work . Olddog gave it the thumbs up . If that guy said it worked them I believe him . Same as Wii.

Now I beleve with a slow coolant flow , the thermal mass of the deflag averages out the pulsed water flow .So the product output is smooth and continuous, not stopping and starting .

Olddog IIRC tried monitoring vapour temp but conceded it was not reliable and went back to following Swedes method of monitoring coolant output temp .

Wiifm , got sick of listening to the clicks and tried to replace it with a control valve . I believe he never accomplished this .

As I said , this was done on a flute not a T500 .

Again , its not for me but it can be made to work .
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Re: T500 vs PID

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garnern2 wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 11:22 am For neutral spirits, 95% ABV is pretty impressive
Good luck with that..... best I've seen is 93 temp corrected.
If you want to run one at 1 drip per second or less and take a week to do a run you might just scrap 95% in if your very lucky.
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Re: T500 vs PID

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garnern2 wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 11:22 am For neutral spirits, 95% ABV is pretty impressive
Good luck with that..... best I've seen is 93 temp corrected.
If you want to run one at 1 drip per second or less and take a week to do a run you might just scrap 95% in if your very lucky.
What you say about how they run is correct otherwise.
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Re: T500 vs PID

Post by NZChris »

You can smooth out the feed a bit by controlling a pump or solenoid valve supplying a weir, which is what I do with a couple of Liebigs. I don't know how well it would work for T500, or if it would be worth the effort.
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