Cleaning Patient Rooms - High ABV

[WileECoyote]

Hi Everyone, I have been reading here for a while, but I can't seem to find exactly what I'm looking for. I would think this subject would be well documented here, but I'm just missing it. I apologize in advance if this has been covered.

Even though I'm in the healthcare field, we're literally having the same issues as many of you when it comes to being able to purchase disinfectants. A couple of months back my office manager told me we had no way of disinfecting surfaces between patients. So, having grown up a country boy, I went online and started researching as best I could. I get that I'm probably doing a lot of this wrong. That's why I'm here, so please be kind.

I've heard terms like stressing the yeast etc. I'm probably doing that. So far I have been using a Turbo Yeast to make sanitizer, but it's often hard to find and high priced for as much as we use. I have read about some people using a Red Star yeast with a "Fermax" yeast nutrient instead. I would be very grateful if anyone could point me in the right direction toward a recipe for that.

Here is the challenge when I start researching the perfect recipe. I don't care about taste or quality. I care about ABV. We're just killing germs. I want high ABV. As high as I can get it.

Here's what I have been using: 5 Gallons (18.9 L) of Reverse Osmosis Filtered Water (We have an RO filter in the office kitchen)
16 lbs (7.26 Kg) of sugar so 3.2#/gal. (.38 kg/L)
1 package of Turbo Yeast.

I shut down the wash after 14 days when it's only giving a slight bubble ever 2 minutes or so. Using an Air Still a 1 Gallon run gives me 24 oz of 60% ABV. So just short of a gallon of sanitizer for the run. If we need to dilute it to make hand sanitizer, well then a second run takes our volume way down of course.

Advice would be much appreciated on a better recipe. Thank you in advance for the help.

[acfixer69]

Here is Shady's Sugar Shine viewtopic.php?f=96&t=72946 This will help with the cost of the wash, but you have a limited ABV to what a single run with the Air Still produce.

[TDick]

Even though I'm in the healthcare field, we're literally having the same issues as many of you when it comes to being able to purchase disinfectants.

Welcome Sir!

As much as I would like to have you join us making a drinkable dram, I'm a little confused about your situation.
The reason I say that I have a good friend who is a "co-packer" - they get bulk products shipped in and package them into retail containers.
3-4 weeks ago we were talking about "the state of things" & I mentioned the shortage of hand sanitizer.

He told me the problem was NOT the lack of product but the lack of retail packaging to meet the demand.

"I called some people and said I needed some for my people in the plant. Guy told me he had all the gallon containers I wanted."

I'm not sure that translates to the disinfectants you are looking for but I can get a name if it would help.

Also, I had to put my mask on & go to Lowe's yesterday. They had huge displays of cleaners & disinfectants.

[tombombadil]

Potential ABv comes from initial sugar concentration.

Actual ABv depends on how much of the sugar the yeast is able to ferment.

Each yeast has a maximum alcohol tolerance.

Each yeast requires nutrients other than just sugar.

So, if you want to maximize abv, find a highly alcohol tolerant yeast and follow the manufacturer's instructions.

I'm sure there are better yeasts to use for your purpose, but if I was in your shoes I would just pick a sugar wash from the tried and true section but up the sugar and use ec-1118 yeast (18% alcohol tolerance).

You can run it once it stops fermenting, siphon off the top of the yeast cake and start the next batch right on top of the old yeast. Subsequent batches should ferment out faster from the higher yeast count and extra nutrients from the dead yeast.

A couple tricks

Oxygenate (stir) aggressively every day - yeasts need oxygen for alcohol tolerance. Normally you stop oxygenating after the first couple days because oxidation doesn't taste good but you don't care about that

Maybe step feed it. Basically start with 2#/ gallon but add some more every other day until you're up to 2.5-3#/ gallon. The high sugar concentration is tough on the yeast, step feeding gets around that problem. Then your only limited by the alcohol tolerance.

[WileECoyote]

Thanks for that link. That does confirm my suspicion that I'm heavy on sugar and perhaps cutting the sugar by half will not result in a loss of alcohol content. That's great news as it will allow for a little added space in my bucket that is needed for the last run each time.

Shady talked about DAP, and that's one of those things that seems to be getting hard to come by at times. I have read some on Fermax. Is that a comparable option at the same 3 Tbsp dose?

I was afraid an air still would be quite limiting on proof. The good news is that non-diluted it seems to make the cut; pardon the pun. 60% ABV seems to be consistently what I get on the stripping run. Any thoughts on what I should be getting on the second run?

Right now my staff is just thrilled to have anything to clean surfaces. Texas has become a hotbed and we have been setting records in this area daily for three weeks on cases, hospitalizations, and deaths.

Oh, and thanks for your willingness to help, acfixer69.

@TDick

That's very interesting. Disinfectant is very hard to find here. We have actually be aerosoling much of the homemade version. Be careful about what you find at HD and Lowes. The reason I say that is that I recently came up on some great buys on gallon jugs with no limit on how many I could buy. They even proudly displayed their CDC number on the jug. Well I went to the CDC list and found that the product had been listed for the first time about a month ago. Okay, so it's someone capitalizing on the pandemic. No problem, I'm fine with entrepreneurs making a profit, but then I looked at the contact time. As I recall, it took 10 minutes of wet surface time to kill the virus. What are we trying to do? Drown it? That means they would have to spray the counter and keep it wet for 10 minutes before wiping it clean.

IMO bleach is best, but there are just some places we can't use bleach. Imagine aerosoling that and spraying it on the furniture.

I will look into your option though. Most of what we buy is 3M. I doubt they will let me send gallon jugs, but maybe someone else will. Thanks.

[WileECoyote]

@tombombadil
There seems to be a lot of wisdom in that post. Where to start?

...but up the sugar and use ec-1118 yeast (18% alcohol tolerance).

I'm looking at that yeast, but there are a lot of options. Looks like it would take a lot of packages of that with Shady's recipe.

You can run it once it stops fermenting, siphon off the top of the yeast cake and start the next batch right on top of the old yeast. Subsequent batches should ferment out faster from the higher yeast count and extra nutrients from the dead yeast.

CRAP!
That makes total sense and I just cleaned the bucket again. I have seen the enemy and he is I.

Oxygenate (stir) aggressively every day - yeasts need oxygen for alcohol tolerance. Normally you stop oxygenating after the first couple days because oxidation doesn't taste good but you don't care about that

I truly wondered about that, but everything I had read kept referring to the CO2 cap layer. You're right. If it's for taste, I don't need it and I always thought 02 made sense. I could just run an aquarium air stone or hose down to the bottom like in an aerobic septic tank.

Maybe step feed it. Basically start with 2#/ gallon but add some more every other day until you're up to 2.5-3#/ gallon. The high sugar concentration is tough on the yeast, step feeding gets around that problem. Then your only limited by the alcohol tolerance.

Okay, so I'm back to my 3#/gal. Just in steps instead of all at once. All of a sudden what we've been paying 3M all these years doesn't seem so unreasonable.

[tombombadil]

Stirring aggressively serves two purposes. One is adding oxygen and two is degassing. As co2 levels rise it can slow the yeast down. I don't know the science behind it, but when I was making high abv meads it seemed to help.

I think generally people like to have the co2 cap to reduce oxidation and also to reduce infection. It's weird though because wine makers degas during fermentation. Either way, for your purposes, I believe it will be beneficial.

[tombombadil]

Oh, and for yeast amount, I think you should be good with like 3 grams / gallon on the first batch, and you should be able to repitch for many generations. The flavor may get worse but you don't care about that.

[WileECoyote]

Sounding good. So 3 grams per gallon, and perhaps add Fermax if I can't get the DAP? Would you also add Shady's boiled bakers yeast at the bottom for nutrients? I just ordered an aquarium air pump and stone. Figured it can't hurt to give it a try.

[tombombadil]

Ya, each sugar wash recipe is designed to include the required nutrients so just pick one and follow it.

[metalsmith]

I too am in the healthcare field. You are risking a huge fire using high proof alcohol on surfaces. Hand sanitizer needs to be 70 percent or better to kill bacteria and viruses. Do not “aerosolize “. It. Do not saturate surfaces with it. It only takes a spark to ignite. Ask your State Fire Marshall if it OK to us alcohol like this. I bet his answer is an emphatic”NO!”

[Saltbush Bill]

If your having trouble getting DAP or other ingredients
You could try Birdwatchers using tomatoe paste as nutrient.
You could also run ferment after ferment from the yeast cake / slurry left in the bottom of the fermenter.
After a couple of ferments you should have enough yeast to divide it up to get a second or third fermenter going.
You then end up with an almost continuous supply of finished wash ready to run.
As your not worried about taste you could up the sugar amount from whats stated in the Tried n Tested recipe.

[WileECoyote]

Thanks, Bill. That's great to know. I don't know why I was cleaning that bucket after each run. Too much aseptic technique beat into my noggin over the years I suppose. I ordered an extra bucket today so that I can start staggering the runs each week. Trying to keep the recipe as simple as possible as time is a precious commodity. I don't even finish dictation until about 11:30 each night.

I still have 3 or 4 packages of Turbo left, so I'll finish up with those, but after the conversation with tombombadil earlier I ordered an air pump and stone that will be here tomorrow. I may make the next run identical to the previous runs with the exception of the air pump just to see if there is a notable difference there. Then again, there is an extra oxygen tank sitting back there.

Maybe I'd better put this in bleach jugs so the cleaning crew doesn't think to start drinking it.

[Yummyrum]

I believe that Ethanol has to be 80% ABV to be effective against Covid19 ...its 70% AVB for Iso-propol alcohol .( according to WHO)

I think you might be better off investing in a better reflux still than using an Airstill .

If the safety of Patients is in your hands , get it right

[Saltbush Bill]

If you are short of supplies use the TURBO yeast slurry / cake from the bottom of the current ferments to start others ..it should be viable yeast and should work just fine.

[goose eye]

You ain't drinkin it you ain't needed food grade DAP.
All that is is ferterlizer. Go to feed and seed store.
Stair step your sugar. Get distillery yeast..

You ever seen one of them high proof fire burn? That right you can't.. Static electricity and you mistin ethanol and you gonna make the evenin news.

So I'm tole

[WileECoyote]

@Yummyrum your point is valid. I keep hoping we'll be able to get a few cases from 3M before too long. Fingers crossed. It does take a second run to get up to around 85%. CDC is good with 60% on hand sanitize.

@goose eye, thanks. That makes sense of what I had seen recently about a 20-0-0.

[seamusm53]

I too am in the healthcare field. You are risking a huge fire using high proof alcohol on surfaces. Hand sanitizer needs to be 70 percent or better to kill bacteria and viruses. Do not “aerosolize “. It. Do not saturate surfaces with it. It only takes a spark to ignite. Ask your State Fire Marshall if it OK to us alcohol like this. I bet his answer is an emphatic”NO!”

Double ditto. You do not want to use anything approaching Everclear in terms of Proof though you can make what you want and dilute to 70% before use. Have read stories of fire traveling along the path of Everclear carried across a restaurant and ignited.

[Black Hearts]

Good luck and thank you for your service! You're a real hero

[metalsmith]

WileE Coyote- You can brew whatever you want. But you have to check with your Facilities Director and Risk Management Director before you use anything you brew up in the hospital. The risk is huge. And I mean HUGE. You could loose everything you have worked so hard for. HOMELESS is not out of the question.

[acfixer69]

Sumtin to think about WileE Good intentions won't win in the courts.

[WileECoyote]

Thanks everyone.

Guys, You're absolutely right, and I appreciate the concerns. Please know I'm well covered, and well versed. Additionally Risk Management is in the loop. Each day in healthcare you choose with which devil you'll dance with. Two weeks ago it was "All patients must go to isolation for 14 days," but the isolation rooms weren't in the locked memory care ward. So, when the dementia patient wandered out into the parking lot, the director decided that locked unit won out over CDC guidelines.

Keep in mind that "Ethanol is the primary ingredient in Lysol spray and is highly flammable, especially under pressure." Thanks for the concerns though. I realize they were all meant for the well meaning of all involved.

[metalsmith]

Wil-lh, I had to laugh at the “ the devil you dance with...”. Comment. Do we make the state fire marshal happy, or the Medicare/Medicaid inspector happy. Or the Joint Commission surveyor happy, or that doctor that does not care about anything but “me”.

[WileECoyote]

Wil-lh, I had to laugh at the “ the devil you dance with...”. Comment. Do we make the state fire marshal happy, or the Medicare/Medicaid inspector happy. Or the Joint Commission surveyor happy, or that doctor that does not care about anything but “me”.

Then this one will make you laugh: https://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2013/11/ho ... jcaho.html

[goose eye]

Y'all use Lysol instead of virex an Clorox an such?
You think the administrators gonna stand behind you if somethin happens you don't know the politics of a hospital and lawsuits. They'll turn on you quick. Don't think so? Get somethin in writin that it ok to do what you doin. Cya.

So I'm tole

[Hambone]

Y'all use Lysol instead of virex an Clorox an such?
You think the administrators gonna stand behind you if somethin happens you don't know the politics of a hospital and lawsuits. They'll turn on you quick. Don't think so? Get somethin in writin that it ok to do what you doin. Cya.

So I'm tole

You don’t sound green about this, Goose. Good advice for sure....

[v-child]

I too am in the healthcare field. You are risking a huge fire using high proof alcohol on surfaces. Hand sanitizer needs to be 70 percent or better to kill bacteria and viruses. Do not “aerosolize “. It. Do not saturate surfaces with it. It only takes a spark to ignite. Ask your State Fire Marshall if it OK to us alcohol like this. I bet his answer is an emphatic”NO!”

Double ditto. You do not want to use anything approaching Everclear in terms of Proof though you can make what you want and dilute to 70% before use. Have read stories of fire traveling along the path of Everclear carried across a restaurant and ignited.

Triple ditto!
Most places use a form of sodium hydrochloride (clorine bleach) as a sanitizer, I couldn't see risking anyone's life with alcohol. Besides that, the VA Center I volunteer at will not allow anything with ETOH, denatured or not as the residents are notorious for drinking mouthwash, aftershave or anything else with ethanol.
Do you really want to risk your livelihood or risk prison time so a private organization could make a buck? I'd have to wonder what kind of place would allow someone to bring in homemade hootch to clean surfaces.

[WileECoyote]

Some updates:

Thanks to everyone who offered insight, and especially to you @tombombadil.

Your comments shifted my thinking enough to ask the right question to the right guy during Grand Rounds. He is a professor of biomedical chemistry who had me take a few samples and send him the results. Al of that culminated into a gentleman’s wager. Monday morning, he is making a test run in the lab that he says will easily give a 16-point rise in the first run. If he is correct I have to cover a lecture for him. If he’s wrong, he owes me a bottle of Johnnie Blue King George V. One of the psych professors said I needed my head examined for taking a bet against this guy, but I explained to him that I saw it as a no lose proposition. I either get to learn something new, or we all get to sit down 6’ apart and enjoy a bottle of King George.

It’s a bit academic at least for the time being as we finally got a rather large back order of hand cleaner and disinfectant. It remains to be seen as to if this is a repaired supply chain. We’re going through this stuff faster than ever. We set a record for deaths in the past three days. Hopefully we won’t be back in this situation, but if we are, we’ll deal with it.

Which brings me to all the other comments. What is it about giving someone a keyboard? Stephen Hawking himself could go online and post, “I have a 1/8 zinc bolt with British threads and need a copper nut to fit it. Does anyone have a source?” Perhaps it would draw curiosity and may warrant comments like, “That’s an unusual pairing. I have no idea, but do you mind if I ask what it’s for?” Maybe, “Sorry, no ideas on copper, but if bronze would work you might try…” It’s a simple question, but would likely draw comments like, “You’re going to have all kinds of problems with reactions. That’s a stupid idea.”

All of the self-appointed evangelistic comments above are blatantly obvious. Therefore, I have to wonder if the comments are based on a lack of reading the original sentiment of the thread, or just a need for pontificating for a feeling of self-importance. In a world without supply chain challenges, why would anyone even bother jumping through these hoops? By the way, that was a rhetorical question.

Even hospital associated free clinics in low-income areas couldn’t survive without the extras put in by the medical staff. Prior to implementing home grown masks made out of double layers of MERV 20 air filters supplied to us by hospital maintenance, nurses had become an endangered species due to testing positive and then waiting through the 14-day quarantine window after recovery. Children’s Medical Center has so many nurses out, they’re bringing in contract nurses to run the wards. Nurses were being required to wear the same mask all day and N-95 level masks had to be requisitioned from a supervisor by special request and the need proven. Since implementing home grown masks designed by one of the biomedical guys out of these filters, the infection rate above norm is now de minimis. Why would anyone make masks though? For the same reason someone might make disinfectant.

@goose eye, yes we use real disinfectant, but we could not can’t get it? Did you not read the thread? The comment about Lysol was a quote from Lysol’s site intended to make an illustration which was obviously lost. My business partner in another endeavor is a former judge, and currently “Of Counsel” to a firm that handles a large chain of medical facilities in the area. Legal? We’re good.

To all those who offered help, and to @Black Hearts for your kind words, I thank you. To those who feel the need to speculate and type to hear themselves speak, I would suggest a grammar workshop. It’s hard to take legal advice from someone who cannot even seem to formulate a grammatically correct statement, punctuate or spell. True, it’s just a friendly forum, not a dissertation, but at least try.

To the moderators, and board administrators, I apologize. Feel free to lock this thread should you deem it necessary as many will feel the need to prove their belt buckle is bigger and have the last word; though it will likely be misspelled. They’re welcome to have it. You can all bash to your heart’s content as the bio guys have this under control now, I have updated my email to a no-reply address, and I’ll be signing out for the last time.

Stay safe everyone.

[Twisted Brick]

Then this one will make you laugh: https://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2013/11/ho ... jcaho.html

"Do they smoke?"

LMAO. Thanks for sharing.

[v-child]

Someone needs a hug and a "Hurt Feelings Report".