I know the turbos get a hard time, but why?

[LWTCS]

Yes - Sorry. That is my water temp leaving my still.... the T500. Agreed.

And, yep... maybe you are right, maybe my tastes will change.

Don't get me wrong... I am not saying any particular method is wrong. I am just trying to understand how things get to taste different, because I can't seem to get any taste difference (very little anyway), and understanding why, is what I am trying to do.

You will PoorBoy.
Just keep running.
Keep reading to develop your knowledge base and keep makin.
I highly recommend dialing in a single favorite recipe until your sensory awareness committee helps you decide what to think. Repeat that till you can do it in your sleep. Then you can move on.
Save a bit of keeper from each run and you'll see that within a year or so you'll have a much more evolved understanding.

[PoorBoyJack]

Yes - Sorry. That is my water temp leaving my still.... the T500. Agreed.

And, yep... maybe you are right, maybe my tastes will change.

Don't get me wrong... I am not saying any particular method is wrong. I am just trying to understand how things get to taste different, because I can't seem to get any taste difference (very little anyway), and understanding why, is what I am trying to do.

You will PoorBoy.
Just keep running.
Keep reading to develop your knowledge base and keep makin.
I highly recommend dialing in a single favorite recipe until your sensory awareness committee helps you decide what to think. Repeat that till you can do it in your sleep. Then you can move on.
Save a bit of keeper from each run and you'll see that within a year or so you'll have a much more evolved understanding.

Yep! Thanks man. I am still keen on trying new things, so not about to stop learning yet.

[NZChris]

I expect from reading your OP that you are using carbon and filters. Is that correct?

[PoorBoyJack]

I expect from reading your OP that you are using carbon and filters. Is that correct?

Yes and no. Yes, I use them in the Turbos, as I wanted to be true to the directions. So in the Turbo I used the Carbon, then the clear, and put it through a filter.

In the All Bran for example.... No Carbon, no Clear and No filter.

I am not that worried about cost - I am not on a budget, and I don't do this because I can't afford to buy commercial booze! It's simply a hobby!

[cranky]

PoorBoyJack, what exactly is your process? You aren't giving a lot of details. Are you doing any cuts? The way you are cutting and blending could account for why you can't tell the difference.

[NZChris]

Having to use AC to clean them up is probably the most obvious reason Turbo's get a hard time around here. A nice clean wash doesn't need it unless you don't know how to run a still and can't do decent cuts.

[PoorBoyJack]

PoorBoyJack, what exactly is your process? You aren't giving a lot of details. Are you doing any cuts? The way you are cutting and blending could account for why you can't tell the difference.

No! This is the T500. Drop the first 200ml, and run it till it ends.

When I first started, I could taste a slight difference between say the 2nd 200ml, and say 200ml section in the middle. Probably because of some left overs in the column of the undesirables. But once it's all blended and watered down to 40%, it all tastes good. It comes out at 92%.

So no cuts, no blending. Remove the 200ml and that's it!

The instructions say only remove the first 50ml, but it still had some nasty crap up until about 200, so that's what I do.

[PoorBoyJack]

Having to use AC to clean them up is probably the most obvious reason Turbo's get a hard time around here. A nice clean wash doesn't need it unless you don't know how to run a still and can't do decent cuts.

But again... are you talking pot still or reflux?

[Beerswimmer]

No! This is the T500. Drop the first 200ml, and run it till it ends.

So no cuts, no blending. Remove the 200ml and that's it!

The instructions say only remove the first 50ml

Wait, what???

[Corsaire]

Doesn't matter, you need to make cuts on any batch still, be it pot or reflux. No matter what reflux design.
Any given ferment will produce congeners that largely come over in different parts of the run.

Try it for yourself, collect in a number of small jars and smell and taste them. Decide what to keep using only your senses.
Don't be greedy, you can always make more.

[Saltbush Bill]

This is the T500. Drop the first 200ml, and run it till it ends.

The plot continues to thicken....no wonder it all tastes the same......no cuts and believing the rubbish that the T500 manufacturers tell you.
You have a steep learning curve ahead before you even begin to make half decent booze.
Best re read whats in the beginners section.
There is not a still on this earth that doesn't make crap booze without cuts being made.

[acfixer69]

++ SBB There is not a still on this earth that doesn't make crap booze without cuts being made.

[NZChris]

Having to use AC to clean them up is probably the most obvious reason Turbo's get a hard time around here. A nice clean wash doesn't need it unless you don't know how to run a still and can't do decent cuts.

But again... are you talking pot still or reflux?

I run both. I can get very good product from my pot still without have to clear, or AC filter, it. The reflux is even better.

[PoorBoyJack]

Sorry guys.... I am going to disagree with you!

The T500, run as per the manufacturer's instructions (as I have stated above) produces very good neutral! AND... it's not just my opinion. I have lots of mates who have tried it and all agree. In fact, we did a test where I lined up 4 commercial Vodka's and one of mine. NONE of them could pick mine from the line up! I am not crapping you on!

This is what I have been battling with! Everywhere I read - don't use Turbos. BUT when 6 or more people can't pick mine from a line up, then what the???

[PoorBoyJack]

Doesn't matter, you need to make cuts on any batch still, be it pot or reflux. No matter what reflux design.
Any given ferment will produce congeners that largely come over in different parts of the run.

Try it for yourself, collect in a number of small jars and smell and taste them. Decide what to keep using only your senses.
Don't be greedy, you can always make more.

Oh I have! The only difference I could taste was obviously in the first 200ml. That tasted like nail polish remover (as it should). Then I cut at every 200-300ml. The rest all tasted identical, right down to the last drops coming out of the still.

I even went so far as to water them all down individually and still could not taste much of a difference between any of them, except, as I said the 2nd 200ml, as it was probably still being influenced from the crap before.

If you have never played with a T500, then I don't know what to tell you! I am not here to sell it, or market it. I have no connection. I just bought one and well, can only tell you what is happening at my joint.

[PoorBoyJack]

Having to use AC to clean them up is probably the most obvious reason Turbo's get a hard time around here. A nice clean wash doesn't need it unless you don't know how to run a still and can't do decent cuts.

But again... are you talking pot still or reflux?

I run both. I can get very good product from my pot still without have to clear, or AC filter, it. The reflux is even better.

Yep! The product I get is bloody good! One of my mates last Saturday night drank my straight vodka (40%) over his $90 of commercially bought! Said he liked mine more. SO... what else can I go off! LOL!

I might try NOT clearing - and see what I get. No carbon no clear. That will be interesting.

[NZChris]

Commercial vodka nearly always has more heads than home distilled, so it's not a surprise your friends like yours better.

I gather you're telling us that your AC filtered Turbo is about as good as your unfiltered All Bran and you are happy to pay the extra. Or is there something else?

[PoorBoyJack]

Commercial vodka nearly always has more heads than home distilled, so it's not a surprise your friends like yours better.

I gather you're telling us that your AC filtered Turbo is about as good as your unfiltered All Bran and you are happy to pay the extra. Or is there something else?

No... Never said I was happy to pay more. I was asking why the turbos get such a hard time, if, from my experience, they get a similar result. That was all. Costs don't really play for me. I am not budget conscious. Just an observation as to why people are saying they are crap, but my experiments proved to me, they are both pretty much the same.

[NZChris]

They sound pretty much the same if you only have to AC filter one of them.

[Saltbush Bill]

It's very simple.....without clearing agents ,carbon filtering and other convoluted BS....one yeast makes shit booze and the other doesnt.
If you choose to do more work and spend more money to make a drinkable product.....while at the same time making your local HBS owner rich......then go right a head.

[jonnys_spirit]

Just an observation as to why people are saying they are crap, but my experiments proved to me, they are both pretty much the same.

Yep! The product I get is bloody good! One of my mates last Saturday night drank my straight vodka (40%) over his $90 of commercially bought! Said he liked mine more. SO... what else can I go off! LOL!

Was it the same or better?

You mean your buddy likes the free stuff better?

Hint - almost everybody loves free likker when you’re buying it.

Lol..

Good luck!
Cheers,
Jonny

[zed255]

I can't speak from personal experience from fermenting with a turbo, but I can speak about drinking booze made using it.

My old man, bless his heart, is so set in his ways using turbo yeast is all he does. When I picked up the hobby I went through the forum here and ended up developing my own recipe, no turbos for me. Both me and my old man bring booze up to hunt camp. My non-turbo booze is always drank over my old man's, except for the old man - he stubbornly drinks his own. There's a certain 'je ne sais quoi' about his I never liked that is absolutely not in mine.

The idea that I would need to use carbon and clearing agents and an AC filter after all the time and effort that goes into the rest of the process boggles the mind. I put in a little more effort up front in laying down a wash and don't need anything else. In fact, on of my hunt camp buddies asked if I'd do a batch for him, so I said sure if you do most of the leg work. Last night we put down 210l of wash in three fermenters over about 2 hours, ingredients prepared separately for each fermenter. Going like a scalded cat before I went to bed.

[Yummyrum]

I’ve kept out if this so far as I have already mentioned several times that I started the hobby with a reflux still and beginners Turbo starter pack from HBS

I did dozens of turbos , cleared and carbon filtered . Discarded the first 50mls and kept the rest up to 85°C

Thought it tasted bloody awesome . So did mrs Yummy . .:: and a few relo’s

Then I discovered HD and made my first Real reflux still that was capable of 95+%AVB . ..also discovered proper cuts .

Whoo . Suddenly Turbos had had risen to a new level . Compared to the measly 75%AVb from my HBS reflux still , I was mind blown and this new stuff was amazing , so I stopped the Carbon filtering as it seamed to make no difference .

Time went by and I finally made a TPW wash ( Bird watchers ) . At first I was disappointed . I was used to using 8kg of sugar per 23lwash and this stuff used only 5 kg /23l and as a result , my yield was down dramatically .

Fortunately I had half a Demi of Turbo left. . When I compared it to the new TPW I was amazed . The taste of the TPW was so clean . Never went back to Turbos again .

So these are my thoughts .

It takes a while to develop your taste buds as to what you are tasting .
It is Important to have a few samples of older stuff so you can compare with newer practices .
Always make comparisons at same tempered AVB .Somewhere around 30%avb is good .

Do comparisons on several different days ... some days, taste buds are more sensitive than others .

Incidentally , now days , my neutral washes are down to 4 kg /23L..... less sugar , happy yeast ... less stench

[StillerBoy]

Incidentally , now days , my neutral washes are down to 4 kg /23L..... less sugar , happy yeast ... less stench

That's where it's all at.. why does a beginner's fight this all the way.. and thereby retarding his advancement in the hobby..

An 8 - 9% abv sugar wash produces a good product, and a 7 - 8% abv wash is even better, along with properly managed ingredients and process.. yeah more work in stripping time, but not in the spirit run.. combine that low wine with an efficient reflux column unit and you have the mystery solved for a good finished product..

What beginner's don't get is all the junk that is created/produced by the yeast in a stressful environment.. commercially made product do not remove those item out of the liquor they produced.. but as a hobbyist, one can do that.. again, there it is time involve.. for some that not in their wanting to do..

Simple really.. but it takes years for beginner to accept that.. that comes down to two things.. if the beginner comes into the hobby with an attitude of really wanting to learn the hobby, he will progress forward.. if the attitude is just something to learn or do, then he will take forever to progress forward, never really understanding what the hobby is about or able to do..

Distilling is not difficult, but it required a good amount of time and discipline..

Mars

[Twisted Brick]

And, yep... maybe you are right, maybe my tastes will change.

Don't get me wrong... I am not saying any particular method is wrong. I am just trying to understand how things get to taste different, because I can't seem to get any taste difference (very little anyway), and understanding why, is what I am trying to do.

So if you're unhappy with the results that a suspect yeast, limited still and convoluted processes give you, shoulda said so in the first place. A good majority of stillers here seek the advice of the veterans on crafting flavor efficiently, but it requires a baseline of knowledge to ask. Now's your chance to iron out the wrinkles in your shed and the first issue has been spoonfed to you up front: change your yeast. Trust Yummyrum’s and zed255’s words – testing your Turbo Shine unfiltered will scream for you to also improve your ingredients and methods.

Simple really.. but it takes years for beginner to accept that.. that comes down to two things.. if the beginner comes into the hobby with an attitude of really wanting to learn the hobby, he will progress forward.. if the attitude is just something to learn or do, then he will take forever to progress forward, never really understanding what the hobby is about or able to do..

Distilling is not difficult, but it requires a good amount of time and discipline..

To be honest, there are no shortcuts to this hobby but the answers to your other issues are plentiful and available right here in the 'archives'. Pot still design and operation, proper mashing/fermentation, how to make cuts, and 100 other things. As you’re one of those ‘how does this work’ kind of guys who likes whiskey the reading should prove rewarding.

Good luck!

[cranky]

PoorBoyJack, what exactly is your process? You aren't giving a lot of details. Are you doing any cuts? The way you are cutting and blending could account for why you can't tell the difference.

No! This is the T500. Drop the first 200ml, and run it till it ends.

When I first started, I could taste a slight difference between say the 2nd 200ml, and say 200ml section in the middle. Probably because of some left overs in the column of the undesirables. But once it's all blended and watered down to 40%, it all tastes good. It comes out at 92%.

So no cuts, no blending. Remove the 200ml and that's it!

The instructions say only remove the first 50ml, but it still had some nasty crap up until about 200, so that's what I do.

OK I'm beginning to understand your process and why there is little difference.

92% brings a lot of flavor over. Are you doing a single run or stripping then spirit run? I would assume you are doing a stripping run first because a t500 only has a 6.6 gallon boiler.

200-300ml cuts from a 6 gallon charge of low wines is huge! 200-300ml cuts on a single run would be enormous! 200ml is about what I collect in when I do a 13-14 gallon run of low wines.

My advice is put some back that you make now and some day if you eventually decide to improve your setup and technique go back and try that bottle you will have answered your own question.

[kimbodious]

There’s a level of emotional investment with any other form of investment, particularly financial investment, buyers remorse comes later if at all.

Some people lay down a lot of money on an off the shelf system because they were led to believe it would end up to be a quick cheap and easy way to replace store bought liquor because the salesperson told them it would. Not only that but the product would be even better than store bought if they were to buy their yeasts and ingredients and filter aids and all the apparatus.

So they’ve ended up laying down lots and lots of money so by hook or by crook it is going to make the very best liquor because they’ve spent all this money to make sure it will.

What would some pseudonym on a forum know compared with the person they talked to face to face whose job it is everyday to sell everything (for making a profit)? .... oh wait.

Sound familiar? It certainly was the way for me. Buyers remorse was crushing for me, I could ill afford the money I spent at the time but I simply could not present my home-made liquor to family and friends, even after following all the instructions to the letter.

Thank goodness for forums like these and the generous and patient people who give the benefit of their knowledge and experience in considered responses and for no profit. For me, the rest is history!

[NZChris]

I feel lucky that I started before Youtube and the internet existed to confuse me.

It's been very nice getting new directions for research from the net and having access to PDFs of research material (some of which I already had), that was only available in places like university libraries, but at least I wasn't confronted by the barrage of information, misinformation and products, that is available to the newbie distiller who walks in the door of a HBS or is inspired by many of the 'new experts' on Youtube nowadays.

[Swedish Pride]

I like what you're doing here Jack, always question the status quo.
Good healthy discussion coming from it too, nice one

[zed255]

I'd be curious to experiment with a turbo yeast product, if for no other reason than to be able to truly speak intelligently about them.

I suspect if you used a turbo with a wash of reasonable SG (not pushing for the highest ABV attainable) and perhaps split the packet consummate with the reduction in sugar used (half the sugar, half the packet) the results might be much better than typical. The marketing wank surrounding turbo yeast products suggests pushing for maximal 'yield', but applying the product more judiciously may prove it is possible to get a decent product.

My only real objection is that I'd have to either order it online or find a local HBS that carries it, and the packets are not super cheap though not a bank breaker either. I think many here like the recipes that can be sourced from the local grocery for availability and discretion, or at least ingredients that can be explained as beer, mead, cider or wine from a local HBS. Turbo yeast really has only one application - a sugar wash - and that implies distillation, that alone is not terribly discreet.