Medicine taste in stilled rum

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Karooboy
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Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by Karooboy »

Hi guys So I did a 24l still run in my 30l pot still, madet cuts and bottled, coning out the still it was good but now it smells and tastes like ointment. The first batch I made with molasses was absolutely great, then I used some dunder for the second batch and this is the batch with medicine taste. Don't know what went wrong. Temp was good and ran it just like the first batch..

I also noticed this taste in my current fermenting batch.
Last edited by Karooboy on Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by NZChris »

Eucalyptus tree?
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by TDick »

more information needed.

If you were running a Tried & True, it's better to post it in that discussion thread.
If you WEREN'T running a T&T, just another example of why you should.

Doesn't guarantee you won't have a problem, but a helluva lot easier to solve when - I mean IF- you do.
For example, just 3 threads below this one is SBB Bill's All Molasses Rum.
almost 2 years old, been read over 23000 times with - as of today - 136 questions, answers or comments.

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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by OtisT »

One of the batches of rum I made using infected dunder came out smelling what several folks called medicinal. Not sure if that is what you are smelling. Kind of band aid like from what I recall. A strong and off smell and taste that after two years in a barrel still did not go away. I’ve made more than a handful of batches that way and that was the only one that came out like that. I don’t know why, exactly. I’m guessing the wrong infection produced the wrong acids and that made a bad Ester in large quantities. Was fun experimenting with infections but I stopped playing with infected dunder after a few ruined batches. Otis
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by still_stirrin »

Don’t know about a rum, but in beer this is the likely source of the aroma and flavors:
Phenolic flavors and aromas are often described as clove-like, medicinal, smoky, or “band-aid” and are considered off-flavors in most beer styles.

Beer always contains some form of phenol; polyphenols, such as tannins, are derived directly from hops and malt. Low levels of polyphenol can contribute to mouthfeel, whereas high levels can cause a drying, mouth-puckering astringency.

When a beer is described as phenolic, it is usually with reference to volatile phenols. Volatile phenols have low flavor and aroma thresholds and most people taste and smell them at very low concentrations, sometimes under 10 parts per billion. Although volatile phenols are generally not desirable, certain of these are sought after in particular beer types.

There are three main sources of volatile phenols: ingredients, chemical taints, and yeasts and bacteria.

Ingredients
The two brewing ingredients most likely to contribute volatile phenols are water and smoked malts. Although it should not, mains water may already contain phenols when entering the brewery. (Most countries specify a very low maximum level of phenols, including chlorophenols from added chlorine for mains water.) Breweries relying on their own water supply are typically more at risk of introducing phenols into the brewing process from this source. Once added, phenols will not be removed by the normal brewing process.

Rauchmalt is a type of malt dried over an open fire made with beechwood logs. It is a specialty of the Bavarian region of Franconia in Germany. Rauchmalt adds the phenols guaiacol and syringol. These give a beer a smoky aroma and taste, sometimes described as “campfire” or “barbecue potato chips.” These phenols are a distinguishing characteristic of rauchbier, a Bamberg speciality with powerfully smoky flavors. Craft brewers in the United States and other countries are experimenting with rauchmalt and creating interesting smoky beers that often pair well with food.

Peated malt is produced by smoking malt over burning peat. Although mainly used in the production of whiskey, some brewers are experimenting with peated malt for the resultant smoky, earthy phenols.

Chemical Taints
The main chemicals giving rise to volatile phenols are chlorine and bromine. These two chemicals combine with phenols (including polyphenols) already in the beer to create chlorophenols and bromophenols, respectively.

Chlorine is typically added to main water supplies and must be removed before the water can be used for brewing. Chlorine-based cleaners and sanitizers are very popular in breweries. Poor rinsing can result in chlorine contaminating the beer. Bromine can be introduced by packaging materials.

Chlorophenols and bromophenols are detectable at much lower concentrations than other phenols. Chlorophenols remind people of antiseptics or mouthwash, bromophenols of old television sets, hot Bakelite, or the smell of an electrical short. None of these characteristics is welcome in beer.

Yeasts and Bacteria
Most frequently, beers derive volatile phenols from yeasts or bacteria. 4-Vinyl guaiacol, known as 4VG, is a signature characteristic of Bavarian wheat beer (weizens) and many Belgian beers. Brewers manage their brewing processes and select yeasts known to produce this phenol. 4VG gives beers aromas and flavors described as being clove-like, spicy, or herbal and is considered desirable in these beers at certain levels.

Yeasts produce 4VG through the decarboxylation of ferulic acid. Brewers can increase the concentration of ferulic acid in wort by having a mash rest at 45°C (113°F) and by raising sparge liquor temperatures. Wheat malt and some barley varieties produce elevated ferulic acid levels. Higher fermentation temperatures also promote the production of 4VG. However, as these beers age, 4VG starts breaking down, giving a vanilla-like character and losing the 4VG signature.

A smaller subset of Belgian beers, including lambics, contains the phenol 4-ethylphenol (4-EP). This phenol is produced by the wild yeast type brettanomyces and it reminds people of farmyards, medicines, and mice. p-Coumaric acid, from malt, is the precursor to 4-vinylphenol, which in turn is the precursor to 4-EP. See brettanomyces.

Although 4VG, and to a lesser extent 4-EP, is expected in certain beer styles, in most it is not welcome and is seen as a fault. Brettanomyces also produces 4-ethylguaiacol, which gives beer smoked meat or clovey, spicy character. This phenol is largely unwelcome in beer; however, many craft brewers are experimenting with brettanomyces, especially in the production of sour and “wild” beer styles. Just as brettanomyces character in wine is usually considered a fault, but sometimes considered a desired “complexing agent,” so it is in beer. See sour beers.

Wort spoilage bacteria are those which change the flavor and aroma of beer at the start of fermentation, before the yeast establishes itself. Certain Gram-negative, indole-negative, short-rod, wort spoilage bacteria have been reported to produce a medicinal phenolic taste in the resultant beer. This is always unpleasant and can be a difficult problem for a brewery to eradicate once established.
from this source: https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/9Z95BHQHMb/
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by Yummyrum »

OtisT wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:36 pm One of the batches of rum I made using infected dunder came out smelling what several folks called medicinal. Not sure if that is what you are smelling. Kind of band aid like from what I recall. A strong and off smell and taste that after two years in a barrel still did not go away. I’ve made more than a handful of batches that way and that was the only one that came out like that. I don’t know why, exactly. I’m guessing the wrong infection produced the wrong acids and that made a bad Ester in large quantities. Was fun experimenting with infections but I stopped playing with infected dunder after a few ruined batches. Otis
Otis that is interesting, ... you say Bandaid like , ... thank you, ... you just nailed the smell/taste I have had from two bad Rums. I was never able to put a name to it before now . :thumbup:
Incidentally , i was never able to remove the “Bandaid “ from the first one ... lord knows I dried aging , redistilling , aging some more , even tried refluxing ... but the stench remained .
So when the second one occured (it was obviously present in the strip) , I just Dumped it all , not something I do lightly
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

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Yummyrum wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:37 am Incidentally , i was never able to remove the “Bandaid “ from the first one ... lord knows I dried aging , redistilling , aging some more , even tried refluxing ... but the stench remained .
I've never had bandaid flavor but have had a few off-flavored batches that I used to experiment with fischer-speier esterification. But that's had its own mixed success, I took a batch of highly butyric puke-whiskey and turned it into fruity pineapple-whiskey which is just weird, even after a chunk of time on oak. BUT I haven't tried making any tropical whiskey - might really shine in a pineapple whiskey sour.

ANYWAY I digress but I think any funky batch is worth a fischer-speier over dumping (at least the first time), but you need sulfuric acid and a reflux rig to drive the reaction.
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by Karooboy »

Yeah a band aid and germoline ointment smell. The very first batch was awesome, then i used dunder in the following batches and this smell occurred, thing is I've got 120l of wash fermenting with dunder from previous batch. How do I Determine if sunder is infected before using it.
Last edited by Karooboy on Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

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Any suggestions on saving these batches will be greatly appreciated
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by Karooboy »

Yummyrum wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:37 am
OtisT wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:36 pm One of the batches of rum I made using infected dunder came out smelling what several folks called medicinal. Not sure if that is what you are smelling. Kind of band aid like from what I recall. A strong and off smell and taste that after two years in a barrel still did not go away. I’ve made more than a handful of batches that way and that was the only one that came out like that. I don’t know why, exactly. I’m guessing the wrong infection produced the wrong acids and that made a bad Ester in large quantities. Was fun experimenting with infections but I stopped playing with infected dunder after a few ruined batches. Otis
Otis that is interesting, ... you say Bandaid like , ... thank you, ... you just nailed the smell/taste I have had from two bad Rums. I was never able to put a name to it before now . :thumbup:
Incidentally , i was never able to remove the “Bandaid “ from the first one ... lord knows I dried aging , redistilling , aging some more , even tried refluxing ... but the stench remained .
So when the second one occured (it was obviously present in the strip) , I just Dumped it all , not something I do lightly
So I used fresh dunder so still don't know where smell comes from
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by MartinCash »

Perhaps your source of molasses? Which brand are you using and have you had any successful runs with it?
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by Setsumi »

for your current ferment, try to adjust pH upwards with chauck or shells. it might be too late but may be worth a try.
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by NZChris »

Smell and taste everything to try to find out where the off flavour came from. If it's in the molasses, get different molasses, dunder, don't use that dunder, etc..

If it was only after the ferment, what changes did you make?

Where was this off smell during the run?
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by SaltyStaves »

Karooboy wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:26 pmI did a 24l still run in my 30l pot still
I read your introduction post and you don't seem to know what a pot still is.
It might help to clarify what type of still you are running and how you are running it.
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by still_stirrin »

Karooboy wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:31 am...So I used fresh dunder, so still don't know where smell comes from...
This might be a clue:
...Wort spoilage bacteria are those which change the flavor and aroma of beer at the start of fermentation, before the yeast establishes itself. Certain Gram-negative, indole-negative, short-rod, wort spoilage bacteria have been reported to produce a medicinal phenolic taste in the resultant beer. This is always unpleasant and can be a difficult problem for a brewery to eradicate once established.
If your dunder is the source, then you may have a problem with your brewery processes, ie - how you store your “fresh dunder”.

Was there a long lag between the time you filled the fermenter and active yeast fermentation? Did you aerate the wash prior to pitching yeast?
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by Karooboy »

So I've tasted the wash which has been fermenting for about 12 days now, I tasted it and could taste a hint of this medicine taste. Wash was air rated prior to pitching yeast, the molasses we've used is 25l molatek. So I'm thinking the dunder we had in jars from previous run several weeks prior might be the issue.
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

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Thanks for the pm Karooboy. Now that it is established that you are running a packed pot still, my question is, did you strip this and do a spirit run, or did you do a 'one-and-done'?

I've never found anything worth drinking from a first pass rum through my pot still. In fact, my first rum had a fermentation fault and the low wines tasted vegetal and metallic. I voiced my concern with the taste and someone wiser told me not to concern myself with how the low wines taste. Sure enough, the spirit run cleaned it up and I still have the same rum on oak (which recently turned 4YO).
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

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still_stirrin wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:27 am This might be a clue:
...Wort spoilage bacteria are those which change the flavor and aroma of beer at the start of fermentation, before the yeast establishes itself. Certain Gram-negative, indole-negative, short-rod, wort spoilage bacteria have been reported to produce a medicinal phenolic taste in the resultant beer. This is always unpleasant and can be a difficult problem for a brewery to eradicate once established.
I think you might be right SS.

The last time it happened , I had the same molasses , same dunder all mixed together and split into two identical fermenters . I then shared a can of yeast equally between them .
One took off as quickly as it normally should , the other did not . It was slow and took about a week longer to ferment . This latter one smelled medicinal and as soon as I started ti strip it I recognised the dreaded smell that I was never able to remove the last time .

So I would agree that it was probably due to some infestation in one my fermenters .
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

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SaltyStaves wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:15 pm Thanks for the pm Karooboy. Now that it is established that you are running a packed pot still, my question is, did you strip this and do a spirit run, or did you do a 'one-and-done'?

I've never found anything worth drinking from a first pass rum through my pot still. In fact, my first rum had a fermentation fault and the low wines tasted vegetal and metallic. I voiced my concern with the taste and someone wiser told me not to concern myself with how the low wines taste. Sure enough, the spirit run cleaned it up and I still have the same rum on oak (which recently turned 4YO).
No strip run just a straight forward still run, will I not lose alot of the aroma if I do a strip run first
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by Tummydoc »

If you like inferior liquor, keep doing a single distillation. But none of us would try to pass a single pot run as palatable to our friends. You need a plated column and reflux for a single run. Yes you'll lose flavors on the stripping run....the bad flavors!
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by Hambone »

Karooboy wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:44 am
SaltyStaves wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:15 pm Thanks for the pm Karooboy. Now that it is established that you are running a packed pot still, my question is, did you strip this and do a spirit run, or did you do a 'one-and-done'?

I've never found anything worth drinking from a first pass rum through my pot still. In fact, my first rum had a fermentation fault and the low wines tasted vegetal and metallic. I voiced my concern with the taste and someone wiser told me not to concern myself with how the low wines taste. Sure enough, the spirit run cleaned it up and I still have the same rum on oak (which recently turned 4YO).
No strip run just a straight forward still run, will I not lose alot of the aroma if I do a strip run first
You mean lose aroma, like a bandaid aroma? We can only hope....
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by kiwi Bruce »

Karooboy, does it taste anything like laphroaig Single Malt ? (hoping you've had a chance to try some...of course)
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

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Ardbeg??
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

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Yep, I just got this on a rum I did today. Not quite 'medicinal', but it leaves this lingering, stale, bandaid type taste in the mouth that i'm struggling to put my finger on. It doesn't seem to disappear off the palate. The initial forward facing rum flavours are quite nice, even straight off the still, but the after-taste is bad and based on what i've read above, this batch might be destined for the drain.

The difference this time was I added some infected dunder, 2L to the fermentation about a week after it had started and left it for 2 weeks, then I added another 1L to the kettle before running.
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by Yummyrum »

RJB , maybe you are right ... its from infected Dunder .
Infection seems to be a common theme .
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

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RJB510 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:13 am ....this batch might be destined for the drain....
Age it.
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by RJB510 »

RJB , maybe you are right ... its from infected Dunder .
Infection seems to be a common theme .
Yeah I think so too. I'm guessing that you've had some failed batches also? I'm keen to hear what you think in terms of tastes and if they have subdued with age?

I've always added straight backset but decided to try my recipe using buccaneer style using infected dunder this time... smelt incredible before going into the still but the after taste has this lingering taste that isn't right. When I think about it, it would probably be acceptable for a mixer in coke but won't turn into a sipping rum I don't think.
NZChris wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 1:32 am
RJB510 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:13 am ....this batch might be destined for the drain....
Age it.
Yep! I always age my rum. I think this will be the batch that stays on the back shelf aging and I'll periodically try it to see if it starts to taste nice.
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by Setsumi »

and that is why i do not like rum... the medicinal taste. and i do not like mixing my tipple with coke. and rum put me in fighting mood.... try and spice it up for a spiced rum, it may mellow the band aidc taste.
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

Post by Yummyrum »

If its the bandaid taste I’ve experienced a few times , seems no amount of ageing will fix it .
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Re: Medicine taste in stilled rum

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Yummyrum wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:25 am If its the bandaid taste I’ve experienced a few times , seems no amount of ageing will fix it .
You need to give up chewing bandages.

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