Ashy smell to my UJSSM Gen 4 wash

[SirLucian]

I'm on gen4 of my UJSSM and I'm excited to run it. My ferments are a little slow, but I'm not really in a hurry, this one is going on 1 week now, starting at 1.064. It seems to be getting really slow though, currently at 1.030. I'll check it tomorrow to see how it's moving. but this isn't really what concerns me. It's the strange aroma.

I'm really not sure how best to describe this smell, but I'd say... ashtray?

What on earth can be causing this? Also, it's unusually murky... I really hope it's salvageable.

Any ideas?

Further details on my process - each gen gets 6l of backset per 25l bucket, I recon that is like 25%, as the corn takes up a fair amount of space in there and I don't fill it to the brim. I have generally followed instructions, but it's never fermented dry so far through any generations, usually I run it once it gets to 1.000 because I just get tired of waiting.

My average temperature is maintained using an electric blanket underneath and a duvet thrown on top, as I have a few different projects running at any one time and this just seemed the most cost effective, albeit not most precise, way of controlling the temperature across 4-6 buckets. The temperature varies between 24degrees and 30degrees C.

I have not added oyster shells and don't have an accurate way to gauge my PH. Using PH strips never seemed very conclusive to me and I don't have a digital PH meter yet. Getting any gear in South Africa is a mission at the moment because of corona virus

[NZChris]

That's a lot of backset if you are planning on indefinite generations.

PH strips are accurate enough to tell you if you are heading for trouble.

There's nothing special about oyster shells, any shells, even marble, will do, but they are better used to prevent pH crashes than for fixing them when you are already in trouble.

[SirLucian]

Thank you. I did go on the higher end of the backset scale to try expidite the process to a more interesting product. I realised this would drop my PH but never assumed it would happen after just 3 generations.

I will try that old oyster shell trick. Thus far I was concerned that it would take away from the "sour" nature of the "mash"/wash.

I have a bunch of sea shells around here somewhere... actually I have chickens, can I use egg shells considering they are also mostly calcium? I'm probably not yet in trouble as my wash is still fermenting, as indicated by my +-1.025 gravity reading as of now, about 14h later.

I think the ashy smell might just have been psychosomatic result of breathing in almost pure CO2 when opening the bucket. but it definitely doesn't have that sweet buttery smell of previous generation.

Thank you for the reply. I appreciate it

[SirLucian]

I found another post saying yes to egg shells.

[SirLucian]

On further research, I now see what you mean by PH crash. it's the initial ph crash from the first 24h or so... not for recovery. Can this hack be used to get my wash back in action a little?

I can't find my litmus paper to check it out right now :/

[Saltbush Bill]

UJSM shouldnt suffer PH crashes.....if you stick to the recipes and use appropriate amounts of backset.
Throwing a few egg shells in wont hurt it though.

[LWTCS]

Wondering if the "ash" note is actually sulfur....

[NZChris]

Shells in my UJSSM usually lose a fair bit of weight, but in my brandy they gain weight from a crystalline deposit that forms on them, pH is stable in both, so I see them as good insurance if they are needed and harmless if they aren't, as long as you don't use far too much, or leave them in after the ferment is finished.

[SirLucian]

Let me give it another sniff and a probe with the good old hydrometer...

I don't think it is sulfur, it's more like old cigarette butts... oh well, we will see how it runs when it's done in... a week? it's definitely quite slow now as it's still above 1.020

Anyway, I've thrown in some sea shells and some tomato paste to try help it out, as my patience is a limited resource when this is taking up valuable real estate in my room

I'll update everyone on the results when I run it.

[still_stirrin]

...I don't think it is sulfur, it's more like old cigarette butts... oh well, we will see how it runs when it's done in... a week? it's definitely quite slow now as it's still above 1.020...

This sounds like phenolics to me. I’ve had ferments that did this before, which resulted in a “smokey” or “dirty sweat socks” smell (and taste too, unfortunately). The problem occurs from inadequate aeration prior to pitching yeast such that bacteria infection occurs ahead of the yeast innoculation, including a long lag before the start of fermentation. And it often behaves the way you describe....very slow potential reduction and long ferments. And it does not reduce itself as time progresses. And the worst part, you’ll get minimal alcohol out of the beer at the end.

The solution (not a “repair”) is to make sure you provide plenty of oxygen to the wort and pitch a healthy culture of yeast. Lazy and sloppy practices will continue to jeopardize your products, so it’s time to “clean up your act”.

As for this ferment, the current “ashtray” ferment....it may not be salvageable other than to learn your lesson. Sure, go ahead and run it...what can it hurt? But don’t be surprised if the product is not very good. And your yield surprisingly low too.

Good luck.
ss

[SirLucian]

as long as you don't use far too much, or leave them in after the ferment is finished.

You mean replace the shells between generations? good thing I read this twice

[SirLucian]

...I don't think it is sulfur, it's more like old cigarette butts... oh well, we will see how it runs when it's done in... a week? it's definitely quite slow now as it's still above 1.020...

This sounds like phenolics to me. I’ve had ferments that did this before, which resulted in a “smokey” or “dirty sweat socks” smell (and taste too, unfortunately). The problem occurs from inadequate aeration prior to pitching yeast such that bacteria infection occurs ahead of the yeast innoculation, including a long lag before the start of fermentation. And it often behaves the way you describe....very slow potential reduction and long ferments. And it does not reduce itself as time progresses. And the worst part, you’ll get minimal alcohol out of the beer at the end.

The solution (not a “repair”) is to make sure you provide plenty of oxygen to the wort and pitch a healthy culture of yeast. Lazy and sloppy practices will continue to jeopardize your products, so it’s time to “clean up your act”.

As for this ferment, the current “ashtray” ferment....it may not be salvageable other than to learn your lesson. Sure, go ahead and run it...what can it hurt? But don’t be surprised if the product is not very good. And your yield surprisingly low too.

Good luck.
ss

Oh nose! okay. makes sense. thanks... We live and learn eh

[SirLucian]

So here is a question, so I don't have to start from scratch with this gen... can I use the backset from this in a new one? surely all bacteria would be dead from the heat of the distilling.. Then I can just move forwards rather than starting again with gen 1. if that is the case, I'll run it prematurely this week even. no point waiting for bad results.

Also, how does the yield decrease? are these buggers eating away my alcohol?!

*edit* I realise it's more likely the bacteria is consuming my sugar instead of the yeast doing the job

[jonnys_spirit]

I'd ditch it and start over. SS is suggesting that the yeast were in a low O2 environment and perhaps a bacteria was able to gain a foothold producing objectionable components. Perhaps start up another ferment to test that theory though and let us know how it turns out.

Cheers!
-jonny

[SirLucian]

Yeah, we shall see what happens... I chucked the dregs left in a bucket from a previous birdwatchers that i'm running today. I have little hope of it fixing the problem, but i'm too attached to it to just throw it all down the drain I will probably distill and use it as firelighter if it's trash.

I did notice the corn having a little bit of darker looking stuff on it before I started up this generation.

[NZChris]

as long as you don't use far too much, or leave them in after the ferment is finished.

You mean replace the shells between generations? good thing I read this twice

Leaving excess Calcium Carbonate in a dead wash can cause the pH to rise high enough to make some really nasty smells that would have you kicking the can over. If there is any chance that you might not be able to distill your wash in a timely manner, you should remove any shells/marble/whatever. Hanging them in a string bag or a basket works quite well, because it makes it easy to take them out if something happens that means you have to put off stripping.

I usually check the weight after each ferment and record how much was lost and the pHs during the ferment. This becomes my guide for how to use them.

[SirLucian]

fantastic info. thank you all

[SirLucian]

So, I have some amazing news:

After adding the left over yeast and what not from birdwatchers bucket to my dodgey UJSSM, it has turned yellow instead of brown, and smells much healthier I think. I kept one of my two dodgey ahsy smelling buckets as it was for an AB test and the difference is real in smell and appearance.

As far as gravity goes it is early days, but the future seems bright, it seems to be dropping quicker with the influx of a new yeast culture. I'll update you on the reading when it's been 24h but it is now below 1.020 and looks more active and healthy in general.


As for why these results seem to be working, I have a theory that the old yeast was suffering and maybe dying out (or going to sleep). this new healthy yeast is ready to take on this infection and work towards something good. I'll keep my fingers crossed that this sorts me out, and I'll keep you updated when there is new news

[SirLucian]

Since this morning less than 12h ago, my SG has dropped to 1.010 which is more than I could ever have anticipated. Looks like this project might be salvageable!

[bilgriss]

A have smelled ash from a very light scorch. If your pH crashed and the ferment stalled with enough residual sugar left in it, you may have had a little of this dread ailment. If it's not enough to be objectionable, you might blend. Consider using less backset on future generations, or use a good pH buffer.

[SirLucian]

that is a fair point. if there was a little scortch in the wash, that may also have been it. I never considered that. However, the last stripping run doesn't smell or taste scortched (and I've had it before so I'm familiar with the taste/smell)

I will be using a PH buffer next round, and less backset. gonna run this tomorrow. It's settled at just under 1.000 so... basically done I guess. it's been a few days at 1.000 now. I'm not gonna wait any longer.

I'll see if there is anything funky going on with the corn, but the wash smells good now, I think. I just brushed my teeth though, so can't trust my nose completely at the moment.

[SirLucian]

Success. Ran it today, from the 40+l I got 8l out of the stripping run before turning it off. Don't have a spirit hydrometer to accurately gauge the yield, but this is my standard take on 2 buckets, so I'm satisfied.

Spirit tastes as good as usual for the low wines. Kinda as if there was nothing wrong - so I'm glad I didn't toss it.

I am a little wary of making gen 5 with all this fear of the infection (even if it seems to have worked out here), so I sterilised a bucket and have put the backset in there until I figure out what I'm going to do. I could use some advice though:

1. Sterilise 2 buckets, start with fresh corn, and sugar and yeast and add backset from this generation 4?

2. Go right ahead and use these potentially infected buckets for gen 5, including corn and whatever else is in there?

3. Start over completely from Gen 1 this time having learned from previous lessons?

Basically, I'm not sure (if there was an infection) if it can be beat, will go away with healthy yeast or what... also, How long can my backset sit in a bucket while I decide? same for my old corn/yeast leftovers from gen 4?