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Reflux And Tails

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:36 pm
by ravi
Hello,
Hope all are fit and fine!

I am new to this hobby and recently completed four runs of different differnt product: rice liquor, Banana brandy, mix fruit brandy(apple ,pine apple, ginger beer) & Bourbon style(going on!).
I have modular 2" reflux still with 25 liters electric boiler. column can be use in pot still and reflux both mode easily. So far all things i run in pot still mode with little bit of copper packing. ABV is coming out around 70-80%. I am almost kind of satisfied and also little bit got the idea when things changing to head, heart & tails.
Just to test the reflux condenser one day during the run i started the reflux condenser in between the mixed fruit brandy run. Playing with it))) i opened the reflux condenser water supply valve to full flow and established full reflux for some time. Then i crack open valve to some where mid way and dripping start from the product condenser. I was so amazed and exited to see the ABV shoots to above 90%!!!!!.Then the question came to my mind :?:

Question: If i am running some whiskey or brandy something like that in pot still mode with reflux condenser not in working during the run untill I entered in to Tails. when the tail starts at that time, if i start my reflux condenser. Can I Ramp up tha ABV and get rid of nasty smell to some Far extent. So that the heart range will increase up with some flavours too????

Apologise, if i asked some silly question :roll:

Thanks in Advance!!
Ravi

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:14 am
by still_stirrin
ravi wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:36 pmQuestion: If i am running some whiskey or brandy something like that in pot still mode with reflux condenser not in working during the run untill I entered in to Tails. when the tail starts at that time, if i start my reflux condenser. Can I Ramp up tha ABV and get rid of nasty smell to some Far extent. So that the heart range will increase up with some flavours too????
Ravi,
That’s an interesting question. I am not aware of much, if any discussion of using this “potstill to reflux” method during a full flavored spirit run to extract additional “hearts” from “tails”. Certainly I’ve never tried this. Instead, I simply rerun the tails (another distillation) through the potstill to salvage any “goodness” from the “ass end” of the run.

I know that a reflux column will compress the backend, allowing you to extract the hearts longer. Extrapolating this phenomenon, you should be able to push the stinky tails closer to power down while squeezing a bit more of the late hearts to your collection.

Try it and report your observation.
ss

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:25 am
by StillerBoy
ravi wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:36 pm Question: If i am running some whiskey or brandy something like that in pot still mode with reflux condenser not in working during the run untill I entered in to Tails. when the tail starts at that time, if i start my reflux condenser. Can I Ramp up tha ABV and get rid of nasty smell to some Far extent. So that the heart range will increase up with some flavours too????
I'm assuming here, but to compress the tails, in a reflux mode setup, some form of packing is required for the vapors to reflux..

To answer the question as to increasing the heart range.. yes to some extend the body and flavor.. it's called operating a reflux column in hybrid mode..

In a refllux column setup with packing, one starts the run refluxing for a 15 - 20 period as this will compress the heads, the extraction of the heads is done at a slow rate of take off, like a 100ml per 12 min.. once out of the head section, the mode of extraction is changed to pot mode.. meaning using less power and openning the take off rate wide open, and the take rate is now controlled by the amount of power used, the same as if it was a pot run.. as the tails start to arrive, you now switch back to reflux mode setting again, and compress the early tails..

Mars

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:43 pm
by ravi
still_stirrin wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:14 am
ravi wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:36 pmQuestion: If i am running some whiskey or brandy something like that in pot still mode with reflux condenser not in working during the run untill I entered in to Tails. when the tail starts at that time, if i start my reflux condenser. Can I Ramp up tha ABV and get rid of nasty smell to some Far extent. So that the heart range will increase up with some flavours too????
Ravi,
That’s an interesting question. I am not aware of much, if any discussion of using this “potstill to reflux” method during a full flavored spirit run to extract additional “hearts” from “tails”. Certainly I’ve never tried this. Instead, I simply rerun the tails (another distillation) through the potstill to salvage any “goodness” from the “ass end” of the run.

I know that a reflux column will compress the backend, allowing you to extract the hearts longer. Extrapolating this phenomenon, you should be able to push the stinky tails closer to power down while squeezing a bit more of the late hearts to your collection.

Try it and report your observation.
ss
Thanks for reply :thumbup:
I will surly try and present what every will be observation.
cheers

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:45 pm
by ravi
StillerBoy wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:25 am
ravi wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:36 pm Question: If i am running some whiskey or brandy something like that in pot still mode with reflux condenser not in working during the run untill I entered in to Tails. when the tail starts at that time, if i start my reflux condenser. Can I Ramp up tha ABV and get rid of nasty smell to some Far extent. So that the heart range will increase up with some flavours too????
I'm assuming here, but to compress the tails, in a reflux mode setup, some form of packing is required for the vapors to reflux..

To answer the question as to increasing the heart range.. yes to some extend the body and flavor.. it's called operating a reflux column in hybrid mode..

In a refllux column setup with packing, one starts the run refluxing for a 15 - 20 period as this will compress the heads, the extraction of the heads is done at a slow rate of take off, like a 100ml per 12 min.. once out of the head section, the mode of extraction is changed to pot mode.. meaning using less power and openning the take off rate wide open, and the take rate is now controlled by the amount of power used, the same as if it was a pot run.. as the tails start to arrive, you now switch back to reflux mode setting again, and compress the early tails..

Mars
Hello,

I came to know from your reply that i bought a hybrid still :P.....i will surly try hybrid operation in next run.

cheers,
ravi

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:37 pm
by charcoal
Yours is not a hybrid still. Yours is a modular still. It can be changed to a huge number of configurations.

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:06 pm
by ravi
charcoal wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:37 pm Yours is not a hybrid still. Yours is a modular still. It can be changed to a huge number of configurations.
oh really!!!
can you tell me how many?
thanks

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:29 pm
by charcoal
Pot still, VM still, CCVM, LM, LMVM combo, you already have a CM anyway. You can buy heads for that on ebay/amazon/aliexpress etc.

You can add Gin baskets, Sight glasses, Parrots, Bubble plates etc as well.

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:18 pm
by ravi
charcoal wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:29 pm Pot still, VM still, CCVM, LM, LMVM combo, you already have a CM anyway. You can buy heads for that on ebay/amazon/aliexpress etc.

You can add Gin baskets, Sight glasses, Parrots, Bubble plates etc as well.
cool!!
thanks a lot for info

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:22 pm
by Saltbush Bill
Can we see a photo of this still ..or have a link to one exactly the same ?

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:10 pm
by ravi
Saltbush Bill wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:22 pm Can we see a photo of this still ..or have a link to one exactly the same ?
sure i will update realy photo next week..i am going to still some holy water next weekend :D

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:00 pm
by RJB510
Digging this back up because i can offer some advice on this.

I use a LM still and charge the boiler with a clean wash. I.e. the sediment has settled out.
I add about 3-5 scrubbers in the column and bring the still to temp. Once there, i drop the power back to about half and go to full reflux and stack the column then draw off the fores and heads. They pull off at a good 90% ish.

Once that is done, and the solventy sting is removed, i drop the power down low and close off the reflux valve to collect the hearts, like a pot still, on a thin stream. They start to come off from 80% and i'll collect down to about 55% when tails start to come in, or at about 95 degrees at the vapour temp as a guide.

At that point, i'll open the reflux valve again and increase the power, this will begin compressing the tails and stacking the column again. The abv will increase to about 70% or higher and the temp at the still head will also drop down to the low 80's. i'll keep collecting like this until it slows to a point that it isn't worth collecting. I generally slowly increase the reflux ratio or boiler power to achieve this. I haven't settled on a preferred method to stack the tails yet.

I do one run, single wash and end up with a really clean hearts cut and limited tails with a very nice flavour carryover. I've done whisky and rum this way with great results.

What i did find though, was late compressed tails are high in abv, and whilst they still brought across flavour, there is a hint of the smell and taste associated with a tails run, so it doesn't eliminate it entirely, though i suspect that is where a CM still will shine as opposed to an LM.

Though, in my opinion, doing it this way is a good alternative with many advantages over a traditional pot still and distilling techniques to get a great flavourful product.

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:42 am
by Ratbastrd
RJB510 wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:00 pm i'll collect down to about 55% when tails start to come in, or at about 95 degrees at the vapour temp as a guide.

At that point, i'll open the reflux valve again and increase the power, this will begin compressing the tails and stacking the column again. The abv will increase to about 70% or higher and the temp at the still head will also drop down to the low 80's.....

What i did find though, was late compressed tails are high in abv, and whilst they still brought across flavour, there is a hint of the smell and taste associated with a tails run, so it doesn't eliminate it entirely, though i suspect that is where a CM still will shine as opposed to an LM.

Though, in my opinion, doing it this way is a good alternative with many advantages over a traditional pot still and distilling techniques to get a great flavourful product.
I'm curious if there is a term for this? Out of curiosity I did the same thing yesterday on a trial run with my new bubble plate setup. I was a cut or two into the tails and was watching the ABV drop. Cranked up the defleg, cutting off the flow and let it percolate for about 20 min. When I turned down the defleg and let it run again nearly all of the tails smell was gone and the ABV had jumped up considerably.

This tells me I'm leaving a lot of alcohol in the boiler, would like to learn more about this, can anyone point me to a term or where I can find info on this, been searching all morning this is the first post that seems to discuss the topic.

Thanks!

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:51 am
by Salt Must Flow
If you use a reflux column with no reflux (treat it just like a pot still) with a flavored spirits, once you're satisfied with your run you can certainly turn on reflux and remove all of the remaining alcohol. Toss that into a feints container to do an all feints run in the future or add it to what was stripped earlier.

I've done this often with my neutral stripping runs. I strip in pot mode until my total collected product is 40% ABV then I attach my reflux condenser and take the remaining alcohol. Whenever I do this I end up with a 25% increase in product after cuts.

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:29 am
by StillerBoy
Ratbastrd wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:42 am Cranked up the defleg, cutting off the flow and let it percolate for about 20 min. When I turned down the defleg and let it run again nearly all of the tails smell was gone and the ABV had jumped up considerably.

First you need to review what happen while a spirit run is being done, especially the how and why the sections come off as they do and when, alcohol depletion during a run.. what you experience is what is called "compressing", meaning tails being the later part of the extraction of the run, and carrying more water, which by refluxing and slowing the take off rate, in effect compress the alcohol (tails) whereby leaving some of the water behind, and increasing the ABV of the distillate at the spout..
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11640

This tells me I'm leaving a lot of alcohol in the boiler, would like to learn more about this, can anyone point me to a term or where I can find info on this, been searching all morning this is the first post that seems to discuss the topic.
Your not really leaving alcohol behind because its been compressed, giving the effect that there would be more alcohol..
Running a reflux column in hybrid mode, as already been explain earlier, but somehow misunderstood, in part for lack of understanding what is happening during a spirit in relationship the alcohol depletion.. running hybrid mode is simple, it calls for the operation of the heads section to be done in reflux state (compressing), converting to pot still mode operation for the body section (no compressing), and converting back to reflux state for the tails section.. and also using a shorten column (like 24") and using packing that has less reflux abilities (like marbles)..

And compressing of tails is best done using an LM style unit, but can be done with the other style but are less efficient..

Mars

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:11 pm
by Ratbastrd
Thanks, reading on this now.

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:37 pm
by NZChris
Salt Must Flow wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:51 am If you use a reflux column with no reflux (treat it just like a pot still) with a flavored spirits, once you're satisfied with your run you can certainly turn on reflux and remove all of the remaining alcohol. Toss that into a feints container to do an all feints run in the future or add it to what was stripped earlier.
I wouldn't recommend taking that advice to an extreme. Methanol does concentrate in the tails, so it's possibly not safe to continually re-run tails of tails. It's not an experiment that I'm going to do for everyone. I dump my tails from my reflux still and from any product that has been through my pot several times.

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:46 am
by Saltbush Bill
You can or could do the same using a plated column/ Flute......run reflux/ loaded plates to compress fores and heads, turn water to deflegmator off for hearts ,,,,,run by power management , then when tails show kick the reflux back in to load plates, that will hold tails back so that you can wring all of the goodness out of the wash.
As with most things distilling there is more than one way to skin the cat.
NZChris wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:37 pm it's possibly not safe to continually re-run tails of tails. It's not an experiment that I'm going to do for everyone.
No need Chris , Ive done it for you , been running the same heads and tails from Rum and UJ washes through my 4 plate column for years now......beyond the first few runs I don't see any accumulation of either.......and I'm still here.
Cant say for a pot still because they dont compress things as much and I don't run a pot that often

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:00 am
by Salt Must Flow
NZChris wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:37 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:51 am If you use a reflux column with no reflux (treat it just like a pot still) with a flavored spirits, once you're satisfied with your run you can certainly turn on reflux and remove all of the remaining alcohol. Toss that into a feints container to do an all feints run in the future or add it to what was stripped earlier.
I wouldn't recommend taking that advice to an extreme. Methanol does concentrate in the tails, so it's possibly not safe to continually re-run tails of tails. It's not an experiment that I'm going to do for everyone. I dump my tails from my reflux still and from any product that has been through my pot several times.
At the end of a stripping run, I see no safety concerns about removing the remaining ethanol (3% ABV) using a reflux column. I dilute low wines and do a spirit run with reflux column. After completing a spirit run there's virtually no ethanol left in the boiler (>1% ABV).

After making cuts from this spirit run, are you claiming it is potentially unsafe to keep THESE feints?

I would never keep feints from an 'all feints run' unless it will be used for fire starter, solvent, cleaner, etc...

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:59 am
by StillerBoy
Salt Must Flow wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:00 am At the end of a stripping run, I see no safety concerns about removing the remaining ethanol (3% ABV) using a reflux column. I dilute low wines and do a spirit run with reflux column. After completing a spirit run there's virtually no ethanol left in the boiler (>1% ABV).
Why would you chase to last 3% in a stripping run, as they are mostly tails, and have no value in the spirit..
On a stripping run of neutral I stopping the run when it hits 50% overall average, and there's still lots of tails yet in the spirit run..
I'm not in the hobby to chase every last drop, I'm in it for best of the body section, both flavor and neutral..

Mars

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:15 am
by Salt Must Flow
StillerBoy wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:59 am
Salt Must Flow wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:00 am At the end of a stripping run, I see no safety concerns about removing the remaining ethanol (3% ABV) using a reflux column. I dilute low wines and do a spirit run with reflux column. After completing a spirit run there's virtually no ethanol left in the boiler (>1% ABV).
Why would you chase to last 3% in a stripping run, as they are mostly tails, and have no value in the spirit..
On a stripping run of neutral I stopping the run when it hits 50% overall average, and there's still lots of tails yet in the spirit run..
I'm not in the hobby to chase every last drop, I'm in it for best of the body section, both flavor and neutral..

Mars
Because I end up getting 1 gal of 95%+ ABV product after cuts when I do that.

I do 45-50 gal sugar washes at 8%-10% ABV. After it is all stripped and the total collected product is 40% ABV there's 3% left in the boiler. Extracting this using a reflux column gives me 4 gal after cuts. If I don't do this I end up with 3 gal. The final product is perfectly clean and I have compared it to product I have before I started doing this. That's nearly 2 extra gallons of vodka after proofing. It seems well worth it to me.

Stripping DEEP you know, you collect a lot more unwanted substances in comparison to a reflux column. My 3" VM cleans it up perfectly during a spirit run.

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:33 pm
by StillerBoy
Salt Must Flow wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:15 am Stripping DEEP you know, you collect a lot more unwanted substances in comparison to a reflux column.
As usual nothing makes sense, but who knows what "unwanted substances" are, but whatever they may be, I surely don't want them..

Mars

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:49 pm
by Salt Must Flow
StillerBoy wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:33 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:15 am Stripping DEEP you know, you collect a lot more unwanted substances in comparison to a reflux column.
As usual nothing makes sense, but who knows what "unwanted substances" are, but whatever they may be, I surely don't want them..

Mars
In other words, the product that exits a reflux column is higher % ABV in comparison to a basic pot still at the same power level. Therefore pot stilling DEEP into tails comes out at a fraction of the % ABV (more unwanted substances) in comparison to using a reflux column.

Does that make sense now?

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:16 pm
by StillerBoy
Salt Must Flow wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:49 pm Does that make sense now?
No
No matter how deep one goes in stripping for neutral, it's still tails, and they're just junk, no matter what method used..
Reflux does not improve the tail flavor, it just remove some of the water, but the result is still junk (tails)..

Mars

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:24 pm
by Salt Must Flow
StillerBoy wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:16 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:49 pm Does that make sense now?
No
No matter how deep one goes in stripping for neutral, it's still tails, and they're just junk, no matter what method used..
Reflux does not improve the tail flavor, it just remove some of the water, but the result is still junk (tails)..

Mars
You are incorrect. I am literally at the very end of a stripping run as I type with my VM rig. It's coming out at 45% ABV. It's perfectly clear, not foggy and doesn't reek or have the odor of strong tails. There is obviously plenty of alcohol still coming out that is perfectly appropriate to keep for a following spirit run for a neutral spirit.

You made assertions, but never backed any of them up with anything. Have you ever tried what I have described in order to determine whether your statements hold water? I have.

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:44 pm
by StillerBoy
Salt Must Flow wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:24 pm You made assertions, but never backed any of them up with anything. Have you ever tried what I have described in order to determine whether your statements hold water? I have.
I don't have to make assertions.. they are statement made from experiment, experience and common sense.. tails no matter how you want to dress them, are still tails and are junk..
I've long pass the experimenting stage that you are now experiencing.. hopefully one day you'll see the light as you leave the stage of early learning..

Mars

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:52 pm
by Salt Must Flow
StillerBoy wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:44 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:24 pm You made assertions, but never backed any of them up with anything. Have you ever tried what I have described in order to determine whether your statements hold water? I have.
I don't have to make assertions.. they are statement made from experiment, experience and common sense.. tails no matter how you want to dress them, are still tails and are junk..
I've long pass the experimenting stage that you are now experiencing.. hopefully one day you'll see the light as you leave the stage of early learning..

Mars
Yes you did make assertions with nothing to back them up. No, you did not perform an "experiment". You performed a test/tests, not an experiment. Experiment is part of the Scientific Method which has an independent and dependent variable. You are still incorrect, but you can believe what you want despite real world results of much observed and repeatable testing. Perhaps my VM still performs much better than your rig. That's a legitimate possibility.

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:32 pm
by shadylane
StillerBoy wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:16 pm
Reflux does not improve the tail flavor, it just remove some of the water, but the result is still junk (tails)..

Mars
My reflux column do's a good job leaving the tails in the boiler.
My preference for making neutral is to strip with a little reflux, until just before a film of oil appears on top the lowines. Then dilute and redistill with more reflux. Doing it this way makes a clean neutral and gets the most alcohol out of what the yeast made.

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:18 pm
by Salt Must Flow
shadylane wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:32 pm
StillerBoy wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:16 pm
Reflux does not improve the tail flavor, it just remove some of the water, but the result is still junk (tails)..

Mars
My reflux column do's a good job leaving the tails in the boiler.
My preference for making neutral is to strip with a little reflux, until just before a film of oil appears on top the lowines. Then dilute and redistill with more reflux. Doing it this way makes a clean neutral and gets the most alcohol out of what the yeast made.
^ ^ ^ PRECISELY :thumbup:

Since stripping with 2 elements is so fast, I withhold refluxing near the end of the stripping run. I then use one element at 100%. After a while I turn the 2nd element on at 10%-15% power to boost the total power a bit.

Re: Reflux And Tails

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:25 pm
by NZChris
Saltbush Bill wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:46 am You can or could do the same using a plated column/ Flute......run reflux/ loaded plates to compress fores and heads, turn water to deflegmator off for hearts ,,,,,run by power management , then when tails show kick the reflux back in to load plates, that will hold tails back so that you can wring all of the goodness out of the wash.
As with most things distilling there is more than one way to skin the cat.
NZChris wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:37 pm it's possibly not safe to continually re-run tails of tails. It's not an experiment that I'm going to do for everyone.
No need Chris , Ive done it for you , been running the same heads and tails from Rum and UJ washes through my 4 plate column for years now......beyond the first few runs I don't see any accumulation of either.......and I'm still here.
Cant say for a pot still because they dont compress things as much and I don't run a pot that often
What I was giving newbies a heads up about has little resemblance to what you are doing with rum and UJSSM. It is a warning about being greedy when scavenging and concentrating ethanol out of tails only, something neither of us do.

I've never cooled a backset and measured the abv but, going by the temperature at shutdown, it is always well below 2%, sometimes around 0.5%, depending on what I'm making, flavored, neutral, triple distilled, etc..

I understand the logic for turning on reflux to scavenge the last of the ethanol when stripping sugar washes and I don't disagree with that, but I suggest that the product from that should be included in the low wines for that spirit run and not saved separately and combined with similar tails for later.