Vinegar Run : Not sure about it.
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Vinegar Run : Not sure about it.
Hi homedistiller,
I made 2 years ago viewtopic.php?f=15&t=72219&p=7538884#p7538884 a vinegar run in my pot still (and I had some problem with that). I'm doing some research at this moment before doing a 2nd try with a pear William Brandy. Vinegar run concern only new pots (freshly built or purchased).
My concern is about the cleaning. The common process for cleaning is :
Proper cleaning protocol (for a virgin still) is 1) steam clean and water run, 2) pickle cleaning with vinegar/water ('vinegar run' diluting the vinegar 50/50 with water and 3) sacrificial alcohol run....in that order. The sequence successively cleans contaminants left by the previous cleaning runs.
I'm reading some reliable books about the cleaning of copper pot still. They never mention the use of a vinegar run. All theses books (Tanner/Brunner 1982, Haesinger book, Deroy distillateur) give the following possibility of cleaning :
1. Multiple water run. Like a vinegar run so don't put water in the condenser. Useful when the pot was not used during a long time.
2. Put baking soda in the pot and clean the internal with a brush or use cord/string and cloth to clean the liebig. For dirtier area, put hot baking soda and wait one hour. Historic reference use "wood ash" instead of baking soda (book of 1900)
3. Make a baking soda run (Na2CO3) or with sodium hydroxyde (NAOH).
4. Make a citric acid run (only one reference)
Forum says :
Just rinse it with hot water after each run. That's all you need to do. That's it. There is a point that it can be too clean. The natural patena means the copper is doing its job. When you clean it off it has to get it back before it works best again. Kinda like a cast iron Skillet. It needs to be seasoned before it works good. And if you scrub it off. It don't work so good any more.
Just rinse with hot water and let it dry. Done.
Vinegar cleaning should be done once and not again unless you let it sit around for several months/years without use
Everytime when I look into my boiler after a run, it looks different. I clean away the scorched mash, if I alas have some, maybe rinse a few times extra after I ran juniper or anis but thats all. It does not need to shine, better not, even
There is no reaction between copper metal and sodium bicarbonate.
Citric acid does not dissolve copper but it react with the copper oxides and produce copper citrate, which have a low toxicity.
Vinegar + copper give verdigris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdigris which is more toxic. So i'm not sure a vinegar run, is a good idea because there will be always small residus of verdigris in the pot.
Forums says also :
When I used copper packing, I would dip it in a gallon of water with 2 tablespoons baking soda after the citric bath. It would neutralize the acid before storage. ..and baking soda removes smell very effective (better than acids).
So for a cleaning after a long storage I would make in this order :
1) Clean with citric acid and a brush (add a bit salt for efficiency (abrasive) and use citric acid + warm water ). Don't put the copper a long time in the citric bath or it will become too shiny.
2) Rinse with hot water then make a baking soda bath.
3) Rinse with water. Wait a day or 2 so that the copper get it's natural patina.
4) Make 1 or 2 water run
4) Make a cheap cider run (sacrificial run). I would avoid using wine as sacrifical because it contain tanin or other strong aromatics which can stay in the pot after the sacrificial run (I observed that).
Just my thought maybe i'm wrong.
I made 2 years ago viewtopic.php?f=15&t=72219&p=7538884#p7538884 a vinegar run in my pot still (and I had some problem with that). I'm doing some research at this moment before doing a 2nd try with a pear William Brandy. Vinegar run concern only new pots (freshly built or purchased).
My concern is about the cleaning. The common process for cleaning is :
Proper cleaning protocol (for a virgin still) is 1) steam clean and water run, 2) pickle cleaning with vinegar/water ('vinegar run' diluting the vinegar 50/50 with water and 3) sacrificial alcohol run....in that order. The sequence successively cleans contaminants left by the previous cleaning runs.
I'm reading some reliable books about the cleaning of copper pot still. They never mention the use of a vinegar run. All theses books (Tanner/Brunner 1982, Haesinger book, Deroy distillateur) give the following possibility of cleaning :
1. Multiple water run. Like a vinegar run so don't put water in the condenser. Useful when the pot was not used during a long time.
2. Put baking soda in the pot and clean the internal with a brush or use cord/string and cloth to clean the liebig. For dirtier area, put hot baking soda and wait one hour. Historic reference use "wood ash" instead of baking soda (book of 1900)
3. Make a baking soda run (Na2CO3) or with sodium hydroxyde (NAOH).
4. Make a citric acid run (only one reference)
Forum says :
Just rinse it with hot water after each run. That's all you need to do. That's it. There is a point that it can be too clean. The natural patena means the copper is doing its job. When you clean it off it has to get it back before it works best again. Kinda like a cast iron Skillet. It needs to be seasoned before it works good. And if you scrub it off. It don't work so good any more.
Just rinse with hot water and let it dry. Done.
Vinegar cleaning should be done once and not again unless you let it sit around for several months/years without use
Everytime when I look into my boiler after a run, it looks different. I clean away the scorched mash, if I alas have some, maybe rinse a few times extra after I ran juniper or anis but thats all. It does not need to shine, better not, even
There is no reaction between copper metal and sodium bicarbonate.
Citric acid does not dissolve copper but it react with the copper oxides and produce copper citrate, which have a low toxicity.
Vinegar + copper give verdigris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdigris which is more toxic. So i'm not sure a vinegar run, is a good idea because there will be always small residus of verdigris in the pot.
Forums says also :
When I used copper packing, I would dip it in a gallon of water with 2 tablespoons baking soda after the citric bath. It would neutralize the acid before storage. ..and baking soda removes smell very effective (better than acids).
So for a cleaning after a long storage I would make in this order :
1) Clean with citric acid and a brush (add a bit salt for efficiency (abrasive) and use citric acid + warm water ). Don't put the copper a long time in the citric bath or it will become too shiny.
2) Rinse with hot water then make a baking soda bath.
3) Rinse with water. Wait a day or 2 so that the copper get it's natural patina.
4) Make 1 or 2 water run
4) Make a cheap cider run (sacrificial run). I would avoid using wine as sacrifical because it contain tanin or other strong aromatics which can stay in the pot after the sacrificial run (I observed that).
Just my thought maybe i'm wrong.
- still_stirrin
- Master of Distillation
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Re: Vinegar Run : Not sure about it.
Who are you? What is your experience? Are you more knowledgeable than this website?
So....you know better than what has been established by the (consolidated) membership here on “how to properly clean your apparatus?
To all new comers: read through the “New to Distillation/New Distiller’s Reading Lounge/Still Operation Information & Hints”, especially the sections on cleaning a new still. It’ll be beneficial in the long run. And safer too.
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
Re: Vinegar Run : Not sure about it.
There's no reason to do a sacrificial run if your still has been sitting. That's to get rid of flux residue after soldering or oil and other crap from manufacturing. If it's been sitting for a while, you could just rinse it out and go. If you're concerned, go for it with the citric acid and scrub brush, rinse, and use the still.
I prefer to spray it down with starsan, use a brush, and rinse well within a few minutes if my still has been sitting for months. Never let the starsan dry and stay on copper. You'll get blue distillate.
You seem to be severely overthinking this.
I prefer to spray it down with starsan, use a brush, and rinse well within a few minutes if my still has been sitting for months. Never let the starsan dry and stay on copper. You'll get blue distillate.
You seem to be severely overthinking this.
- Noesgaardk
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Re: Vinegar Run : Not sure about it.
That's a bullshit answer.still_stirrin wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:40 pmWho are you? What is your experience? Are you more knowledgeable than this website?
So....you know better than what has been established by the (consolidated) membership here on “how to properly clean your apparatus?
To all new comers: read through the “New to Distillation/New Distiller’s Reading Lounge/Still Operation Information & Hints”, especially the sections on cleaning a new still. It’ll be beneficial in the long run. And safer too.
ss
Just because a lot of people do a thing doesn't mean it can't be questioned or improved upon.
The OP put a lot more thought into his point than you did in yours.
If all you have to say is "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION THE WISDOM OF THOSE WHO CAME BEFORE YOU???"
Maybe you should just keep silent.
Ken
Brewer, distiller, clown
Brewer, distiller, clown
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Re: Vinegar Run : Not sure about it.
This thread is almost a year and half old. The Op hasn't been active since the day after he posted his question. Maybe for good reason, considering the first reply.Noesgaardk wrote: ↑Sat Jan 01, 2022 9:10 amThat's a bullshit answer.still_stirrin wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:40 pmWho are you? What is your experience? Are you more knowledgeable than this website?
So....you know better than what has been established by the (consolidated) membership here on “how to properly clean your apparatus?
To all new comers: read through the “New to Distillation/New Distiller’s Reading Lounge/Still Operation Information & Hints”, especially the sections on cleaning a new still. It’ll be beneficial in the long run. And safer too.
ss
Just because a lot of people do a thing doesn't mean it can't be questioned or improved upon.
The OP put a lot more thought into his point than you did in yours.
If all you have to say is "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION THE WISDOM OF THOSE WHO CAME BEFORE YOU???"
Maybe you should just keep silent.
It's clear [to me] the OP's first language is not english and was seeking to better understand what cleaning he needed to do after two years of his still sitting idle. I fear that might have been lost on SS, or he'd had a few drinks in him.
Nevertheless, we should all aspire to be better about how we help those seeking knowledge, and also how we interact overall.
Fear and ridicule are the tactics of weak-minded cowards and tyrants who have no other leadership talent from which to draw in order to persuade.
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Re: Vinegar Run : Not sure about it.
My 2¢...
On a new still its better to be safe than sorry. No one likes to end up with likker that looks or tastes like ass. Also take into account the waste of money as ingredients arent free.
Id rather spend $20 for some vinegar and another $25 for a jar of Sugarland Shine to drink while running that vinegar. Sounds like a productive Saturday night to me.
On a new still its better to be safe than sorry. No one likes to end up with likker that looks or tastes like ass. Also take into account the waste of money as ingredients arent free.
Id rather spend $20 for some vinegar and another $25 for a jar of Sugarland Shine to drink while running that vinegar. Sounds like a productive Saturday night to me.
-
- Master of Distillation
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Re: Vinegar Run : Not sure about it.
Noobs sometimes post crap info. the next noob reads it and because it is posted on HD
They take it as gospel, and quote it as such. The next noob or others perpetuate that trash info.
there are 22,000+ members here more than a few of which have probably read almost every book,
or read or viewed most of the other sources out there. A noob is tasked with separating the good
from the trash information. removing that trash info would constitute censorship. So the trash remains.
I believe that proof of reading the requiring reading section before a first post would help with noob
confusion, but I have no idea how that could be made to be. most of the accurate information comes
from HD, Some of HD and the external sources need to be sorted through very thoroughly. JUST MY OPINION.
They take it as gospel, and quote it as such. The next noob or others perpetuate that trash info.
there are 22,000+ members here more than a few of which have probably read almost every book,
or read or viewed most of the other sources out there. A noob is tasked with separating the good
from the trash information. removing that trash info would constitute censorship. So the trash remains.
I believe that proof of reading the requiring reading section before a first post would help with noob
confusion, but I have no idea how that could be made to be. most of the accurate information comes
from HD, Some of HD and the external sources need to be sorted through very thoroughly. JUST MY OPINION.
be water my friend
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Re: Vinegar Run : Not sure about it.
"Noobs sometimes post crap info"
And this is exactly problem of this forum when someone experienced posted first time you call him noob.
Who t'a f'k are you to dispute well respected books he refers to?! Just get of your high donkey and stretch your ears to learns something first time in your shallow life.
PS: take it from me, I am noob you some "master destillers know it all" f'ks
Despicable!
And this is exactly problem of this forum when someone experienced posted first time you call him noob.
Who t'a f'k are you to dispute well respected books he refers to?! Just get of your high donkey and stretch your ears to learns something first time in your shallow life.
PS: take it from me, I am noob you some "master destillers know it all" f'ks
Despicable!
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Re: Vinegar Run : Not sure about it.
So after 2 and a half years of silence you pop back onto the forum to post a rant on a 6-month dormant thread, making vague references to another thread... did you log in with the wrong sock-puppet or just get out of bed on the wrong side today?
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo
A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
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Re: Vinegar Run : Not sure about it.
There is better purpose in life than being "homedistiller" authority with "high donkey" status.
Please lear or contribute or just have your special "conributor" place on this site.
Peoples drive for recognition is sometimes stupid
Please lear or contribute or just have your special "conributor" place on this site.
Peoples drive for recognition is sometimes stupid
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Re: Vinegar Run : Not sure about it.
My wife never gets out of bed on the wrong side.
I am always still in bed...
Geoff
I am always still in bed...
Geoff
The Baker