MIXING OLD RUNS, what are the temp cuts ??

[sampvt]

Ive not offended, ive defended.

[Yummyrum]

but the only place I can do my distilling is my bathroom upstairs which my wife allows, but getting up and down stairs isn't easy so unless I am willing to sit on the shitter all day waiting for the jars to fill, Im up and down stairs.

Sam, I’m not trying to be an arse . I understand you have a seriously debilitating physical situation , but this comment worries me . I can assume from that , your main desire for magic numbers is so you can leave your still unattended while it does its thing.

We do not condone leaving stills unattended .

Unless you can find another more convenient place to run your still , perhaps this isn’t the hobby for you .

[ismbardbrunel123]

sampvt,
I know where your coming from asking about temps for cuts....I did my first still pot run about 6-8 weeks ago....i cannot believe how good my "whiskey" tasted,..i have a temp gauge at the bend to my lyne arm..? point of no return..?..( was bought like this)
I lit my boiler, not a clue what to expect.. water on for the condensor, watched the temp gauge as i had nothing else to look at... the gauge was rising, got to around 78 c...got a few drips, then faster, got excited, seemed it ran a bit fast, tuned it in to run slower.......it settled very quickly.....stayed at that temp for an hour, ?,,,i tasted all the time, dipping my finger in, and slurping,...stingy for a while....got 2-3 small jars of stingy, (4 shot/heads..?))
the temp moved ever so slightly, i ignored it, my tasting improved, i believed i was into hearts, liked what i tasted....the temp never moved for over 3 hours...i assumed i was still in hearts land, eventually, the temp started to rise, the stuff came out thinner.....i could taste the watery crap i knew i was looking at tails...
the rest is history, that was my lesson in distilling, i have now just filled, tonight, my 5.5 gallon barrel,(over 6 weeks) with UJSSM, go for that tried and tested, piece of piss to make and an excellent learning curve..
Besides the barrel, i have been drinking "whisky" off the still for that same period, last night i bought a litre and half from tescos for £25....first time in 6-8 weeks....i have hidden a jar till i need it...i have hidden it good (sulk).. i ran my still last night for 7 hours, re cranked up at seven thirty this morning, i am still at it, it's slowed, not sure how to handle it now, speed up ?............i have run off 18 litres of hearts, i will have to shut down shortly as it's getting late, my alcohol, 20 mins ago, is coming off at 75%...? keep at it mate, it will come to you, i know the guys on here can make you feel a little put down, but they mean good, i'm happy from what i've learned, give it time cheers, ray....

[Tabucowboy]

Here is the Guides I use they are awesome
Novice Guide for Cuts (Pot Still)
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 1#p6815752

Better Operation of a Brew Shop CM Still (novice guide)
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11265#p6798133

That should explain how to do cuts.

[jward]

Ive not offended, ive defended.

I am offended by your comments and had given nothing to defend. This really went off of the rails when you started to "defend" yourself and put learning second. I hope the mods lock the thread or even delete it.

[MartinCash]

It seems to be the problem is you're getting defensive because people are not giving you the answer you want to hear, and you're not willing to listen to the advice that's been given. I can see acfixer and still_stirring gave you the answer in the first two replies to your post, and you've been arguing about the point for a long number of posts since. You can't do cuts by temperature, you do them by taste.

Are you hoping the answer is going to change? Because if not, why are we still here arguing about it?

[The Baker]

Must be frustrating for someone who runs a golf forum and appears to be a golf instructor to have limited mobility.

Seems a perfectly reasonable, even sympathetic, comment.

Geoff

[cob]

Ive not offended, ive defended.

Until you understand that the stand that you have made is indefensible, you will learn nothing and are

wasting your time and that of those that are sincerely trying to help.

[sampvt]

OK-OK-OK-OK-OK-...........I GET IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I made a schoolboy error by swallowing the guff fed to me by my local homebrew expert, who seemingly has very little knowledge of distilling but loads of expertise in selling. In my own defence, let me explain..........

I have an interest in making Gin and was assured that the reflux still was my best option. I read up a little and it would appear that this still better suited my needs as it makes better neutral spirit than the pot stills. That was my first misunderstanding. I was assured that the t500 was so easy to operate, all I was told to do was make a wash with turbo 48 hr that gave 18/20 abv, degass it, clear it and fire it into the still. Run the still and discard the first 100ml and run the rest out on a stripping run type basis until it stopped dripping at 60 degrees.

I was then told to run the resultant collected spirit through my rather expensive carbon filter after diluting it down to 40 abv. Thereafter I will have a drinkable spirit I could mix with still spirits flavourings and hey ho, happy days.

NEEDLESS TO SAY, IT DIDNT GO ACCORDING TO PLAN I did everything asked of me and after joining here, I found out my wash was crap, my still wasn't being run right and my so-called neutral alcohol was crap. I experimented with tomato paste washes, kale washes and just recently the best one is wineos sugar wash at 10% abv. So that solved that issue. I was then told the reflux wasn't all it was cracked up to be so I needed a pot still so rather than throw away the t500 i bought a copper alembic dome and WAS ADVISED TO USE THE TEMP GUAGE TO DO CUTS. Hence my post.

I have read as much as my eyes will allow me to do, I have tried as many ideas as people have suggested and everything seems to point at one thing, use a good quality low wine, do cuts on a pot still and smell taste and save the stuff I like. The problem therein is that I don't know what good is.
Ive spent so long tasting crap, even good crap seems great to me. I only put this post up to get is=deas and I wish I had not have done it as it brought with it several pointed relies, probably in some peoples eyes WARRANTED, IT PUT ME ON THE DEFENSIVE BUT LIKE EVERYONE READING THIS, WE ALL STARTED SOMEWHERE AND SOME OF USE LISTEN WHEN BEING LECTURED, SOME OF US IGNORE WHEN BEING LECTURED AND SOME LIKE ME ARGUE.

Most looking at the advice saw the lectures as advice and berated me, I couldn't see that because after being advised or lectured this and that, I became so confused. So to all that wanted to help me and was trying to advise me with tough love, I thank you and apologise if I offended you. To those that posted tongue in cheek stuff and baiting comments with a tint of personal, you know who you are, so lets both agree to swerve each other in the future, iv learned my lesson.

Based on info received, I've decided to put the t500 reflx set up to good use and fire all my failed gins, neutrals and run a strip to get 92% which I will then run through the pot still set up doing foreshots, heads hearts and tails. Ill filter our the hearts as I've go the canon filter set up anyway and ill save my hearts to make gin with doing it the Odins way. The heads and tails Ive collected can then be introduced back into the next stripping rin when my next wash clears.

Obviously ill hit issues on the way, but hopefully if I do, I may be afforded the luxury of being greeted, on here, with the normal protocol as I'm sure everyone on here agrees.

If anyone thinks my latest idea needs tweaking, please feel free and incidentally, I've moved my whole operation down stairs to the spare back bedroom and ill be running my operation from there. This fracass did some good, the wife felt sorry for me. lol.

[jonnys_spirit]

Hi Sampvt -

Sounds like you want to make gin.

For neutral you probably want to use a tried and true sugar wash recipe like you mentioned. Three strips to about 40% low wines then a reflux spirit run fractioned out to 20-25 numbered jars. Choose your fractions to blend into your heads/hearts/tails cuts. Reserve the feints for an all feints run once you have enough saved but the hearts from your reflux spirit run will be your neutral base for your gin.

From there follow the OEG recipe and pot still the gin macerate - also making cuts as indicated in the recipe.

Reflux is best for neutral and pot still for flavored product - in a nutshell. That should get you going.

You also don’t need the activated carbon filter and shouldn’t be using any plastics or plastic tubing in the product path because high abv ethanol is a strong solvent and you’ll end up with dissolved plastic in your likker which is dangerous and doesn’t taste that good either.

Sounds like you’ve got some suspect product you’re not happy with and to be honest it might be better and easier to not try to save that fir drinking. You could dilute to 40% abv and reflux it all to a high abv and use it for hand sanitizer or lighter fluid.

Good luck and cheers!
-jonny

[Corsaire]

Here's my thinking on how to best proceed:

Ignore the bad stuff you have now. Try to clean them up when you have a better understanding, or chalk them up to lessons learned and ditch them or keep them as a souvenir to see how far you've come.

Start fresh.

I understand you have both pot and reflux heads for your still. That's great. You're all set.

Pick a neutral wash, you like wineo's so maybe that one.
Make enough of it to fill your boiler three times.

Run the ferment through the pot still. Make no cuts, don't look at temps. Collect everything until your total collected spirit measures between 30 and 40% abv. This is called a stripping run, it gets rid of a lot of water. Taste isn't important here. This product is called low wines.

Repeat this with the rest of your ferment.

Combine the 3 strip runs into your boiler. You should have a full boiler charge of 30-40% low wines.

Now put on the reflux head. Do a spirit run, and collect what comes off the still in a large number of fractions.
You can smell and, after diluting, taste what comes off. Don't be greedy. Keep what smells and tastes good, discard the rest.

This will become the base spirit for your gin. You want this to be free of off tastes, so be strict on your cuts.

I know doing 4 runs seems like more work, but trust me, the results are worth it. And strip runs can be run fast.

Now that you have a base spirit you can add botanicals to this and run it to a pot still for a final time. Read Odin's easy gin and follow it to the letter.

[fzbwfk9r]

I understand and appreciate what Corsaire said

it makes a lot of sense to me, and I'll remember this when I get into neutrals.

Thanks for that!

( now to finish me Boka )

[sampvt]

ive started over. Just put 7 x 25l wineos ol sugar wash on. Sitting nice at 1070sg. Stripped the old oddments out and used them as a test run on the new alembic set up and everything went very well. I fired it back through the potstill after stripping it and sending it through the reflux and I did the cuts as per advice. Ive now got 10 liters of really nice neutral. Something I quite like when I taste, so I'm gonna lave it and once the new stuffs fermented out and finished, ill put both mixes side by side and see whats what.

[jonnys_spirit]

Hi Sampvt - Just to be clear on the ferment/strip/spirit protocol...

The general protocol for neutral is to strip your wash with a pot still - three to four boiler charges should produce enough low wines to fully charge the boiler. Then spirit run with the reflux column and collect in fractions to be cut.

You could also do a "one-and-done" with the reflux from a straight wash (without stripping) but spirit running the larger quantity and higher ABV of stripped low wines works very well for easier cuts - just due to sheer volume...

Good luck!
-jonny

[Saltbush Bill]

Running low wines in a T500 reflux rather than wash makes a big improvement in product quality.
Running the still more slowly than manufacturer specification will also help a lot. Slower = more reflux= purer/ cleaner spirit.

[sampvt]

I just bought a voltage regulator that's got a dial on it to lower the voltage, ergo the strength of the current flow through the element. What I'm having a problem understanding is that water management and a high flow rate through the column condenser slows the spirit coming out, so why would the lower power matter, or does it. My plate value is 2000w so if I reduce the voltage it reduces the plate wattage value to say 1500 or as low as 1000w. This is where I get confused, a 1000w v a 2000w plate differentiates only the time it takes the wash to reach boiling temp, so where is the benefit. Or is it something I'm missing. Once boiling temp has been reached, a 250w plate element will keep it boiling. Can someone explain this for me, but in the interest of all things right, ill hook it up and run it but at what rate, or is it a suck it and see.

[jonnys_spirit]

Once it's up to boiling temp, more power = more vapor.

Cheers!
-jonny

[ismbardbrunel123]

Once it's up to boiling temp, more power = more vapor.

Cheers!
-jonny

Hi JS, does this also apply to a pot still, iv'e always thought once it's boiling it's boiling...?

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

If you can control output with condensor, but can't control the amount of vapor rising in the column, then you put the vapor between a rock and a hard place. You get an overfilled column, state known as flooding.

There lies the big secret to running any reflux column. You need to control the amount of vapor going up the column, while simultaneously controlling the amount of distillate coming back down the column, to both perfectly balance the amount held in the column (equilibrium), while allowing for enough extra to be pushed through to the collection rate of your liking.

Also, as the run progresses the amount of vapor produced drops for any constant state of power input (rising overall boiling point), so it is a constant state of turning the power up a little, adjusting cooling flow to match, column now floods, so turn down power or cooling rate, readjust the other, cruise for a while, repeat and continue. Every still, type of still, and packing is affected differently by these forces, and experience makes any of them easier.

Nothing above can be fixed by tempature. It's an art, and done with educated balance between the 2 control points.

This differs as a pot still's production is only driven by 1 varible, the power. For this reason, driving a reflux is like a stick shift car, and a pot still is an auto trans.

[ismbardbrunel123]

Thanks for that Crazy, settled me down a bit, will be starting my Boka up this weekend, i have a good idea how it works, just getting that balance right i imagine..

[sampvt]

Has anyone on here got a t500 with a variable voltage controller that can give me some ideas how to run it. Do I get the boil up to speed and throttle back to half power and adjust the condenser flow to get a desired trickle then when the flow slows, crank up the power a little when the alcohol / ethanol leaves the wash and the tails that need more power start to achieve a boil.Any ideas will help, thanks.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Once it's up to boiling temp, more power = more vapor.

Cheers!
-jonny

Hi JS, does this also apply to a pot still, iv'e always thought once it's boiling it's boiling...?

Yes, same physics in boiler, regardless of the condensor . Drop a gallon of water in a pot and boil it. How long does it take to go dry on your electric stove? Drop a gallon of water on the surface of the sun. How long would it take to boil dry? Instant? There is no more nor any less vapor in either scenario. Just how fast it is all put into vapor form. The correct power input for distilling is somewhere between an electric stove, and the surface of the sun.

[sampvt]

Ive just boiled a pan of water and at 100 on my temp meter, it wash belting steam out, I turned the ring down to 3 and the steam got less but the temp stayed at 100 so your theory is sound, 100light boil, 100 steady boil and 100 degrees on a heavy boil, the only difference is the volatility of the boil, not the temp. Thanks

[jonnys_spirit]

The physics involving the sun might be slightly different but on an earthly-bound scale yes lol...

When stripping in a pot still we generally run it hard and fast - as hard and fast as the product condenser will knock it down.

On a pot still spirit run it's typically dialed back to "a pencil lead stream".

On a reflux column - see SCD's post above.

Cheers!
-jonny

[zed255]

In my opinion, the voltage controller is best used with your alembic top, use it to reduce the power fed to the boiler to control the rate of production. Heat-up at full power until the vapour approaches to very top, by feel. Reduce power to maybe half until first drips then adjust for desired rate. The setting will need a little fiddling as the still comes online. Set for drips during foreshots, fast drips / broken stream for heads and thin stream for balance. The power will need slight adjustments as the boiler depletes the charge of alcohol.

It is not (or should not be) needed for the reflux column, you drive output with the cooling water flow through the reflux condenser. Only exception would be if slow production (high reflux) results in the column flooding, which based on the column height, diameter and supplied packing of the T500 is not likely to happen. Lower outlet water temperature slows production and higher speeds it.

I don't own a T500 but know someone who does.

[Saltbush Bill]

Has anyone on here got a t500 with a variable voltage controller that can give me some ideas how to run it.

Early in my distilling days I spent a lot of time using a T500 .....but never with a controller.
My suggestion is this.......learn to use the still properly using only water flow to the reflux condenser first ( a T500 is a CM still "cooling management")
Aim for a steam of spirit coming from the output that is just a tiny bit above a broken stream, a broken stream is better but also much much more time consuming. You do NOT need to look at the temp gauge to do that.....it only tells you water temp......not how much spirit is leaving the still.
Learn to run properly that way before playing with the controller. Trying to juggle /balance... reflux/water flow and power input at the same time is going to confuse hell out of you until you learn more.
Imo the T500 power element is reasonably well suited to the size of the boiler / reflux still......using a controller might give you a small advantage once you really get to understand other aspects of the still and get better at making cuts. Till then leave it in the box it came in. If you really want to play with it use it with the pot still head you have......learn what it does with that.

[Saltbush Bill]

ou may need to run without the restriction orifice in the product outlet to really see the results.

on their own for more control and either only run the large orifice or no orifice.

Zed are you sure your not getting two different stills confused .....a T500 is a CM and has no restriction orifices as far as I am aware. The Pure Distilling stills like the one below are LM and do have such things.
There is also no need to separate the cooling lines on a T500......it wont make a scrap of difference.

[zed255]

Sorry, I do think you are right about the orifices and that I had confused the T500 and the Pure Distilling products. Apologies to the OP if I've confused, I will edit to correct. The basic jist of the post I believe remains correct otherwise.

[Saltbush Bill]

All else is correct

[bluefish_dist]

I just bought a voltage regulator that's got a dial on it to lower the voltage, ergo the strength of the current flow through the element. What I'm having a problem understanding is that water management and a high flow rate through the column condenser slows the spirit coming out, so why would the lower power matter, or does it. My plate value is 2000w so if I reduce the voltage it reduces the plate wattage value to say 1500 or as low as 1000w. This is where I get confused, a 1000w v a 2000w plate differentiates only the time it takes the wash to reach boiling temp, so where is the benefit. Or is it something I'm missing. Once boiling temp has been reached, a 250w plate element will keep it boiling. Can someone explain this for me, but in the interest of all things right, ill hook it up and run it but at what rate, or is it a suck it and see.

For a reflux column, the power input ie watts in determines how much vapor is created. How fast it boils. Then when you know the diameter of the column, you can determine vapor speed. A quick google search will get you vapor speed calculators. Aim for 15-20 fps. 15 will be cleaner than 20, but output will be slower.

Your reflux is then determined by how much of that boiled off vapor is returned as liquid. I have never looked at a T500, but I assume it’s a CM style based on other posts. This means more coolant flow gives more condensed vapor back down the column. For a LM, CM, and VM the lower the takeoff rate, the higher the reflux. Now this is where I think temperature is very useful. If you measure the temperature at the still head then you know the abv of your vapor. By adjusting the reflux rate (takeoff rate) you can control how pure (ABV) a spirit you are making. This means that by holding a set temperature at the still head you can control your output abv. Still has nothing to do with cuts, but it can help you drive your still.
Temperature and abv are an inverse relationship. Lower temp is higher abv. It also depends on air pressure. This means weather fronts can change your abv between runs for the same temperature or even during a run.